[quote]StandTall wrote:
Interesting thing happened today. I’m in day three of the 30 day mass plan. I am walking off a set and decide to go to the scale to see if I’m dropping weight yet…I’m anticipating it…instead I find that I’ve gained 4 pounds.
I have been weighing 234.5 or 235 for weeks and all of a sudden today I’m at 239. I almost fell off the scale and did a double take, I made sure I was on the same scale I weight myself on normally and then walked to the other one to make sure it wasn’t broken, it said 240.
I’m still not fully believing it so I’ll weight in again tomorrow. Day 3 and I’m very sore. I have never particularly enjoyed high rep work and am trying to trick my mind into loving the 20 to 25 reps.
If I see muscle gain, I’ll certainly embrace this. My joints feel better than they have in weeks. I’m very happy about this although feeling rundown and sluggish. I expect somewhat of a rebound in the next few days and then a serious crash…we’ll see.
Take care folks.[/quote]
That weight gain is exactly what happened to me! I was very surprised Poliquin mentioned weightloss, and substantial weightloss at that.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
OP - you my friend are a perfect candidate for these kinds of trainings. You have a really interesting story especially the 17" arms at 295lbs with respectable strength - what the heck?
[/quote]
Answer - I know , I thought that situation was usually reserved for calves only Magarhe, I tried to answer to your statements so please read between them, OK?
Answer - First thing in the morning, straight and flexed
Answer - Good point although I would postulate that if accompanied by large increases of strength it is both plasma (blood-flow as you call it) and additional protein deposits.
Answer - Agreed, and un-flexed, cold and first thing in the morning my gain was 4/8 of an inch, flexed 6/8. I believe that in the initial 17 days most of the gains were due to plasma but during the rest periods protein must have deposited fast because the ?look? of the arms changed dramatically, as well as a feeling of hardness plus my strength went through the roof.
Answer - Agreed again. No beginner, nor INTERMEDIATE, should even think about what I did.
Answer - Very True! And I recommend that to most people before embarking on a new program.
Answer - Excellent point.Thanks for the post. Good luck,
Thanks SO much for the response. It was really helpful.
I had a few thoughts -
How do you see the 10 days in a row only AM type of program in comparison to the AM/PM split? I mean, you can fit in a lot more work with the AM/PM split (and also keep it up longer without a big rest week?), but then as I said, mentally it’s just killer.
Which do you think is optimal given goals of gaining lean mass?
I’m a little unhappy at the moment since I feel I’ve gained a bunch of ab fat (by a bunch I mean only a little, but to me that’s alot) but I attribute that to diet - I’ve been eating a LOT of dairy and a LOT more carbs than I am used to, so I think I will just go back to my standard high protein, high veggie, and moderate fat, lower/moderate carb approach - just they whey before, then Surge and then one carb meal after maybe. I think I gain more fat on more carbs? It’s more about cals in than the carbs - I will gain well as long as I get enough cals, right?
I also was wondering what kind of weight gain you would shoot for? Do you think 1 lb a week is possible?
It seems this type of high volume/low rest time, and high frequency thing is my favorite type of program. I must admit I have been doing all the circuits 3 times (except on those killer 25 rep days…2 is enough!) and my “5 minutes” tend to be a bit longer. I sometimes do 10 min or so of cardio after (just light) Do you think this is a bad idea?
I just feel like it and it seems when I try to do programs that cut back on volume and use long rest periods I just don’t get anywhere, but maybe that’s because I’m doing them wrong? What have you found in your experience? So many people swear by the needing like over 1 min rest periods, and such, but I find I can’t really lift much more if I wait. But then again, I don’t have much muscle mass, so who am I to speak?
I think the other reason these programs are good is that it’s the only time I cut out cardio completely (or mostly) I find cardio does really eat away my legs (which do NOT Grow!)
That being said - on the topic of cardio that you responded to as well - the one thing I really do not want to give up is my hiking. I did give it up that summer when I got good results. But how do you see that type of thing (a full all day 12 mile hike or a full weekend backpacking trip) fitting into a program like this? Could it work? Sometimes it will fall in a rest period (like my trip this weekend) and sometimes it will fall on a workout day. Would replacing 1 workout with that hike be bad for gains?
Then also, when it falls in the rest time - I’m worried - it seems this program is all about letting your body rebound in those 5 days so all your hard work paid off. Is this really going to hinder my gains if I go do tons of cardio? I’m worried it will make my legs not grow.
I’m also finding that now on day 9 I’m just not really weaker. It’s a little harder to PUSH in the gym, but my energy is still great once I get going. Is this because I’m doing something wrong?
Hey Marc,
Great Post!! I have a few questions though related to the same training method…
#1) I’m 6 feet, 190 with lots of fat about 20%. I don’t know whether to bulk or cut. If I cut, I won’t have anything to show :(…but if I bulk, I’ll get even fatter. So my question is: Using this training, what were your results in body composition…How much lbm did you gain?? And how many pounds of fat have you gained/lost??
#2) How was your diet during the initial 2 weeks and on the rest days?? How many calories did you aim for daily? And how were your ratios?? For the rest days, did you eat everything in sight as Poliquin recommends?? If so, did you gain any fat??
#3) I would like to ask you if this program can be used to increase overall mass, not just a specific body part such as in your case. If so, how should I incorporate it??
Finally, I would like to thank you for taking the time to read my post and I’m eagrly waiting for your reply :D:D
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
I also was wondering what kind of weight gain you would shoot for? Do you think 1 lb a week is possible?
That being said - on the topic of cardio that you responded to as well - the one thing I really do not want to give up is my hiking. I did give it up that summer when I got good results. But how do you see that type of thing (a full all day 12 mile hike or a full weekend backpacking trip) fitting into a program like this? Could it work? Sometimes it will fall in a rest period (like my trip this weekend) and sometimes it will fall on a workout day. Would replacing 1 workout with that hike be bad for gains?
Then also, when it falls in the rest time - I’m worried - it seems this program is all about letting your body rebound in those 5 days so all your hard work paid off. Is this really going to hinder my gains if I go do tons of cardio? I’m worried it will make my legs not grow.
[/quote]
Hi Sarah,
I’m not Marc but I thought I’d jump in on a few things. I have been pretty involved in Mountaineering and training other mountaineers and backpackers. I would say that it will be harder to make progress on the lower body while backpacking regularly.
I could maintain strength but not really progress while doing consistent weekend outings. It will however be easily to be lean if you are regularly backpacking because your calorie usage will be much higher.
Since backpacking involves a lot of volume for the lower body especially if you have quit a bit of elevation gain I would put extra rest days around the backpacking in terms of leg training.
For the particular program you are on now, I think you said backpacking begins day 12 or the second day of rest. Since this program calls for 5 days of rest I would add another 2 days or so rest after you get back so that the second 10 days of training doesn’t start until day 18 or so.
With regard to mass gain for a female I would say 1 pound a week would too high, especially if you are concerned about a little stomach fat gain that you had. 2 pounds a month max and I still think that is on the high side.
[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
sarah1 wrote:
I also was wondering what kind of weight gain you would shoot for? Do you think 1 lb a week is possible?
That being said - on the topic of cardio that you responded to as well - the one thing I really do not want to give up is my hiking. I did give it up that summer when I got good results. But how do you see that type of thing (a full all day 12 mile hike or a full weekend backpacking trip) fitting into a program like this? Could it work? Sometimes it will fall in a rest period (like my trip this weekend) and sometimes it will fall on a workout day. Would replacing 1 workout with that hike be bad for gains?
Then also, when it falls in the rest time - I’m worried - it seems this program is all about letting your body rebound in those 5 days so all your hard work paid off. Is this really going to hinder my gains if I go do tons of cardio? I’m worried it will make my legs not grow.
Hi Sarah,
I’m not Marc but I thought I’d jump in on a few things. I have been pretty involved in Mountaineering and training other mountaineers and backpackers. I would say that it will be harder to make progress on the lower body while backpacking regularly.
I could maintain strength but not really progress while doing consistent weekend outings. It will however be easily to be lean if you are regularly backpacking because your calorie usage will be much higher.
Since backpacking involves a lot of volume for the lower body especially if you have quit a bit of elevation gain I would put extra rest days around the backpacking in terms of leg training.
For the particular program you are on now, I think you said backpacking begins day 12 or the second day of rest. Since this program calls for 5 days of rest I would add another 2 days or so rest after you get back so that the second 10 days of training doesn’t start until day 18 or so.
With regard to mass gain for a female I would say 1 pound a week would too high, especially if you are concerned about a little stomach fat gain that you had. 2 pounds a month max and I still think that is on the high side.
Good luck[/quote]
Cool…thanks so much for your input. I was thinking I’d turn it into just a longer workout time…workout through day 11 then backpack, then take a few days off. I worry though about the different stimulus…
I know cardio type stuff tends to lead to smaller more endurance based muscles (which is what my legs are…skinny but I can go forever). Do you think putting something like that at the end is a bad idea? I guess it doesn’t really matter… the mountains call and I’m going. Gotta enjoy life…
Thanks by the way for your input before I went on the JMT last summer too…you been on any nice trips?
Day 4 weight was still up and bowls are normal. I actually gained strength too. It was the second heavy day. My elbows do hurt but I think it was the pull ups. I’ll not be doing those anymore but will probably substitute with face pulls. Chin ups are fine but pullups hurt my elbows.
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
pat36 wrote:
StandTall wrote:
It only lasts about a week and if you take a week off you feel great.
Just something to think about.
pat36 wrote:
My only issue with this is I do not like to be deppressed. I like to work hard, but…
I might have actually hit this wall today. I felt like absolute crap in the gym, but I trained like a motherfucker until I was basically a drool monster at the end. I still feel like crap actually.
Perhaps a good idea to take some time off? Have you lost some strength?
If not cool, but if you did, you might have overreached without knowing and you should take advantage of it by resting a bit and setting yourself up for the rebound.
Good luck,
Marc
[/quote]
Moments after I posted this I was in the can. Stomach bug. That would account for the fact that I felt like crap. At least i got one last training session before the forced down time.
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Cool…thanks so much for your input. I was thinking I’d turn it into just a longer workout time…workout through day 11 then backpack, then take a few days off. I worry though about the different stimulus…
I know cardio type stuff tends to lead to smaller more endurance based muscles (which is what my legs are…skinny but I can go forever). Do you think putting something like that at the end is a bad idea? I guess it doesn’t really matter… the mountains call and I’m going. Gotta enjoy life…
Thanks by the way for your input before I went on the JMT last summer too…you been on any nice trips?[/quote]
I wouldn’t feel guilty for taking day 11 off before the backpack trip. If the fatigue is accumulating pretty heavy it could impact your backpacking. I know sometimes I train legs heavy the night before an outing and the next day is tougher than it should be carrying a pack for elevation gain.
Since you really like backpacking you might make a mental shift and think in terms of seasons and focus. During spring and summer the focus is on backpacking, during fall and winter more on body composition.
I have a climb up Mt Rainier in a week that should be a lot of fun. Have a great trip.
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
How do you see the 10 days in a row only AM type of program in comparison to the AM/PM split? I mean, you can fit in a lot more work with the AM/PM split (and also keep it up longer without a big rest week?), but then as I said, mentally it’s just killer.
[/quote]
Answer:
Please also consider the fact that you have more options. You could do 10 days in a row of one AM session or 3-5 days a week of AM/PM sessions of course but how about:
Mon: AM/PM
Tue: AM
Wed: off
Thu: Repeat Mon etc.
That might give you the best of both worlds and be less draining mentally.
to answer your question; I think both set ups can be beneficial at times but the 10 day in a row program seems to be useful more so for the long term. 2 sessions a day for 3-5 days a week is probably better reserved for getting over a plateau.
You mentioned being able to get in more work and that is true but is that really what leads to the success of HF or is it the actual higher frequency?
I personally believe it is the latter. I’d rather do 5 sets every day then 10 sets 2-4 times per week.
Now, 2 sessions a day combined with a higher carb intake can be very beneficial for adding size very quickly but we are talking size not functional muscle tissue so while regaining weight due to illness this might be a good option combined with high protein, medium carb, creatine, electrolyte and water intake. So if you are still looking to regain some weight because you were ill I would suggest a week or two of two sessions a day, three times per week, full body, while taking in a high amount of creatine, protein, water, elctrolytes etc.
After that take a few days off and do either the 30 day mass program or something else HF related.
Answer:
Gaining lean mass usually is combined with a diet not too high in calories, right? So if that’s the case I would train only once per day.
Now, when training twice per day you can eat more due to G-Flux of course but you really have to pay attention to your diet and signs of overtraining. That’s why I think it is best used as a plateau buster. However, if you know how to do it and monitor yourself real well this can be the cest option, but in my experience it is very hard to train yourself so I believe it is better to be safe then sorry and use this technique only once ever so often (1-3 months out of the year).
Answer: yes. Do what made you have success before. If your experience leads you to believe that a high intake of dairy and carbs leads to too much fat gain then change it up. Now, do you think it is the dairy, the carbs or the combo of dairy and carbs that’s adding the fat? You might not have to give up either, if you enjoy them, but you might have to partition your nutrition a bit better.
Dairy later in in the day (except for cottage cheese) has lead some to gain more fat then when taken in the AM. Just a thought. Also, you might have built up an allergy to dairy and perhaps should experiement with not taking any for a while and then reintroducing it to your diet.
Answer:
Yes, but you want it lean so do not be surprised if you gain nothing for two weeks and then gain 2-3 pounds in the nxt two weeks. The body is odd that way. Performance first is what the Master says so keep that in mind Improve on all lifts, diet well and the gains will come but it will not be a linear increase. It will be 1 lbs, nothing, 2lbs, nothing, nothing, 2lbs, you know?
Don’t freak if you do not consitantly add a pound per week. Keep plugging away, impoving performance and adding cals if need be.
Answer:
NO
As long as you keep ‘improving’!
Answer:
You know your body best!!! If you are improving your body composition and performance you are doing exactly the right thing!
Answer:
Well…that’s relative. I hate waiting that long between sets as well and don’t ‘feel’ I need it but sometimes my performance does improve when I force myself to wait longer. Sometimes. Not always.
Muscle mass is largely due to food intake combined with training so keep that in mind as well and of course since you really do not like adding fat the process is a little slower.
Answer:
No cardio…for now!
Maybe 5-10 minutes of sprinting 2 times we week might be good for you…
Answer:
I think my buddy Seattle_lifter gave you a good answer to that one.
Personally I would not replace the workout but just take a day off before the hike, eat above maintenance on the day of the hike and then maybe another day off after the hike. Especially if the goal is to gain weight. No need to give up the things you love doing just minimize them and plan for them (food etc), although a full weekend of hiking might be too much…
Answer:
I hate to say it but you can only be really good at one thing at a time
When on this plan I think it best you minimize your cardio efforts. How about a 6 mile hike, or a one day trip instead of 12 miles and a full weekend?
You need to listen to your instincts. If you are worried your legs won’t grow you are probably right…
Answer:
you know, I pushed myself like crazy and I did not get weaker till day 12 I think so…
Just follow the program once exactly as given, take the rest, record the gains, if any and then tweak if needed, accordingly.
[quote]tito wrote:
Hey Marc,
Great Post!! I have a few questions though related to the same training method…
#1) I’m 6 feet, 190 with lots of fat about 20%. I don’t know whether to bulk or cut. If I cut, I won’t have anything to show :(…but if I bulk, I’ll get even fatter. So my question is: Using this training, what were your results in body composition…How much lbm did you gain?? And how many pounds of fat have you gained/lost??
[/quote]
Answer: The first time I tried Waterbury’s HF training (6-8 full body sessions a week) I gained 7-9lbs of muscle and lost 5-6lbs of fat in less then 10 weeks.
Since you are at 20% I would recommend a maintenance diet 33/33/33, like Chad suggests and 3-6 full body sessions a week. Full body sessions, especially those with heavy weights and compound exercises, have been shown to increase your resting metabolic rate more then any other form of training.
Have you done full body sessions before?
If not, that’s the first step! You need to condition yourself first. Perhaps a better option (offered only because I do not know more about you) is the 10x3 for fatloss program from Chad. After that perhaps his Quatro Dynamo program which will add muscle AND melt of fat.
I am not saying you cannot do the 30 day mass program now but since you mentioned you have LOTS of bodyfat it makes me question your conditioning so perhaps, if losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time is the goal (with more emphasis on fatloss, of course) the better option might be:
10x3 for fatloss: 3-4 weeks
Quatro Dynamo: 3 weeks, week off
30 day mass plan, week off.
Give that some thought.
Answer: I pretty much ate everything in sight BUT, what’s in my sight (kitchen) is reasonably clean so although I eat a burger or two now and then the rest is quite clean. I shoot for lots of protein and fat first and add carbs in the morning and after training. Lost of shakes with protein, oil and veggies and fruit, for example:
2 cups water
1 cup milk
3 scoops protein powder
broccoli
spinach
walnuts and olive oil
frozen blueberries
apple
A supershake so to speak.
I did gain some fat but not much. G-flux is really in full effect when you appoach overtraining.
Answer;
In that case you need to follow either the 30 day mass plan or create your own HF plan based on Chad’s articles.
I would suggest:
Mon AM/PM
Tue PM
Wed off
Thu Repeat MOn
Fri repeat Tue
Sat plus Sun off
AM sessions: 8x3 or 4x6
PM sessions: 3x9 or 2x12
Compound exercises only, no more then 6-8 exercises per session.
[quote]StandTall wrote:
Day 4 weight was still up and bowls are normal. I actually gained strength too. It was the second heavy day. My elbows do hurt but I think it was the pull ups. I’ll not be doing those anymore but will probably substitute with face pulls. Chin ups are fine but pullups hurt my elbows.[/quote]
See, that happened to me too. Everything Poliquin described happened to me, EXCEPT for the weightloss. But then again, that might just be because i focussed only on the arms/forearms.
Good idea to change it up. Being sore in the joints is probably OK, but real pain is an indication that something might go wrong if you continue.
Good luck plugging on. Once you start balling your eyes out when watching a chick flick you know you’re done
Wow, I’ve really got to thank your for all the time you put into your thoughful answers! It really helps!
It makes me feel better that you think the just AM straight for 10 days is a good idea too. The PMs really drain me and I was thinking I really should be doing them. Maybe I will for a few weeks this summer though. Summer is just perfect for it. Long days.
I just finished day 10 and I wasn’t really weaker. In fact I busted out 1 extra rep on the lunges. My legs are sore. My body is sore, but I can push through. I don’t feel bigger necessarily though. I’m confused about weight and such. Maybe I ate too much, maybe too little. My weight went 110ish to 113ish now back to 110.5 this morning (but with lower carbs yesterday.) I’ve been hungry all the time at night. I try not to eat too much at night though. I would like input on the upcoming days off - should I eat MORE? How does this work?
One thing I notice is that I see veins EVERYWHERE. Like places I never noticed. Except I still feel I put more fat on that spot on my abs where it always goes. Maybe I’m crazy. HF works for sure to lean you out. I’m just hoping it works for lean gains.
Also, I guess I’m really worried since I do so much want to do this backpacking trip this weekend, but as I say it falls on day 12 and 13. Smack in the middle of rest. Will it really screw up my progress esp on my legs? I worked really really hard and I don’t want to mess it up. What do you think?
Another thing I would like input on is that technically I could be having a cortisone injection in my hamstring on Wed, the 19th. I would then have to take ~2 weeks off from lower body. I have a very long standing issue with this tendon - I injured it over 6 months ago and it has not healed. Part of the problem may be that I was sick for 2 months of it and am only 110 lbs - not a healthy weight for me.
Now prior to 2 weeks ago I was trying to take it really easy, just do PT, etc. But then they took an MRI, said it was inflamed but saw no tears and refered me for the MRI. My thought was maybe if I just worked through pain like in that article about “eccentric solution to tendonitis” that it would heal itself as I gained strength and weight. Hence I pushed through on all these 1 legged deads (which hurt it)
It seems to have improved over the first 6 or 7 days. The last few days it has hurt more. However, it seems the specific area isn’t bothing me as much, but that might be becuase it is masked by all the surrounding muscles being so sore that I can’t feel it.
What do you think about this? Do you think I should keep trying to just strenghten and push through for a while and things will heal (I’m hoping this super-compensation rest thing will help it??) and try the cortisone later if it still doesn’t heal, or would you go for it now?
[quote]abominabelsnoman wrote:
I’m on day 7. Can’t hardly get out of bed… interestingly, I have actually gained weight and I’m pretty sure I lost some body fat.[/quote]
Moments after I posted this I was in the can. Stomach bug. That would account for the fact that I felt like crap. At least i got one last training session before the forced down time.
[/quote]
Ah, sorry to hear that. Hopefully you will get the rebound effect anyway.
[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Wow, I’ve really got to thank your for all the time you put into your thoughful answers! It really helps!
[/quote]
Answer: you are welcome!
Answer: indeed. If the PM sessions really drain you then you should not. If you are improving nicely on ‘regular’ programs just leave them for times you need to get out of a rut
Answer: YES, eat more and do not be afraid of eating at night. Keep those meals protein, fat and veggies if carbs keep you up and make you feel like you are gaining fat (although a bit of carbs with protein and fat before sleep is not bad and can make you fall asleep better and give you deeper rest and thus better recuperation).
Eat clean but eat more. Enjoy the next 5 days off and eat, if possible, 33/33/33 on most of the meals, except perhaps for the last meals of the day. Don’t be afraid of carbs and make sure you get your fruits and veggies in in the AM and early PM. Get the fishoil Chad suggets (as well as Poliquin) and enjoy some of your favorite meals!
Answer: yep, you’re crazy Just kidding. Everybody pretty much has got that crappy spot where fat stays longest, whether abs, butt, legs, back etc. Don’t worry about it too much. I am not so familiar with topical fatloss solutions but you might try them once and see if that helps with that final bit. And sometimes it might be due to an allergy. Eat no dairy and nuts at all for a week and see if that helps…
You will gain muscle in the next 5 days, do not worry, and even more in the next cycle!
Answer: if you would allow me to act like an older brother for a moment
Go on the trip and enjoy the heck out of it! You cannot let a bodybuilding program prevent you from getting some wonderful memories. Chad’s programs are so gosh darn good that you will gain and improve. Just make sure you prepare for the extra energy you will expend.
Take bars and energy drinks. Even better if you can take some BCAA’s with you and just pop those every three hours on the trip. take the fish oil too and just make sure you eat every three hours. Don’t hike for hours on end without nourishing your body as many hikers do (they only drink and don’t eat anything for hours on end). Stop and drink AND snack AND pop some BCAA’s.
Don’t give up the other things youlove for perhaps one-third pound muscle. You got anothr cycle coming up and trust me, you’ll do fine,especially if you take the mental break this trip will provide.
Now stop worrying, OK?
Answer:
Man, that’s a touch one. My knowledge is limited in regards to injuries like this and I would talk to the person who is treating you about this. Does he/she know what you are doing? Perhaps they agree with your assessment after you explain the program and the exercises you use.
The problem with injuries is that you do not want to make them worse.
If two weeks off is all they are suggesting then that’s not so bad! It usually takes closer to 6 weeks before you really lose muscle and significant strength! So two weeks off, some rehab for a week or two and then back to normal seems like a good idea and should not cause you to lose much.
I suggest you ask them what you CAN do during that period. Can you do leg extensions? Side kicks? etc etc. OR nothing at all?
Talk to them and if you have the time, copy and paste the problem and put it in a Cressey thread or ask Robertson or any of the other professionals on this site. I’d be curious to their answer.
I personally am leaning towards you getting the problem taken care off. Two weeks off isn’t so bad and the supecompensations should have things in your favor.
Answer: you are welcome, good luck and enjoy your trip!
[quote]Chad Waterbury wrote:
Great post, Marq! I’m sure many will benefit from your HFT training experiences.
Good to have you here. [/quote]
Thanks Chad, your adaption of the principles involved truly, I feel, surpass what everyone else is doing. At 39, I am better, faster, stronger, more powerful and have twice the work capacity as I did 10 years ago.
Now, if TC could just publish you new system on father’s day…(that would beat soap on a rope and a tie haha)
