Hey Skinnymuscles - I’ve been reading your posts with interest. You seem like me in many ways, but probably stronger. That is crazy volume you can handle. Do you mind me asking what kind of weights can you move? I’m curious. And have you always been strong or did you start out weaker and build up strenght?
Hey Sara! I have read through your posts as well, and it sounds like we have a lot in common. It’s nice to hear about another female who is trying to “bulk” rather than lose fat/tone, and who takes lifting seriously!
I didn’t mean to sound cocky in my post, and I hope I didn’t come across that way at all. I am strong FOR MY SIZE, but not near as strong as other women and men who are much larger than me.
Some numbers? Umm, I don’t want to embarass myself but, well, squat is around 120 pounds, bentover row is 100 lbs, pulldowns around 75 or 80 pounds… leg press just under 300 pounds. So not super strong by any means, but probably stronger than your average 100 pounder out there! haha
I am curious, what does your diet look like. I can totally relate to some of the issues you were having that you addressed in some of your posts. Are you doing an anabolic type diet? How many cals are you taking in to grow? It sounds like you do a lot of cardio… do you do it on days you lift too?
I think you said you were doing a 4 on, 3 off split with AM full body sessions in each one? I’m a bit nervous to go the full body route (always done a split routine and just absolutely hammered whatever muscle I was training), but I am excited for something new, and hoping it will help me stay lean while i pack on the mass. How has it been working for you? DO you feel like you’ve been putting on quality muscle?
Thanks again Mark for replying.
I know I keep switching things around, but I am really hoping to get to the gym twice a day as many days of the week as I can. I just love it and it is such a stress reliever for me. Would something like this be ok, or is this too many workouts?
Mon- am- workout 1
pm workout 2
Tues- am- workout 3
pm- workout 4
Wed- am- sprinting/ HIIT
pm- routine taken from “Waterbury’s Summer Project” :
Circuits: 3
Reps: 15
Load: 15RM (This 15RM will decrease with each circuit)
A1 BB Deadlift
Rest 45s
A2 BB Back Squat
Rest 45s
A3 Hack Squat
Rest 90s and repeat twice more
B1 Military Press (DB or BB)
Rest 30s
B2 Bench Press (DB or BB)
Rest 30s
B3 Dips or Decline Press (DB or BB)
Rest 60s and repeat twice more
C1 Chins or Pulldowns w/palms up
Rest 30s
C2 Seated Row w/palms up
Rest 30s
C3 Straight Arm Lat Pulldown or DB Pullovers
Rest 60s and repeat twice more
Thurs- repeat Mon, possibly change exercises around
Fri- repeat Tues
Sat- repeat wed
Sun- off!
Do you think I could pull that off? I calculated all of the volume for each body part, and it is less volume per week than I was doing before… but instead of blasting the muscle twice a week for like 40-50 sets each, I am now “spreading it out” throughout the week.
Is this MORE effective for lean mass gains? Anyone else… standtall or dischoss or sara or anyone at there I would love your opinions as well…
Oh yea, I am taking your advice on going heavier, so I changed the rep-ranges to look like this… better?
Workout 1-
A1. Back Squat 7 X 4, 1 X 20 (for the burn & to get my hr up!)
A2. Flat Bench, 7 X 4
B.1. V-Bar pulldown, 7 X 4
B.2 Seated Military Press, 7 X 4
C.1 Leg Press, 6 X 5
C.2 Bentover Row, 6 X 5
D.1 Barbell rope Curls, 5 X 6
D.2 Tricep Rope Extensions, 5 X 6
Workout 2-
A1 Front Squat- 3 X 10
A2 Lat Pulldown- 3 X 10
B1 Hack Squat- 3 X 10
B2 Decline Bench Press 3 X 10
C1 One Arm Row 3 X 10
C2 Lateral Raises 3 X 10
D1 Incline Hammer Curls 3 x 10
D2 Dips 3 X 10
Workout 3-
6 X 5
A1 Deadlift
A2- Bicep Curls
B1- Power Clean and Press
B2- Incline Bench Press
C1 Seated Row
C2- Close Grip Bench Press
D1- Chinups
D2- Leg Curls
Workout 4-
3 X 10-12
A1 SLD
A2 Upright Row
B1 Flat Bench Press
B2 V-Bar Pulldown
C1 T-bar Row
C2 Bicep Incline Curls
D1 Lunges
D2 Tricep pushdowns
skinnymuscles
I don’t know if you want my advice at all, but I’ll give it since marc mentioned me looking through your posts.
First, if you want to do your plan try it, that is the only way you will know how you respond. You have to believe in something for it to work. It seems you really want to and so I’d say go for it because you will probably wonder if it would work and regret not trying it so go for it.
Now, you are struggling to put on more muscle so lets say your plan does not work, or even that it does and you now have to go to school and work and don’t have the time to do such enormous volumn. The question becomes, what now?
I would do lower volume, lower reps. I’d try to convert as many possible muslce fibers to type II as possible. You indicate that you don’t think this will work, it can take months. If you notice the 30 day mass plan is low volume high frequency.
Now, the other thing that I think will work well, but I beleive is better to use after lower volume higher frequency is EDT. It is a tremendous amount of work in a short amount of time.
Most women are afraid of eating fat. I believe personally that fat is a very underutilized macro nutrient and is very calorie dense. When and where you use it depends on your body and your diet. If you are low carb all day, use it all day and don’t worry about what type of fat it is with the exception being transfat.
You need good fats but the “bad” fats are not bad on a low carb diet. On a low carb diet carbs are not important around training. In fact the most important meal is before training in that case make sure you eat the pre training meal around an hour before training. If you do carb+protein in the morning and fat+protein at night then you know where to add fat. Good fats to add to whey or whey and casin shakes are extra virgin olive oil, flax oil, fish oil, extra virgin coconut oil (very tasty!), but don’t add fat to post workout shakes.
For some people like Marc the 33/33/33 works really well, and that is fairly moderate carbs actually, most people end up eating more carbs than that and that is the only problem I see with that diet.
If you are on a high carb diet then Surge is good, if you are on a low carb diet, I’m not a big fan of it.
You could always try the 30 Day Mass plan and add a short session at night that focuses on a lagging body part.
[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
Oh yea, I am taking your advice on going heavier, so I changed the rep-ranges to look like this… better?
Workout 1-
A1. Back Squat 7 X 4, 1 X 20 (for the burn & to get my hr up!)
A2. Flat Bench, 7 X 4
B.1. V-Bar pulldown, 7 X 4
B.2 Seated Military Press, 7 X 4
C.1 Leg Press, 6 X 5
C.2 Bentover Row, 6 X 5
D.1 Barbell rope Curls, 5 X 6
D.2 Tricep Rope Extensions, 5 X 6
Workout 2-
A1 Front Squat- 3 X 10
A2 Lat Pulldown- 3 X 10
B1 Hack Squat- 3 X 10
B2 Decline Bench Press 3 X 10
C1 One Arm Row 3 X 10
C2 Lateral Raises 3 X 10
D1 Incline Hammer Curls 3 x 10
D2 Dips 3 X 10
Workout 3-
6 X 5
A1 Deadlift
A2- Bicep Curls
B1- Power Clean and Press
B2- Incline Bench Press
C1 Seated Row
C2- Close Grip Bench Press
D1- Chinups
D2- Leg Curls
Workout 4-
3 X 10-12
A1 SLD
A2 Upright Row
B1 Flat Bench Press
B2 V-Bar Pulldown
C1 T-bar Row
C2 Bicep Incline Curls
D1 Lunges
D2 Tricep pushdowns [/quote]
Marc
I actaully really find the way the Dutch are very refreshing. I don’t always care where I stand with people, but with the Dutch you don’t need to wonder and even if you disagree you can get over it with a beer and mutual respect, or that is my impression. It seems that they will accept you as long as you can come to a place of mutual respect.
I don’t mean to highjack this thread, thanks for the info Marc
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
StandTall wrote:
Ah Marc you are speaking my language brother. I wish you would be there too! 
What you describe is normally how I experience a new place. People think I’m crazy, but I walk all over and just start talking to people. I flew into Amsterdam last year but stayed in they airport because of a shorter layover. Is the airport close to the city then and 6 hours is enough to go and do something? That is the main thing!
If so I’ll certainly be walking, riding a boat and drinking a beer. I have always enjoyed talking to Dutch people very forward and upfront, I like that. Very open minded too, but if you step out of line they can help you find your place.
haha, that’s true! Heck they even do that to Dutch people who’ve gone away for a while
My people are indeed forward and upfront, very patriotic too, perhaps even more so then Americans
Every time I return home I have conversations about why in God’s name I would want to live anywhere else and what possibly could be wrong with me and they are serious too, it’s not meant in good fun.
I love that though, good times. It usually happens over a good three course dinner with lots of beer added.
In regards to your lay over:
The airport has a train station in it. If I remember correctly it is less then 20 minutes to Amsterdam Central so you should have at least 4 1/2 hours to enjoy a walk and a beer…or two…or three
be well,
marc
[/quote]
Just started to 2nd training cycle. Train went fine. I’m stronger than last week, could use more weight in every exercise.
I’ll keep you posted.
greets
thanks for replying standtall, I was hoping you might chime in! I have a question about the routine. I currently have one bicep and one tricep exercise each workout (so one in the am, one in the pm for both biceps and triceps), and then on wed, I was planning to just to EDT for my arms.
so:
mon- w/o 1 am
w/0 2 pm
tues- workout 3 am
workout 4 pm
wed- 100 meter sprints am
arms EDT, abs pm
thurs- same as mon
fri- same as tues
sat- 100 meter sprints am
light full body (15-20 reps) pm
sun- off
My question is, is this TOO much arm work? WOuld I be better off doing another light full body on wed (15-20 reps), rather than doing the arms EDT? Also, my legs are EXTREMELY skinny… and I am really hoping to bring those suckers up. (read chad’s "skinny leg syndrom article!) I am hoping that the light full body workouts and high reps will not inhibit their growth… can you confirm this?
Finally, do you feel that a full body approach is better than a routine such as:
Mon- am- legs heavy
Tues- am- Back heavy
Pm- chest/shoulder heavy
Wed- am- sprints
Pm- arms, abs, calves
Thurs- workout 1
Workout 2
Fri- workout 3
Workout 4
Sat- am- sprints
pm- arms, abs, calves
Sun- off
or even something like:
Mon- am- legs- quad dominant
pm- chest/shoulder
tues- am- back
pm- arms
wed- sprints
thurs- repeat mon
fri- repeat tues
sat- sprints + full body
sun- off
As far as diet goes, how do you feel about a ratio such as 50 protein/ 30 fat/ 20 carb ?
I personally do feel that full body is better.
Are arms a weakness also? I’d pick one body part bi’s and tri’s are fine and try to improve it. If they are what you want to improve then the way you are training them is basically what I’m doing for my biceps and calves. I do find if I over train my triceps it does more harm than good. My triceps are very large though compared to my biceps.
My legs actually grow more from high reps than they do from low reps. The reason being that for years I did very low rep training. I rarely ever did above 3 reps and never above 6. Growth occurs from new stimuli.
That new stimuli can be anything really, it should be intelligent though!
[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
thanks for replying standtall, I was hoping you might chime in! I have a question about the routine. I currently have one bicep and one tricep exercise each workout (so one in the am, one in the pm for both biceps and triceps), and then on wed, I was planning to just to EDT for my arms.
so:
mon- w/o 1 am
w/0 2 pm
tues- workout 3 am
workout 4 pm
wed- 100 meter sprints am
arms EDT, abs pm
thurs- same as mon
fri- same as tues
sat- 100 meter sprints am
light full body (15-20 reps) pm
sun- off
My question is, is this TOO much arm work? WOuld I be better off doing another light full body on wed (15-20 reps), rather than doing the arms EDT? Also, my legs are EXTREMELY skinny… and I am really hoping to bring those suckers up. (read chad’s "skinny leg syndrom article!) I am hoping that the light full body workouts and high reps will not inhibit their growth… can you confirm this?
Finally, do you feel that a full body approach is better than a routine such as:
Mon- am- legs heavy
Tues- am- Back heavy
Pm- chest/shoulder heavy
Wed- am- sprints
Pm- arms, abs, calves
Thurs- workout 1
Workout 2
Fri- workout 3
Workout 4
Sat- am- sprints
pm- arms, abs, calves
Sun- off
or even something like:
Mon- am- legs- quad dominant
pm- chest/shoulder
tues- am- back
pm- arms
wed- sprints
thurs- repeat mon
fri- repeat tues
sat- sprints + full body
sun- off
As far as diet goes, how do you feel about a ratio such as 50 protein/ 30 fat/ 20 carb ?
[/quote]
well, its actually my legs that I really really need to bring up. But I want big, buff arms too! haha… so you think the full body program with the wed/sat devoted to sprints/arms will help acomplish both of these goals?
Skinnymuscles
I forgot to comment on the diet. I’m assuming that your break down is a per meal break down or is it a per day break down? On diet, I think that would work and is certainly better than most of the population. I’m very partial to very low carb diets with carb loads ie the AD. Sarah does something very similar to the AD in that she eats very little carbs and only around training. When she feels she needs more she eats more.
The only way to see if a diet will take you where you want to go is to give it an honest chance.
I also wanted to say that you should just decide what you want to do in training and do it! The reason being is that the sooner you try it the sooner you know if it works. You will need to push it hard for as long as you can and then rest! Don’t fear the rest! Embrace the rest. Right Sarah? 
[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
thanks for replying standtall, I was hoping you might chime in! I have a question about the routine. I currently have one bicep and one tricep exercise each workout (so one in the am, one in the pm for both biceps and triceps), and then on wed, I was planning to just to EDT for my arms.
so:
mon- w/o 1 am
w/0 2 pm
tues- workout 3 am
workout 4 pm
wed- 100 meter sprints am
arms EDT, abs pm
thurs- same as mon
fri- same as tues
sat- 100 meter sprints am
light full body (15-20 reps) pm
sun- off
My question is, is this TOO much arm work? WOuld I be better off doing another light full body on wed (15-20 reps), rather than doing the arms EDT? Also, my legs are EXTREMELY skinny… and I am really hoping to bring those suckers up. (read chad’s "skinny leg syndrom article!) I am hoping that the light full body workouts and high reps will not inhibit their growth… can you confirm this?
Finally, do you feel that a full body approach is better than a routine such as:
Mon- am- legs heavy
Tues- am- Back heavy
Pm- chest/shoulder heavy
Wed- am- sprints
Pm- arms, abs, calves
Thurs- workout 1
Workout 2
Fri- workout 3
Workout 4
Sat- am- sprints
pm- arms, abs, calves
Sun- off
or even something like:
Mon- am- legs- quad dominant
pm- chest/shoulder
tues- am- back
pm- arms
wed- sprints
thurs- repeat mon
fri- repeat tues
sat- sprints + full body
sun- off
As far as diet goes, how do you feel about a ratio such as 50 protein/ 30 fat/ 20 carb ?
[/quote]
I think it will go a long way toward helping accomplish your goals.
[quote]skinnymuscles wrote:
well, its actually my legs that I really really need to bring up. But I want big, buff arms too! haha… so you think the full body program with the wed/sat devoted to sprints/arms will help acomplish both of these goals? [/quote]
Today I should have done my first post-recovery workout. Well, I did sort of. I went and did my first training with Olympic Style liftinig under the tutelage of a coach. As it did not resemble the workouts I was doing in the Super Accumulation program, it’s hard to make any remarks on progress. I will do another OLY training tomorrow. Wednesday I should be able to do one of my Super Accumulation workouts for a comparison.
I can say that I feel like I had a delayed onset of the depression, etc. I did not really start feeling it until the last couple of workouts in the Super Accumulation program. I think I am still feeling it. My weak point is my sleep. If anything is out of whack with my system, I first notice it in poor sleep. Well, I started having upset sleep during post-recovery. I blamed this in part on the T Booster, but maybe I was wrong to do so. It will pass in a few days.
I did get motivated during my Oly Training tonight though.
[quote]StandTall wrote:
Skinnymuscles
I forgot to comment on the diet. I’m assuming that your break down is a per meal break down or is it a per day break down? On diet, I think that would work and is certainly better than most of the population. I’m very partial to very low carb diets with carb loads ie the AD. Sarah does something very similar to the AD in that she eats very little carbs and only around training. When she feels she needs more she eats more.
The only way to see if a diet will take you where you want to go is to give it an honest chance.
I also wanted to say that you should just decide what you want to do in training and do it! The reason being is that the sooner you try it the sooner you know if it works. You will need to push it hard for as long as you can and then rest! Don’t fear the rest! Embrace the rest. Right Sarah?
skinnymuscles wrote:
thanks for replying standtall, I was hoping you might chime in! I have a question about the routine. I currently have one bicep and one tricep exercise each workout (so one in the am, one in the pm for both biceps and triceps), and then on wed, I was planning to just to EDT for my arms.
so:
mon- w/o 1 am
w/0 2 pm
tues- workout 3 am
workout 4 pm
wed- 100 meter sprints am
arms EDT, abs pm
thurs- same as mon
fri- same as tues
sat- 100 meter sprints am
light full body (15-20 reps) pm
sun- off
My question is, is this TOO much arm work? WOuld I be better off doing another light full body on wed (15-20 reps), rather than doing the arms EDT? Also, my legs are EXTREMELY skinny… and I am really hoping to bring those suckers up. (read chad’s "skinny leg syndrom article!) I am hoping that the light full body workouts and high reps will not inhibit their growth… can you confirm this?
Finally, do you feel that a full body approach is better than a routine such as:
Mon- am- legs heavy
Tues- am- Back heavy
Pm- chest/shoulder heavy
Wed- am- sprints
Pm- arms, abs, calves
Thurs- workout 1
Workout 2
Fri- workout 3
Workout 4
Sat- am- sprints
pm- arms, abs, calves
Sun- off
or even something like:
Mon- am- legs- quad dominant
pm- chest/shoulder
tues- am- back
pm- arms
wed- sprints
thurs- repeat mon
fri- repeat tues
sat- sprints + full body
sun- off
As far as diet goes, how do you feel about a ratio such as 50 protein/ 30 fat/ 20 carb ?
[/quote]
Yep embrace rest. Im tryin to learn.
As far as you asked skinnymuscles, I do not actually do any cardio. I find it eats away muscle for me. I do lead an active lifestyle too (excuse the typos my keyboard is broken)
As for puttin on quality mass? I dont know. I feel fat a lot, but I am tryin to just accept tis as a part of te process to et somewere better.
Your plan is much more volume tan mine, but see were you o!
good luck!
Would you mind describing the Oly training? For instance was it a bunch of pull variations with the bar or something? Do you think it is taxing?
[quote]entheogens wrote:
Today I should have done my first post-recovery workout. Well, I did sort of. I went and did my first training with Olympic Style liftinig under the tutelage of a coach. As it did not resemble the workouts I was doing in the Super Accumulation program, it’s hard to make any remarks on progress. I will do another OLY training tomorrow. Wednesday I should be able to do one of my Super Accumulation workouts for a comparison.
I can say that I feel like I had a delayed onset of the depression, etc. I did not really start feeling it until the last couple of workouts in the Super Accumulation program. I think I am still feeling it. My weak point is my sleep. If anything is out of whack with my system, I first notice it in poor sleep. Well, I started having upset sleep during post-recovery. I blamed this in part on the T Booster, but maybe I was wrong to do so. It will pass in a few days.
I did get motivated during my Oly Training tonight though.[/quote]
[quote]StandTall wrote:
Would you mind describing the Oly training? For instance was it a bunch of pull variations with the bar or something? Do you think it is taxing?
[/quote]
There were about 6 of us and the coach. The others were rather advanced trainees. All of them have competed in Oly lift meets.
First, the coach had me do a bunch of front squats.
Then I had to do hang cleans…but unlike a power clean, I had to go down into a full front squat after cleaning the bar to shoulders. I did a number of sets of 5s with that.
Then cleans pulling from the floor, still finishing with full front squats. And when I say “full” front squats, I am talking about “ass to the grass”.
Then I did the snatch portion. First I did a number of sets of overhead squats.
Then a nother series of sets where I pulled from the floor and did the upper movement which consisted of rising on my toes, doing shrug movement and something that looks similar to an upright row. Then the next series of sets was a full snatch, going down to a full overhead squat.
Was it taxing? Well, I didn’t need the puke bucket, but I was shaking like a leaf by the time I got out of the place.
And keep in mind, he had me using relatively light weights because he was teaching me technique.
God have pity on me when I start having adequate technique and the weights become heavier! Even though prior to this I was going fairly deep on my squats, this guy really made me go deep into the hole…that hit my legs hard.
Standtall, given that you are over there in Afghanistan, what kind of training equipment do you have access to? No doubt somebody on T-Nation has asked you this before but I havent come across it and was just curious.
Entheogens, I’d love to hear more detail of your experience with the program. How much of a weight % reduction did you see at the end? Did you manage all the workouts, what recovery methods did you use etc… And of course the tester workout results coming up.
First off thank you for the view of training. I appreciate it. Did he critique your every set and rep or was it more hands off?
The gyms over here in Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much like the commercial gyms in the states as far as equipment goes. The atmosphere is not quiet as bad, but you see people doing some really stupid shit! Most guys are still doing the muscle and fitness thing. They don’t care when I deadlift or anything like that. The gym I’m in currently is called a clamshell, and it is like a really big tent, you could fit a C130 airplane in it. If you are interested I’ll take a picture or two.
[quote]entheogens wrote:
Standtall, given that you are over there in Afghanistan, what kind of training equipment do you have access to? No doubt somebody on T-Nation has asked you this before but I havent come across it and was just curious. [/quote]
[quote]StandTall wrote:
First off thank you for the view of training. I appreciate it. Did he critique your every set and rep or was it more hands off?
The gyms over here in Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much like the commercial gyms in the states as far as equipment goes. The atmosphere is not quiet as bad, but you see people doing some really stupid shit! Most guys are still doing the muscle and fitness thing. They don’t care when I deadlift or anything like that. The gym I’m in currently is called a clamshell, and it is like a really big tent, you could fit a C130 airplane in it. If you are interested I’ll take a picture or two.
[/quote]
Well, he did critique me, but not to the point of making me self-conscious. He just critiqued the major flaws. For example, when I was pulling I had my feet too far apart. Likewise when I exploded into the clean, my feet were going way too wide.
Things like that. I would say his level of commentary was just right. Not completely hands-off, but also not critiqing me to the point that I became overly self-conscious of every move.
Tent or no tent, your description of the afghani gym sounds better than I expected. Is this a commercial gym or one that the US military has set up? Yes, I’d like too see pics of that gym, if it’s not too much trouble.