Tyler Durden Workout

UKFitGuy, the only article you provided worth half a crap is the first one. And it’s truly only worth half a crap. I’ll get to that in a minute. Your other sources are well.com and espn.com? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That about sums up your argument.

Now the first, “article.”

A. This isn’t a scientific study. Where are the participants? What are the paramaters? What is this guy backing up his claims with? I could write an article about how being “fit” makes you ignorant and without reason and use you as an example, but that doesn’t make it credible evidence to a reasoning mind.

B. “The majority of the studies involve hospitalized patients who are treated for prolonged periods for various diseases, such as anemia, renal insufficiency, impotence, and dysfunction of the pituitary gland.”

The majority of his observations were on people who WERE ALREADY SICK! There’s a huge difference between healthy people and sick people with regards to their predisposition to getting other ailments and having worse reactions to medications. With your vast medical knowledge, I’m sure you would have known that.

C. He actually says a lot of stuff that we already know, but he doesn’t provide numbers for anything at all.

“Especially the AS containing a 17-alkyl group have potentially more adverse affects, in particular to the liver.”

Yes, we know that, but he neglects to mention dosage, duration, the patients’ general health at the time, actual percentage of people who get true, permanent liver dysfunction from this. This is a SORELY lacking source.

D. " Testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate and other injectable anabolic steroids seem to have little adverse effects on the liver."

Shocking, just shocking.

My aspirin comment stands. Your ignorance on the matter is not an argument. For that matter, I’ll add that several antibiotics are more hepatotoxic than anabolic steroids as well. People take them with and without a doctor’s prescription all the time without killing themselves.

Yes, steroids increase “bulk” more than food. Your argument was that something that put on muscle in a short time was bad for you. I provided an example of something else that does. Now you’re backtracking because you’re wrong. Thanks for admitting it.

And what is this crap about taking a single medication for a course and moving on? Many older folks are on multiple medications with various toxicities for YEARS without clinical consequence. You’re again using an extremely ignorant argument. I do like how you speak as if you were a doctor though.

“How many people do you know that take aspirin longe term at full dose other then prescribed to them by their GP?”

Again, ignorance. I know LOTS of people who take far more than the recommended dose of aspirin, Tylenol, other NSAIDS, narcotics, etc. for daily pain for years on end. People do this, on their own, without a doctor’s supervision, every single day. What was your argument again?

“Steroids are recreational drugs just like Heroin, Cocaine and ecstacy that are dangerous and abused by the people that take them.”

You have got to be freaking kidding me. First of all, they have LEGITIMATE medical uses. That alone takes care of your statement. Secondly, have you ever read a thing T-mag has published? Why exactly are you here again?

“They arent illegal for nothing, it is for a reason!”

They’re illegal because of ignorant persons like yourself, who see everything in this world as black and white, and you’re always on the white side.

“You say you’re a GP, what are you, a quack?”

I didn’t say I was a GP. I honestly don’t know where you got that from. It doesn’t really surprise me, though, coming from somebody who gets his info from espn.com and well.com. I’m not a “quack” either. I’m somebody who doesn’t have a knee-jerk response to something without thoroughly investigating it first. I weight the pros and cons, real-world evidence, and scientific literature before I render a judgement. In short, I educate myself rather than fall prey to being a part of “the general public’s opinion.” You should try to do the same.

UKFitguy, one other thing. You’ll notice that you don’t have any board vets (people whose opinions I actually care about because they’re informed and well-read) backing you on this. Actually, come to think of it, you don’t have anybody backing you on this. There might be a reason.

DocT, apologies, when you said you were a doctoir I presumed a GP or medical doctor… evidentally not.

The links I posted were examples of many you can find from different sources that point out the side effects of steroids… you can get them from a variety of places. You show me any serious site that isnt promotional about steroid usage or isnt about body building that gives a balanced argument. Infact, show me a body building site that points out the REAL dangers of steroids… er you cant, coz they wont because they support them. It dont mean that it’s safe though!

Couple of points…

I dont expect many people on here to back me up because it is largely a pro-steroid site aimed at body builders…naturally I’ll be in the minority, but that doesnt mean I’m not right!

Now, you say steroids have LEGITIMATE use, which I did say so myself, yet they arent used in their intended LEGITIMATE use by body builders… so your argument falls down there.

Yes, we know aspirin and other substances are hepatoxic, that’s not the argument… but do people take aspirin to build their muscles or to look good? The fact is those substances are taken as a remedy to an ailment, steroids used for body building arent! You have no argument there! So what if other substances fuck your liver up as well, they arent the ones used recreationally by body builders, steroids are!!! So because otehr substances are bad it doesnt matter that steroids are too??? Guffaw guffaw gu-fucking-faw

Now then, a question: do you think it’s not unhealthy to put on a large amount of bulk/weight/muscle in a month from steroid usage? Quick weight-gain in such a manner isnt bad for you?

I just think it’s rather funny that you, some nobody, thinks you are right and the established medical world is wrong! Talk about EGO. Funny that you seem to have access to studies and information that apparently the medical community hasnt seen. Funy that you seem to be able to have an informed view and the medicla establishment doesnt.

Funny that… YOU’RE FUCKING WRONG!!!

As a doctor who lurks here but seldom posts, let me just say that DocT is right on the money. UKFitguy, you are very misinformed. I wish I had time in my schedule to elaborate, but it would take hours to point out all your mistakes, assumptions, and misconceptions.

Geeezus, UKFitguy: get out of the T/N forum, already. Post your opinions over on the Steroids forum, ‘k? DocT has been doin’ a excellent job here, and I can honestly say that he’s the winner. Hands down.

I'm a drug free competitive bodybuilder. I DO NOT promote androgens. There are many like me, too. BTW: muscle is considered LBM, *ahem* LEAN Body Mass. It ain't "bulk". Fat is bulk. Anyways, most "bodybuilding" sites do point out the negatives of steroid use. Just about any discussion board on steroid use, the people there will lay out any/all negatives. Their goal is to inform others of potential dangers of "abusing" steroids. For instance, there are some women who can take winny with no sides. But some others who can't. Some who can handle anavar...etc. What I'm saying is that if you indeed knew of anything you were talking about, you wouldn't be saying alot of what has been said. The bodybuilding community is a mixed group - and includes "drug free" and those that have used or are using. That's the reality. If you choose to not take the drugs, so be it. It's your perogative. But, in the meantime, get to know the facts, before you spout out inane information. This site ain't "pro steroid" it is "Pro Information".

As for this here, Brad Pitt stuff? You know, millions of women may consider him sexy, but I ain't one of them millions. A sexy man has a brain in his head. And can call his own shots. Mr. Pitt, is as good as a performing monkey. Minus the hair. You come to this site, read all the fabulous information on how to optimize your training, your diet and then you want to look like....Brad Pitt? That's the rub of the original question. Man, this thread is SOOOO done.

UKFitGuy, my, we’re getting testy, aren’t we? Your apologies are not needed as I could care less about your opinion. You just assumed AGAIN, that because I said I wasn’t a GP that I’m not an MD. Will you ever learn?

The links you posted were bullshit. Saying there’s more of that is like saying that there’s a lot more Body for Life stuff out there. I don’t care!! It’s crap. No, wait, you’re into the Body for Life crap. My apologies, oh fit one.

T-mag is not a “promotional” site about steroids. It’s one topic discussed by experts in the field who have both scientific and real-world experience. You’re so damned into trusting your MD without questioning him in the slightest that your reasoning ability (if you ever had it) has gone down the shitter. You haven’t provided ONE single piece of evidence to back up your claims, and your arguments (i.e. rapid weight gain, aspirin) are ignorant and wrong. Your claim of “medical knowledge” is laughable as you’ve demonstrated none.

“Infact, show me a body building site that points out the REAL dangers of steroid”

You’re basing this on the assumption that everybody else LIES and only YOU are correct. People here are more than willing to tell you side effects of prolonged, heavy usage. I’ll tell you the same thing. There’s a huge difference between use and abuse, though not in your black and white world.

The “intended use” of anabolic steroid is anabolism and anticatabolism whether it’s in cachectic patients or not. But I suppose you know better, right?

“Yes, we know aspirin and other substances are hepatoxic, that’s not the argument… but do people take aspirin to build their muscles or to look good?”

Oh good lord, you weren’t even arguing that an hour ago. You’ve completely changed your argument when you had no further point. The fact is that a common drug like aspirin is more hepatoxic than the vast majority of anabolic steroids. You haven’t refuted that. You’ve just tried to change the subject.

“do you think it’s not unhealthy to put on a large amount of bulk/weight/muscle in a month from steroid usage?”

Tell me what’s unhealthy about it. You provide the accusations. The burden is yours to prove. What EXACTLY is unhealthy about putting on muscle rapidly?

“I just think it’s rather funny that you, some nobody, thinks you are right and the established medical world is wrong!”

Nobody, ooh, you got me there. Rapier wit I must say. The “established medical world” has been wrong about a lot of things. The vast majority of them are still wrong about nutrition. How many studies do you see about anabolic steroids in healthy young males do you see? Go look on espn.com or wherever it is you use for your research. The fact is that very little exists and most people extrapolate information from studies on different patient populations. That’s NOT how science works. Just like a supplement that works in severed mice limbs doesn’t necessarily work in weight-training individuals, you can’t apply studies in decrepit, sickly old people to young, healthy males. But you knew that already, right?

“Funny that you seem to have access to studies and information that apparently the medical community hasnt seen.”

I should say the same to you, as you haven’t provided one scientific study (or even a friggin real world anecdote) to back up your claims. The burden of proof is upon YOU. YOU make the claims. YOU haven’t backed them up with anything but bullshit.

“I dont expect many people on here to back me up because it is largely a pro-steroid site aimed at body builders…naturally I’ll be in the minority, but that doesnt mean I’m not right!”

Here, sir, you are correct. It's your countless flawed arguments that mean you're not right! Is it going to take more voices laying in on the side of DocT to put this thing to rest? If so, here is one more.

I never said I liked BLF. But I do think its a good starting point for beginners. Blf is a good beginning but its only for 12 weeks what are people going to do after that? Thats what I hate about BLF I think its a basic progam thats all it is BASIC!As for steroid goes I do feel that we need to explore the avenues on why we are using it. If you are not in competing or in a sport why use it? There number of cases of people abusing steroid and thats where the problem lies not the drug itself. DocT Stop, bring me to another thread. I don’t do roids, but I don’t feel its nothing wrong if you are 100% healthy and is competing in a sport or show. To get to that competive edge you almost need to resort to it. Since everonelse is doing it to. I don’t do it personally.

Ahhhh, that explains a lot, ukfitguy is into body for life? I wonder if he knows that Bill Phillips helped write the Anabolic Review, and was once a hardcore steroids guru. To cleric: since it seems youre a newbie to this forumn Ill go easy on you, athletes perform BEST at 8-12 percent, being at 4-7% body fat is not normal, once you get that low you compromise performance. Some of the better “fit” athletes in the world, NCAA wrestlers have an average body fat of 9.63 percent, with the averages being form 8.4-10.4. Even though wrestlers COULD compete with 5 percent bf, they dont.

Fitone, what in the holy hell are you talking about?

this your quote from above “It’s crap. No, wait, you’re into the Body for Life crap. My apologies, oh fit one.” What do mean by Oh fit one?" I am just trying to explain myself now who’s the one attacking who?

Can we PLEASE kill this thread so there’s actually productive things on the first page of the forum? All this venom takes up half the frigging page and valuable info is getting pushed to page 2. Fitone, if you want to argue with Doc and the others about steroids, the steroids or off topic forum would be a great place to re-kindle the war.

Nick, I couldn’t agree more. There is nothing more to say.

Fitone, you’re an idiot. I wasn’t even addressing you in that post.

I still maintain that brad pitt was more than 165 pounds at 5’11" or whatever height he was.

I do agree with DocT 100% and I also understand this thread needs to
come to an end but there is one thing I wonder about.

Patricia, I respect your opinion and I was wondering what you meant when
you said that a sexy man can call his shots.

I don’t like his movies and do not think of him as a model in any way, but how do we know whether Brad Pitt is calling his own shots or not?

Does being an actor/actress mean that you are not calling your own shots?

Three hour shag sessions with Jen Aniston, every other day should help. The thrusting motion if done in full range, provided you have the rope to do it is great for the core. The hold in the pound position is validatd by static contraction training. Should you want variety, hold dear Jen up and this will hit your Bi’s, (biceps, not bisexuals) and posterior chain.