Training Till Depressed: Results

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]Misterhamper wrote:
IamMarqaos wrote:

Thanks for the response.

But isn’t it bad for the shoulder-joints to ‘bench’ with flared-out elbows, and flyes too? Isn’t it bad too, even with uniteral work? Guess I’ll have to try it out, but would love your response to it too.
[/quote]

That’s actually why I really like floor presses. it limits the range of motion and prevents the rotation of the shoulder joint. My arms are real long and when I bench and let the barbell touch my chest my shoulders take a big hit.

With floor presses I can still use a lot of weight and put a lot of stress on the chest muscles without messing up my shoulder. Key thing is to let only the triceps touch the floor and not the elbow.

Try it out and see how you feel.

My chest work has, due to shoulder problems, been limited to floor presses, blast strap push ups and dips, Waterbury slides (see his big chest in 6 weeks article!) and Cable bench presses (see that article as well).

I only do close grip benches for the triceps, the closer grip seems to not bother my shoulder at all.

To hit the top of the chest I do cable crossovers from the bottom up with my palms up.

Hope that helps

marc

[caneman]

[quote]Dexter Morgan wrote:
ill wrote:
What did you expect would happen when you didn’t do direct arm work?

Seriously all it proves is your arm training was ineffective.

Contrary to popular belief squats and milk don’t increase fucking biceps size, especially if you aren’t training biceps…

Thank you!

I don’t know where the idea that leg workouts made your biceps bigger came from. Apparently people took the whole “squats produce a lot of GH and T” out of context. To the point where a leg movement would bulk up your arms, makes no fucking sense in my mind.[/quote]

Ha you guys should probably reread the post twice before posting…reduces the chance of making a snap judgement…

Great job once again Marc. Me and a friend are a week into something like what you wrote and we have stretch marks all over our biceps/triceps! And this is only 7 workouts so far!

I’m glad you posted the results for everyone else to see.

[Brutus_G]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
My only issue with this is I do not like to be deppressed. I like to work hard, but…[/quote]

Amen man and when im overtrained my libido goes down so…

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]caneman wrote:
Dexter Morgan wrote:
ill wrote:
What did you expect would happen when you didn’t do direct arm work?

Seriously all it proves is your arm training was ineffective.

Contrary to popular belief squats and milk don’t increase fucking biceps size, especially if you aren’t training biceps…

Thank you!

I don’t know where the idea that leg workouts made your biceps bigger came from. Apparently people took the whole “squats produce a lot of GH and T” out of context. To the point where a leg movement would bulk up your arms, makes no fucking sense in my mind.

Ha you guys should probably reread the post twice before posting…reduces the chance of making a snap judgement…

Great job once again Marc. Me and a friend are a week into something like what you wrote and we have stretch marks all over our biceps/triceps! And this is only 7 workouts so far!

I’m glad you posted the results for everyone else to see.[/quote]

Ha, awesome! I had the same happen to me the first week too. Make sure you keep eating enough because by the time you hit the overreach point appetite goes down. Are you changing exercises and parameters or sticking to the same like Poliquin suggests?

Good luck,

Marc

[pat]

[quote]StandTall wrote:
It only lasts about a week and if you take a week off you feel great.

Just something to think about.

pat36 wrote:
My only issue with this is I do not like to be deppressed. I like to work hard, but…

[/quote]

I might have actually hit this wall today. I felt like absolute crap in the gym, but I trained like a motherfucker until I was basically a drool monster at the end. I still feel like crap actually.

[Seattle_Lifter]

Marc,

Well done. Those are some huge arms. That is an amazing change. You must be getting a lot of comments. Makes me want to train my arms. There are very few people that have over 18" arms at any sort of reasonable body fat.

I guess you’re sold on high frequency training. What’s your next goal? More arm specialization or something else?

Have you found variations within HFT that make it either focus more of growth or strength?

Congratulations

Doug

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Marc,

Well done. Those are some huge arms. That is an amazing change. You must be getting a lot of comments. Makes me want to train my arms. There are very few people that have over 18" arms at any sort of reasonable body fat.

I guess you’re sold on high frequency training. What’s your next goal? More arm specialization or something else?

Have you found variations within HFT that make it either focus more of growth or strength?

Congratulations

Doug[/quote]

Hey my friend,

How are you?

Yep, I indeed have had a lot of comments. It really makes me look more symmetrical and more complete. Due to the size of my back I always look real big from behind but from the front I looked half that size due to my ‘small’ arms.

I am indeed sold on HF training but that does not mean that I do not like the split high volume system. As a matter of fact, after having done full body sessions for months on end, day in day out, I am going to do a month of high volume split training, starting tomorrow in fact.

In a month I am leaving for my native Holland for two weeks and will probably pig out on the fantastic food so after that it is a fat-loss program for 8 weeks

In regards to the variations for strength or hypertrophy. For total hypertrophy I noticed that 6-9 sessions give me amazing results. However when it comes to strength I need to stick with 3-4 (Waterbury actually recommeds that too, I think).

I gained some real strength when I did and explosive movement on Monday, a Heavy movement on Wednesday and another explosive movement on Friday followed by a flushing set on Saturday.

For example:
Mon: Snatch, sets of 2
Wed: Deadlift, sets of 3
Frid: Power Clean, sets of 2
Sat: Dumbell swing, 2 sets of 25

Other combo’s that worked for me were:
Jump Squat
Back Squat
Box Squat
High rep front squats

Power push ups
Bench press
Blast strap push ups
cable presses

etc, etc.

For hypertrophy I really like working out with a full body session every day, like he mentions in his 30 day mass plan, though my volume is much higher.

What are your plans for the next months?

Marc

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
StandTall wrote:
It only lasts about a week and if you take a week off you feel great.

Just something to think about.

pat36 wrote:
My only issue with this is I do not like to be deppressed. I like to work hard, but…

I might have actually hit this wall today. I felt like absolute crap in the gym, but I trained like a motherfucker until I was basically a drool monster at the end. I still feel like crap actually.
[/quote]

Perhaps a good idea to take some time off? Have you lost some strength?
If not cool, but if you did, you might have overreached without knowing and you should take advantage of it by resting a bit and setting yourself up for the rebound.

Good luck,

Marc

[sarah1]

Thanks for your experience. I must say, although I am much newer to training than you, the only time I felt I really got results was when I did an HF program, blasting my legs 6-8 times a week in AM and PM sessions. I also was doing them in a fashion with as little rest as possible - workouts usually about 45 min tops but I was dripping by the end!

I did that and in 6 weeks added 1 inch to my legs (which NEVER grow) and took an inch off my waist. However, I was eating slightly below maintence.

I have a few questions about this method of training that maybe you can answer as a more experienced lifter.

First of all, I assume it’s great for adding lean mass too…while eating in an excess? I am now really skinny again (I lost 20 lbs due to illness - I’m at 110 for 5’7’’ - awful!) I’m doing Chad’s new program and really loving it, but I’m trying to eat for adding mass.

My concern, which is maybe really stupid, and it most certainly won’t stop me from doing the plan now (I’m LOVING it - I’m on day 8…good to be sore!), but should this type of training sort of be “reserved” for special times when you really need to blast something? Can you keep it up all year round? I know that I was pretty dead after 8 weeks that summer.

I also cannot keep up AM + PM sessions all year round. Mentally it is too draining. I love going to the gym in the morning (hence Chad’s new program is great - only am sessions), but PM is really rough for me. I have to FORCE myself through the workout. It’s very hard.

So I do want to be able to lean out again eventually, becuase I assume I will have to put on some fat as I try to get back my muscle. Does this technique ever render itself less useful after you use it for some time?

How long would you recommend doing such a program and what would you follow it up with? I plan on doing the 30 days…what program would you recommend after that?

Finally, this isn’t really related to the HF stuff, but you sound pretty experienced so I thought I’d put it here. It’s relating to diet. The other aspect of my HF program that summer that got such amazing results for me was that I switched to working out in the AM with only 30 g. of whey prior. No carbs. It took a while, but I got to the point where my workouts were INTENSE without carbs. I don’t know if this tactic should also be “saved” so as to shock my body when I do want to lean out, or if I should use it all the time (which I have been doing for the last year) in order to try to keep my gains lean?

Recently I tried adding a few berries in before as well. Do you think this makes a difference? What’s your opinion on diet breakdowns and timing?

And finally, how did you do your diet on the 5 off days - should I eat less?

Thanks so much!

[sarah1]

Oh darn, I forgot one last thing:

Opinion on cardio during HF??

[StandTall]

Sarah1

You should see the AD diet for your answer to the last question. Go to supplements and nutrition and look at the “my experience on the Anabolic Diet” read all of Disc Hoss writtings and you will learn a ton!

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Thanks for your experience. I must say, although I am much newer to training than you, the only time I felt I really got results was when I did an HF program, blasting my legs 6-8 times a week in AM and PM sessions. I also was doing them in a fashion with as little rest as possible - workouts usually about 45 min tops but I was dripping by the end!

I did that and in 6 weeks added 1 inch to my legs (which NEVER grow) and took an inch off my waist. However, I was eating slightly below maintence.

I have a few questions about this method of training that maybe you can answer as a more experienced lifter.

First of all, I assume it’s great for adding lean mass too…while eating in an excess? I am now really skinny again (I lost 20 lbs due to illness - I’m at 110 for 5’7’’ - awful!) I’m doing Chad’s new program and really loving it, but I’m trying to eat for adding mass.

My concern, which is maybe really stupid, and it most certainly won’t stop me from doing the plan now (I’m LOVING it - I’m on day 8…good to be sore!), but should this type of training sort of be “reserved” for special times when you really need to blast something? Can you keep it up all year round? I know that I was pretty dead after 8 weeks that summer.

I also cannot keep up AM + PM sessions all year round. Mentally it is too draining. I love going to the gym in the morning (hence Chad’s new program is great - only am sessions), but PM is really rough for me. I have to FORCE myself through the workout. It’s very hard.

So I do want to be able to lean out again eventually, becuase I assume I will have to put on some fat as I try to get back my muscle. Does this technique ever render itself less useful after you use it for some time?

How long would you recommend doing such a program and what would you follow it up with? I plan on doing the 30 days…what program would you recommend after that?

Finally, this isn’t really related to the HF stuff, but you sound pretty experienced so I thought I’d put it here. It’s relating to diet. The other aspect of my HF program that summer that got such amazing results for me was that I switched to working out in the AM with only 30 g. of whey prior. No carbs. It took a while, but I got to the point where my workouts were INTENSE without carbs. I don’t know if this tactic should also be “saved” so as to shock my body when I do want to lean out, or if I should use it all the time (which I have been doing for the last year) in order to try to keep my gains lean?

Recently I tried adding a few berries in before as well. Do you think this makes a difference? What’s your opinion on diet breakdowns and timing?

And finally, how did you do your diet on the 5 off days - should I eat less?

Thanks so much!
[/quote]

[obo1]

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
The only thing that realy took me to the next level is a very high frequency of training. The last 30 years bodybuilding has been about massive volume, once per week, for size and that doesn’t do anything for my arms.

Super high frequency was not something I had considered till Waterbury and now Poliquin mentions it as well and voila, I am closing in on 19 inch arms.[/quote]

Pretty much every high level bodybuilder prior to 1980 trained high frequency, high volume. It wasn’t until guys started juicing like crazy that growing off of sub-par routines became the norm. It sucks that it’s taken so long for bodybuilding routines to come around again.

[Seattle_Lifter]

Thanks for the details. I’ve got a climb of Mt Rainier coming up in about about 10 days. I’m planning on doing a Sheiko 4 week cycle some time later and then would like to do HFT for muscle size.

I’ll let you know how it goes.

Doug

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Marc,

Well done. Those are some huge arms. That is an amazing change. You must be getting a lot of comments. Makes me want to train my arms. There are very few people that have over 18" arms at any sort of reasonable body fat.

I guess you’re sold on high frequency training. What’s your next goal? More arm specialization or something else?

Have you found variations within HFT that make it either focus more of growth or strength?

Congratulations

Doug

Hey my friend,

How are you?

Yep, I indeed have had a lot of comments. It really makes me look more symmetrical and more complete. Due to the size of my back I always look real big from behind but from the front I looked half that size due to my ‘small’ arms.

I am indeed sold on HF training but that does not mean that I do not like the split high volume system. As a matter of fact, after having done full body sessions for months on end, day in day out, I am going to do a month of high volume split training, starting tomorrow in fact.

In a month I am leaving for my native Holland for two weeks and will probably pig out on the fantastic food so after that it is a fat-loss program for 8 weeks

In regards to the variations for strength or hypertrophy. For total hypertrophy I noticed that 6-9 sessions give me amazing results. However when it comes to strength I need to stick with 3-4 (Waterbury actually recommeds that too, I think).

I gained some real strength when I did and explosive movement on Monday, a Heavy movement on Wednesday and another explosive movement on Friday followed by a flushing set on Saturday.

For example:
Mon: Snatch, sets of 2
Wed: Deadlift, sets of 3
Frid: Power Clean, sets of 2
Sat: Dumbell swing, 2 sets of 25

Other combo’s that worked for me were:
Jump Squat
Back Squat
Box Squat
High rep front squats

Power push ups
Bench press
Blast strap push ups
cable presses

etc, etc.

For hypertrophy I really like working out with a full body session every day, like he mentions in his 30 day mass plan, though my volume is much higher.

What are your plans for the next months?

Marc
[/quote]

[StandTall]

Interesting thing happened today. I’m in day three of the 30 day mass plan. I am walking off a set and decide to go to the scale to see if I’m dropping weight yet…I’m anticipating it…instead I find that I’ve gained 4 pounds.

I have been weighing 234.5 or 235 for weeks and all of a sudden today I’m at 239. I almost fell off the scale and did a double take, I made sure I was on the same scale I weight myself on normally and then walked to the other one to make sure it wasn’t broken, it said 240.

I’m still not fully believing it so I’ll weight in again tomorrow. Day 3 and I’m very sore. I have never particularly enjoyed high rep work and am trying to trick my mind into loving the 20 to 25 reps.

If I see muscle gain, I’ll certainly embrace this. My joints feel better than they have in weeks. I’m very happy about this although feeling rundown and sluggish. I expect somewhat of a rebound in the next few days and then a serious crash…we’ll see.

Take care folks.

[StandTall]

That Seiko cycle is a high frequency training method…

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Thanks for the details. I’ve got a climb of Mt Rainier coming up in about about 10 days. I’m planning on doing a Sheiko 4 week cycle some time later and then would like to do HFT for muscle size.

I’ll let you know how it goes.

Doug

IamMarqaos wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Marc,

Well done. Those are some huge arms. That is an amazing change. You must be getting a lot of comments. Makes me want to train my arms. There are very few people that have over 18" arms at any sort of reasonable body fat.

I guess you’re sold on high frequency training. What’s your next goal? More arm specialization or something else?

Have you found variations within HFT that make it either focus more of growth or strength?

Congratulations

Doug

Hey my friend,

How are you?

Yep, I indeed have had a lot of comments. It really makes me look more symmetrical and more complete. Due to the size of my back I always look real big from behind but from the front I looked half that size due to my ‘small’ arms.

I am indeed sold on HF training but that does not mean that I do not like the split high volume system. As a matter of fact, after having done full body sessions for months on end, day in day out, I am going to do a month of high volume split training, starting tomorrow in fact.

In a month I am leaving for my native Holland for two weeks and will probably pig out on the fantastic food so after that it is a fat-loss program for 8 weeks

In regards to the variations for strength or hypertrophy. For total hypertrophy I noticed that 6-9 sessions give me amazing results. However when it comes to strength I need to stick with 3-4 (Waterbury actually recommeds that too, I think).

I gained some real strength when I did and explosive movement on Monday, a Heavy movement on Wednesday and another explosive movement on Friday followed by a flushing set on Saturday.

For example:
Mon: Snatch, sets of 2
Wed: Deadlift, sets of 3
Frid: Power Clean, sets of 2
Sat: Dumbell swing, 2 sets of 25

Other combo’s that worked for me were:
Jump Squat
Back Squat
Box Squat
High rep front squats

Power push ups
Bench press
Blast strap push ups
cable presses

etc, etc.

For hypertrophy I really like working out with a full body session every day, like he mentions in his 30 day mass plan, though my volume is much higher.

What are your plans for the next months?

Marc

[/quote]

[Magarhe]

People - please do NOT quote the entire original post in your replies unless you are addressing specific points.

OP - you my friend are a perfect candidate for these kinds of trainings. You have a really interesting story especially the 17" arms at 295lbs with respectable strength - what the heck?

Are you measuring your arms flexed, or are you measuring them 1st thing in the morning, arm straight?

I hope people realise that if you focus on a single (especially small) muscle for a few weeks you can get an inch of growth that is nothing more than increased bloowflow to the area.

You need to measure progress cold, in the morning, unflexed, straight, and over a period of time to gauge how much protein you’ve laid down in the fibres as opposed to how much blood is flowing through to repair damage. Of course nobody wants to hear that.

I don’t like the idea of beginners and novices jumping in on excessive overtraining with the hopes of gaining at some crazy rate - these approaches are for people STUCK - people who have a lot of training behind them. NOT for beginners. Beginners will get faster, better results with less effort doing something else.

Heck most people will grow more by skipping the entire workout phase and going straight to the 1 week recover / time off with lots of food.

If driving a nail in use a hammer, not a sledgehammer. Sure the sledgehammer might do the job, but it more likely will bend the nail and destroy the wood. These programs are for people who’ve been bashing away with a normal hammer and the stupid nail won’t go in - time for the sledgehammer. Or better yet, an electric drill, and soap.

Also a lot of beginners do not have the recovery abilities to make advantage of this. They will overtrain severely for 2 weeks, then, get sick, then, lose a month of training, and end up worse than in the beginning.

[IamMarqaos]

To Sarah1

Sarah, I’ll try to answer to the best of my abilities, OK? Please read in between what you wrote:

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
I did that and in 6 weeks added 1 inch to my legs (which NEVER grow) and took an inch off my waist. However, I was eating slightly below maintenance.
[/quote]

• The first time I tried the HF plan I gained in excess of 6lbs of muscle and lost close to 5lbs of fat. I believe AM and PM sessions, especially when they are full body sessions or sessions that emphasize legs and/or back, are the only way to gain muscle and fat at the same time.

Don Alessi has mentioned something like this before (author of Meltdown on this site and several other really good articles). He also has an article called Double Session Burst Training in which he claims to routinely add 10lbs of muscle in 6 weeks while losing fat with Am and Pm sessions (8-10 per week). By the way, he too validates the overreach and rebound training in his article 20lbs of untapped mass.

Lou Shuler mentions in New Rules of Lifting that the only program in the scientific literature ever to cause muscle gain and fat-loss was a program emphasizing legs and back with heavy Olympic (including squats, deads etc)
I have a few questions about this method of training that maybe you can answer as a more experienced lifter.

sarah1 wrote:
First of all, I assume it’s great for adding lean mass too…while eating in an excess? I am now really skinny again (I lost 20 lbs due to illness - I’m at 110 for 5’7’’ - awful!) I’m doing Chad’s new program and really loving it, but I’m trying to eat for adding mass.

• Yes, it is great for adding lean mass with a minimal, if any (depending on how much in excess you are eating of course), of fat. Please make sure that your peri-workout nutrition is excellent when trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Take protein before, bcaa during and protein and carbs after and you should be fine.
  I am sorry you lost that much weight. If it is due to food poisoning or stomach flu try to cycle your carbs, one day a bit too much, next day what you are used to and then one day a little below what you are used to doing. Drink of course lots of water on each day and keep your protein as high as possible. You will rebound quickly like this. (I recently lost 23 lbs due to food poisoning and rebounded real nice in two weeks by doing what I just mentioned).

sarah1 wrote:
My concern, which is maybe really stupid, and it most certainly won’t stop me from doing the plan now (I’m LOVING it - I’m on day 8…good to be sore!), but should this type of training sort of be “reserved” for special times when you really need to blast something? Can you keep it up all year round? I know that I was pretty dead after 8 weeks that summer.

• Certainly not a stupid concern! But only you can answer this question really. Keep doing the program for as long as it is working! I see no reason why you cannot do it year round as long as you overreach and not overtrain till depressed like Poliquin suggests. Chad’s programs are, in my opinion, perfect for the long term. However, after a certain time I imagine you need to make certain changes. Maybe do the cycle 3 times, or add a heavy session or use other exercises. Etc etc.

Or perhaps simply to combat boredom you do a month of split training, whatever. But as long as it works and you are happy with the results and the program, keep doing it. If however, you feel drained (overtrained) like you did that summer, then it is time to change for sure. By that time Chad?s new system might be out

sarah1 wrote:
I also cannot keep up AM + PM sessions all year round. Mentally it is too draining. I love going to the gym in the morning (hence Chad’s new program is great - only am sessions), but PM is really rough for me. I have to FORCE myself through the workout. It’s very hard.

• I think it is the AM and PM sessions are what you need to ‘reserve’ for special times, because indeed it can drain you mentally!

sarah1 wrote:
So I do want to be able to lean out again eventually, because I assume I will have to put on some fat as I try to get back my muscle. Does this technique ever render itself less useful after you use it for some time?

• Again only you can tell. Some programs lose there usefulness after one time for me, others I can do for 12 weeks before I need to change. However do not always assume you have to put on fat when getting back muscle, OK? Don’t put that in your mind Be positive and expect the best gains possible (lots of muscle, as little, or no fat, as possible). You added muscle while losing fat before, remember? Thus you can do it again!

[quote]
sarah1 wrote:
How long would you recommend doing such a program and what would you follow it up with? I plan on doing the 30 days…what program would you recommend after that?[/quote]

• As I mentioned, stay with it longer then 30 days, if you want to and if it continues to work for you (of course).

Personally after this program (for however long you decide to follow it), I would assess my weaknesses and address those. If you grew nicely all over then I would continue either with the same program or I would go to splits (for fun) or I would embark on another HF training program. You have the templates now after doing some of Chad?s programs so you can be your own trainer.

sarah1 wrote:
Finally, this isn’t really related to the HF stuff, but you sound pretty experienced so I thought I’d put it here. It’s relating to diet. The other aspect of my HF program that summer that got such amazing results for me was that I switched to working out in the AM with only 30 g. of whey prior. No carbs. It took a while, but I got to the point where my workouts were INTENSE without carbs. I don’t know if this tactic should also be “saved” so as to shock my body when I do want to lean out, or if I should use it all the time (which I have been doing for the last year) in order to try to keep my gains lean?
Recently I tried adding a few berries in before as well. Do you think this makes a difference? What’s your opinion on diet breakdowns and timing?

• Ah, I think I answered this a bit above but that is exactly what Chad recommends when trying to gain muscle and lose fat. Just protein before the sessions. A few berries will not add many carbs and should do you no harm. Great tactic! And one you can use all the time considering your goal. If possible add some BCAA during the workout and take protein with creatine after.

Personally I like the following:

Protein with a little carbs before the session.
Bcaa (with Gatorade if I really want to add size) during the session
Protein with some frozen fruit after the session.

In the morning I eat according to 33/33/33 (breakfast and midmorning snack)

In the afternoon and evening I eat Protein and fat only.

Before bed I take full fat Cottage cheese with some oil and cinnamon.

sarah1 wrote
And finally, how did you do your diet on the 5 off days - should I eat less?

• No, not less! Increase protein and healthy fats as well as veggies. Big breakfast (reward yourself) and then towards the evening Protein, fat and veggies only. Never go hungry though! You need to add the muscle here, that?s the main focus. Fat deposits will be minimal if any.

Hope that helped!

Marc

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Oh darn, I forgot one last thing:

Opinion on cardio during HF??
[/quote]

Minimal to NO!

I use very short rest periods and I alternate upper and lower body compound exercises. If I add cardio I’ll probably die

However, I do like to take walks with my kids (you know hikes and stuff) and do that once or twice per week for a little less then an hour.

marc

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Thanks for the details. I’ve got a climb of Mt Rainier coming up in about about 10 days. I’m planning on doing a Sheiko 4 week cycle some time later and then would like to do HFT for muscle size.

I’ll let you know how it goes.

Doug

[/quote]

Great, good luck!

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]oboffill wrote:
Pretty much every high level bodybuilder prior to 1980 trained high frequency, high volume. It wasn’t until guys started juicing like crazy that growing off of sub-par routines became the norm. It sucks that it’s taken so long for bodybuilding routines to come around again. [/quote]

Indeed. I read an interview with Bill Pearl last week in regards to arm training and he mentioned that if he wanted a client to grow his arms he would have them do 20 sets for both bi’s and tri’s three times per week and a full body workout on three other days a week. Heavy light medium schedule and no sets taken to failure…

Good stuff, can’t find the link anymore unfortunately,

Marc