Truth About Bulking and Dave Tate

Training Bodybuilding
161

[quote]Contach wrote:
Mykayl wrote:
personally, i just eat as much as hunger tells me to. the stronger and bigger i get, the more my hunger tells me to eat. if i overeat, i get fat; if i undereat, i lose fat and impede hypertrophy/strength. that’s all know. bodybuilding is 10% science, and 90% intuition.

and what part statistics?[/quote]

i’m making a generalization based on my subjective experience, and from what i’ve seen from other people i’ve trained with over the years. my point is that it’s highly subjective; there is no exact calorie count, and no precise clinical trials that apply to everyone.

all we have is a basic sketch; it’s up to us to flesh out our own skeletons by listening to what they tell us. a 3000 calorie a day diet would make me a fatass, but some guys my weight (200 lbs) lose weight on that.

i train 6 days a week, and i still can’t eat more than 4 meals a day; i struggle to put down that many. i don’t even bother to count calories or grams of protien, carbs, whatever; i just eat what tastes good. it works perfect for me; i’ve gained 20 lbs lean mass since august, and no additional bodyfat. others might not be so fortunate.

i just know that instinct will always rule over statistics when it comes to something as subjective as bulking up.

162

A point I’ve yet to seem touched upon in this thread is that bulking for powerlifting and bulking for bodybuilding are two completly unrealated beasts.

In powerlifting the goal is to pack on weight to increase leverages etc in order to become stronger, fat can be just as beneficial as gained muscle to an extent in this case.

Whereas with bodybuilding the focus is on increased muscle size on stage.

Sooo… my point is, Dave Tate probably didn’t bulk up to gain muscle, he bulked to ge stronger. I think that nulifies alot of the retarded arguments I’ve read in this thread.

163

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Sooo… my point is, Dave Tate probably didn’t bulk up to gain muscle, he bulked to ge stronger. I think that nulifies alot of the retarded arguments I’ve read in this thread.[/quote]

This is like saying “I reinsulated my house to save on heating bills in the winter so it must be the wrong way to save on air conditioning in the summer.”

What difference does it make why he did it. The fact is he did and the result is the same.

164

[quote]Hanley wrote:
In powerlifting the goal is to pack on weight to increase leverages etc in order to become stronger, fat can be just as beneficial as gained muscle to an extent in this case.
[/quote]

I can’t totally agree with this statement. I agree that carrying extra weight will give you more leverage, but I disagree that it is just as beneficial.

If Dave Tate had the choice of adding 50lbs of muscle or 50lbs of fat strictly for powerlifting performance, I guarantee that he would choose the muscle, and he would be able to lift heavier weights.

I think most PL’ers make sure they eat enough not to sacrifice any muscle gain, but they are still trying to pack on as much muscle as possible, which in turn leads to greater strength gains. If they don’t have to worry about a weight class, then in general they don’t worry about the extra fat.

Regardless, I think Dave Tate was concerned with how much muscle he added, he probably just wasn’t worried about symmetry or BF. In doing so, he was able to gain muscle at the greatest rate by not staying just a few hundred calories above maintenance.

165

[quote]Roland Fisher wrote:
Monopoly19 wrote:
Roland Fisher wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Read about “Dee”:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=46988&tid=124

Funny as hell, thanks!

Where did the article say that Dee needed to gain fat? It didn’t, it said Dee needed to gain weight to get stronger.

Roland

It’s one in the same.
Really? Gaining fat and gaining weight is one and the same? If that were true, the best way would be to eat until you puke, then keep eating. The choices should be the highest of calories as well. By doing this we would gain as much weight as possible and this would make us look just like Dave Tate does now I guess. I’d rather gain muscle than fat, maybe you like fat. Am I afraid of fat? Nope, I’m just not going to focus on it, I’m going to focus on muscle gain. Will some fat come with the muscle gain? Yes, it has for me at least. The difference between focusing on weight or focusing on muscle is that I might gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 1 pound of fat by focusing on muscle. In the exact same amount of time, if I focus on weight, I may gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 7 pounds of fat. Which is better? Don’t answer, it’s rhetorical. Are these numbers pulled out of the air? Nope, I’ve done both scenarios, those are from experience. It really isn’t that hard to measure your body comp. once a month and keep a training log. If performance is slipping and I’m not getting more muscle, it’s time to add calories.

Muscle gain is going to come with some fat gain.
I doesn’t have to, but it easier, and probably quicker to.

I love CT’s stuff, but to say that you shouldn’t bulk over 10% is fuggin crazy. It would take most people 10 years to put on 10lbs.
Who cares about most people? Most people don’t even train. For those of us who do, it doesn’t take much effort to measure body comp once every two weeks or month. It doesn’t take much effort to log the workouts either. By doing so we can know that by eating x calories a day we gained y muscle and z fat. When we don’t gain at our max anymore, add calories, when we gain more fat than before without more muscle being added, drop calories. Simple.

Monopoly

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up CT, I hadn’t made it all the way through yet.

So you post first and read second, try the opposite.
Roland.[/quote]

I’m not even going to take the time to continue arguing with you. At 6" and 155, 30lbs is friggen easy. Put on another 30 the same way. With your ideas and theories it’s going to take a while. I’m all for gaining as little fat as possible, but I don’t have to have my abs year round either.

Monopoly

166

[quote]Modi wrote:
Hanley wrote:
In powerlifting the goal is to pack on weight to increase leverages etc in order to become stronger, fat can be just as beneficial as gained muscle to an extent in this case.

I can’t totally agree with this statement. I agree that carrying extra weight will give you more leverage, but I disagree that it is just as beneficial.

If Dave Tate had the choice of adding 50lbs of muscle or 50lbs of fat strictly for powerlifting performance, I guarantee that he would choose the muscle, and he would be able to lift heavier weights.

I think most PL’ers make sure they eat enough not to sacrifice any muscle gain, but they are still trying to pack on as much muscle as possible, which in turn leads to greater strength gains. If they don’t have to worry about a weight class, then in general they don’t worry about the extra fat.

Regardless, I think Dave Tate was concerned with how much muscle he added, he probably just wasn’t worried about symmetry or BF. In doing so, he was able to gain muscle at the greatest rate by not staying just a few hundred calories above maintenance.[/quote]

BULLSHIT.

I never said that fat and muscle will increase strength and leverage the same amount, I said to an extent they have similar effects.

Dave has said all he was concerned about in past articles was “getting fucking huge”. OBVIOUSLY he wanted to gain more muscle than fat, but my statement was that to him the end goal was a bigger total. Not a nicer physique. So as a result of this extra WEIGHT (both muscle AND fat) he got stronger

Hence my original point that bulking to increase your total and bulking in the same manner (ie eating fast food 3/4x a day) to become a better bodybuilder aren’t neccessarily parrallel ideas.

Now I’m not disputing that fact that you need to relax the belt a few notches to gain muscle, in fact the best results I’ve ever had was post-cutting where the goal was for me to simply increase my bodyweight for an upcoming PL meet so I’d be stronger. I just happened to gain a shit load of muscle mass out of it too.

167

[quote]Monopoly19 wrote:
Roland Fisher wrote:
Monopoly19 wrote:
Roland Fisher wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Read about “Dee”:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=46988&tid=124

Funny as hell, thanks!

Where did the article say that Dee needed to gain fat? It didn’t, it said Dee needed to gain weight to get stronger.

Roland

It’s one in the same.
Really? Gaining fat and gaining weight is one and the same? If that were true, the best way would be to eat until you puke, then keep eating. The choices should be the highest of calories as well. By doing this we would gain as much weight as possible and this would make us look just like Dave Tate does now I guess. I’d rather gain muscle than fat, maybe you like fat. Am I afraid of fat? Nope, I’m just not going to focus on it, I’m going to focus on muscle gain. Will some fat come with the muscle gain? Yes, it has for me at least. The difference between focusing on weight or focusing on muscle is that I might gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 1 pound of fat by focusing on muscle. In the exact same amount of time, if I focus on weight, I may gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 7 pounds of fat. Which is better? Don’t answer, it’s rhetorical. Are these numbers pulled out of the air? Nope, I’ve done both scenarios, those are from experience. It really isn’t that hard to measure your body comp. once a month and keep a training log. If performance is slipping and I’m not getting more muscle, it’s time to add calories.

Muscle gain is going to come with some fat gain.
I doesn’t have to, but it easier, and probably quicker to.

I love CT’s stuff, but to say that you shouldn’t bulk over 10% is fuggin crazy. It would take most people 10 years to put on 10lbs.
Who cares about most people? Most people don’t even train. For those of us who do, it doesn’t take much effort to measure body comp once every two weeks or month. It doesn’t take much effort to log the workouts either. By doing so we can know that by eating x calories a day we gained y muscle and z fat. When we don’t gain at our max anymore, add calories, when we gain more fat than before without more muscle being added, drop calories. Simple.

Monopoly

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up CT, I hadn’t made it all the way through yet.

So you post first and read second, try the opposite.
Roland.

I’m not even going to take the time to continue arguing with you. At 6" and 155, 30lbs is friggen easy. Put on another 30 the same way. With your ideas and theories it’s going to take a while. I’m all for gaining as little fat as possible, but I don’t have to have my abs year round either.

Monopoly[/quote]

Really good point.

If you’re Roland Fisher, it is damn easy to slap on 30 lbs of muscle without adding much bodyfat, if any. Why? Because you are about as scrawny as a grown man can be. Just sacking up enough to train hard and eat a decent amount of food will get you to a more normal bodyweight. In Roland’s case, about 185. At this point, you will look like a normal person. Not a very lofty goal for a lifter.

Going from normal to pretty well built will be a harder, longer process. You’ll have to accept some more fat gain and slower results. You may have to be smarter with your training. Once you’re at this point, getting totally jacked is really fucking hard. I’m trying to get there, and it’s a whole different ballgame. If I were to train and eat the way I did to get over 200 lbs., I would regress at this point. It’s harder…and it’s a place Roland Fisher has never been, will never be, and doesn’t know the first thing about.

There’s a reason Lee Priest looks the way he does in the offseason. There’s a reason Chris Thibaudeau was able to make the transformation he did in such a short period of time. There’s a reason Dave Tate was able to do the same. If they’d listened to someone like Roland from the beginning of their training careers, aside from being so turned off to the whole endeavor that they probably would have just quit, they surely wouldn’t be sporting the kind of muscle they have today.

Think about it Roland. To yourself.

168

[quote]Ramo wrote:
Really good point.

If you’re Roland Fisher, it is damn easy to slap on 30 lbs of muscle without adding much bodyfat, if any. Why? Because you are about as scrawny as a grown man can be. Just sacking up enough to train hard and eat a decent amount of food will get you to a more normal bodyweight. In Roland’s case, about 185. At this point, you will look like a normal person. Not a very lofty goal for a lifter.

Going from normal to pretty well built will be a harder, longer process. You’ll have to accept some more fat gain and slower results. You may have to be smarter with your training. Once you’re at this point, getting totally jacked is really fucking hard. I’m trying to get there, and it’s a whole different ballgame. If I were to train and eat the way I did to get over 200 lbs., I would regress at this point. It’s harder…and it’s a place Roland Fisher has never been, will never be, and doesn’t know the first thing about.

There’s a reason Lee Priest looks the way he does in the offseason. There’s a reason Chris Thibaudeau was able to make the transformation he did in such a short period of time. There’s a reason Dave Tate was able to do the same. If they’d listened to someone like Roland from the beginning of their training careers, aside from being so turned off to the whole endeavor that they probably would have just quit, they surely wouldn’t be sporting the kind of muscle they have today.

Think about it Roland. To yourself.[/quote]

Good post.

169

I needed time to waste at work too, and this thread sure did just that. Everyone is so worried about others training. People get attacked, not ideas. The joy in the art of training comes to me from trying new things and measuring its results.

170

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I needed time to waste at work too, and this thread sure did just that. Everyone is so worried about others training. People get attacked, not ideas. The joy in the art of training comes to me from trying new things and measuring its results. [/quote]

My joy comes from seeing results. I could truly care less about “trying new things” if they equal LESS results.

171

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
I needed time to waste at work too, and this thread sure did just that. Everyone is so worried about others training. People get attacked, not ideas. The joy in the art of training comes to me from trying new things and measuring its results.

My joy comes from seeing results. I could truly care less about “trying new things” if they equal LESS results.[/quote]

“if it Aint broke dont fix, just cycle it” was what i was told.

People get swept up in the newest method or modality testing, sure its invigorating to try something different but too many changes too often flushes results down the toilet, hell ive seen plenty of guys do this.

172

[quote]Hanley wrote:
BULLSHIT.

I never said that fat and muscle will increase strength and leverage the same amount, I said to an extent they have similar effects.[/quote]

I understand what you meant, but what you said was:

I don’t think you need to go hog wild on a bulk, I believe in a relatively clean bulk too. I just think you worded your statement a little loosely.

173

There was a lot of crap in this thread, but quite a few jewels as well. Trib wrote some really good points, and I generally agree with the C-Law’s assertion that you can’t be afraid to ditch the abs to get bigger and stronger. But the one point that really hit home for me, and one I will take away, was this one:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think those who approach this as if they have forever to make very small amounts of progress are approaching this wrong. No one accidentally gets huge after being much smaller.[/quote]

Too often I think we get caught up in the tactical points of bodybuilding, and aren’t looking at the strategy and lifetime commitment that this all takes.

174

Ya know what’s really disturbing? When you hear a radio station call a song an “oldie” that was new when you were a kid.

Rock Around the Clock is an oldie, not The Eagle’s One of These Nights for God’s sake.

Where did all those years go? Folks I’m not even that old, but I’m here to tell ya life is frickin short. I was watching the original run of Mork n Mindy like last week it seems.

Experimentation, trial and error is unavoidable and educational to a finite degree, but once you have a grip on what your own body generally responds to, if you ever even get to that point, more is definitely less.

I KNOW from past experience that I will never ever get good results from HFT. However reading Chad’s work was instrumental in breaking my fierce addiction to absolute failure on every single working set as an example.

People who never develop the intuition to train with an informed yet independent mindset will always be susceptible to temporary wholesale adoption of the “latest sensation” and will consequently never really dial in a self discovered method that works best for them.

175

[quote]Ramo wrote:
This is the most masturbatory thread I’ve seen here in awhile. Unless you are carrying a lot of muscle yourself, who gives a shit what you think is the best way to gain muscle? If you’re regurgitating things you’ve learned from articles on this site, guess what? I’ve read them too…I know what they say.

But have you done it yourself? Anyone? Stayed very lean while gaining a ton of muscle? Show me a natural trainee who is normal height (6’0 or under) and carrying 215-220+ lbs LBM and you are showing me somebody who has ‘bulked up’ in the past and put on a good bit of fat.

I know I can’t do it myself. I’ve gained about 70 lbs of muscle naturally since I started lifting, and it was because I was willing to accept fat gain along with it. I know that it wouldn’t have happened if I tried to stay anywhere near 10%. Even CT, who I respect a great deal, didn’t do what he’s advising here.

Can somebody refute this with experience? Any natural lifters who’ve slapped on 50+ pounds of muscle in their training careers who never put on a substantial amount of fat?

If so, what’s the secret? Help me out… [/quote]

Ok, i started trainin at 140 pounds with no abs. I’ve had abs for about the past 3 years and im now 183. So im 43 pounds heavier than when i first started training AND significantly leaner.

So i’ve put on approximately 50 pounds of muscle, while staying 9-12% bodyfat the past 3 years. During my first 3 years of training i had no abs and paid no attention to what i ate. The last 3 years, with good diet i’ve made good strength and size gains withoutr getting fat. So i know it can be done

176

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
Ok, i started trainin at 140 pounds with no abs. I’ve had abs for about the past 3 years and im now 183. So im 43 pounds heavier than when i first started training AND significantly leaner.

So i’ve put on approximately 50 pounds of muscle, while staying 9-12% bodyfat the past 3 years. During my first 3 years of training i had no abs and paid no attention to what i ate. The last 3 years, with good diet i’ve made good strength and size gains withoutr getting fat. So i know it can be done

[/quote]

If you would have rather done that than gained say 65 pounds of muscle, but have to go to 15% bodyfat then fine.

177

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Rock Around the Clock is an oldie.[/quote]

Huh?

178

[quote]Avoids Roids wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

Rock Around the Clock is an oldie.

Huh?
[/quote]

Don’t you start with me ;-] For your generation Beethoven’s fifth probably isn’t an oldie.

179

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ramo wrote:
Really good point.

If you’re Roland Fisher, it is damn easy to slap on 30 lbs of muscle without adding much bodyfat, if any. Why? Because you are about as scrawny as a grown man can be. Just sacking up enough to train hard and eat a decent amount of food will get you to a more normal bodyweight. In Roland’s case, about 185. At this point, you will look like a normal person. Not a very lofty goal for a lifter.

Going from normal to pretty well built will be a harder, longer process. You’ll have to accept some more fat gain and slower results. You may have to be smarter with your training. Once you’re at this point, getting totally jacked is really fucking hard. I’m trying to get there, and it’s a whole different ballgame. If I were to train and eat the way I did to get over 200 lbs., I would regress at this point. It’s harder…and it’s a place Roland Fisher has never been, will never be, and doesn’t know the first thing about.

There’s a reason Lee Priest looks the way he does in the offseason. There’s a reason Chris Thibaudeau was able to make the transformation he did in such a short period of time. There’s a reason Dave Tate was able to do the same. If they’d listened to someone like Roland from the beginning of their training careers, aside from being so turned off to the whole endeavor that they probably would have just quit, they surely wouldn’t be sporting the kind of muscle they have today.

Think about it Roland. To yourself.

Good post. [/quote]

Wow, this is still going.

I have mentined it before, but will again because it seems to have been missed.

I cannot do a pushup and only began walking properly a couple of weeks ago. That lack of mobility and strength just may have something to do with the fact that I’m skinny fat. Just maybe. Hence the four year goal of being at a standard of strength and athleticism that isn’t high for X and his kind, but is quite good for an oldish cripple.

Hate on y’all

180

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
Ok, i started trainin at 140 pounds with no abs. I’ve had abs for about the past 3 years and im now 183. So im 43 pounds heavier than when i first started training AND significantly leaner.

So i’ve put on approximately 50 pounds of muscle, while staying 9-12% bodyfat the past 3 years. During my first 3 years of training i had no abs and paid no attention to what i ate. The last 3 years, with good diet i’ve made good strength and size gains withoutr getting fat. So i know it can be done

If you would have rather done that than gained say 65 pounds of muscle, but have to go to 15% bodyfat then fine.[/quote]

Fair comment. I just prefer to stay quite lean while putting muscle on