Training Till Depressed: Results

Training Bodybuilding
181

Day 6 went also fine. Used more weights than in the sesions before. I failed on the first set of pulldowns (overestimated the weight I can handle), in the 2nd set I decreased the weight.
There’s no doubt that the “light” sessions are the most challenging ones. The heavy days feel like a breeze compared to the high rep sessions.

I feel like my arms grew a little, seemed bigger in the mirror while training than usual. I’m also starting to lose enthusiasm regarding training every day, perhaps the first sign of tiredness.

greets

182

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response. I have written some comments below.

Doug,

That’s great stuff. Thanks for chiming in and adding your considerable experience.
I should have scrolled down first before I answered Sarah :slight_smile:

Marc[/quote]

Yes, thanks so much Doug!

This weekend’s trip ended up being great fun. I still actually worked out up to 1 day before, but I had no problems. I guess after the first 10 days my body got used to the program? Does that mean the second time through it isn’t working as well?

I guess in either case I’m trying to come up with another plan for now.

Doug - do you worry about mixing carbs and fats while hiking? I wanted to go kinda lower carb esp. after reading David Barr’s newest article, but I still just had to eat my oatmeal and I ended up eating a few lower carb bars too. I had lots of mixed things too like hummus and low carb tortillas and such. I figure when hiking it will all just get burned anyway?

If I’m doing a climb should I be having sugars like to spike insulin as in weights, or are slower carbs best to keep blood sugar level? Once on the top of a really high pass I had some sugary treats and my sugar crashed after I got down and the second pass we did that day I felt really really shaky. I’m not sure of the philosophy to be used while hiking. Maybe it’s just eat. :slight_smile:

I was dying to get to the gym today, but I’m taking it off (got back late last night.) I feel guilty for taking it off though. I’m not sore at all.

183

Marc-

May I ask you another question about diet? I have been thinking from David Barr’s newest article that I should not be increasing my carbs but rather my fats.

I wanted to do carb cycling, but I wasn’t really esp since I was working out every day, and then I started thinking on the off days I should be eating carbs to fill up my muscles to have a great workout the next day, etc, so I ended up eating more carbs.

Do you think I should be having low/no carb days? What’s your opinion on this?

Also, I feel like sort of I’m doing this on a mini scale every day. Since I workout in the morning after just whey and possibly fruit I am working off glycogen stores. So if I have had no carbs the day before I’ll have nothing there to start with and that might be bad. I thought that I did poorly in the gym a day after a no carb day, but I’m not 100 percent sure of this conclusion. Maybe it’s mental.

Today (day after getting back from backpacking) I had weird tastes in the morning so I decided to just go no carb. I wanted to workout tomorrow. Do you think this is a bad idea?

184

hey marc, i did what Poliquin suggested by doing the monday workout and tuesday workout after the program…since then i have gone back to a leg/back/bi…chest/shoulder/tri split. i have also noticed some great gains on exersises that wernt on the progam, esspacially bench press,military press, triceps and all back exersises

185

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Marc-

May I ask you another question about diet? I have been thinking from David Barr’s newest article that I should not be increasing my carbs but rather my fats.

I wanted to do carb cycling, but I wasn’t really esp since I was working out every day, and then I started thinking on the off days I should be eating carbs to fill up my muscles to have a great workout the next day, etc, so I ended up eating more carbs.

Do you think I should be having low/no carb days? What’s your opinion on this?

Also, I feel like sort of I’m doing this on a mini scale every day. Since I workout in the morning after just whey and possibly fruit I am working off glycogen stores. So if I have had no carbs the day before I’ll have nothing there to start with and that might be bad. I thought that I did poorly in the gym a day after a no carb day, but I’m not 100 percent sure of this conclusion. Maybe it’s mental.

Today (day after getting back from backpacking) I had weird tastes in the morning so I decided to just go no carb. I wanted to workout tomorrow. Do you think this is a bad idea?

[/quote]

Personally I feel and look better when increasing my (good) fats and taking in the minimal amount of good carbs (through fruit and veggies).

I believe that one should find his/her minimal amount of carbs they can work with and then take 1-2 grams of protein per lbs of bodyweight and a minimum of 0.5 grams per lbs of bodyweight. Start there and increase fat first, the protein (if really needed) and then carbs).

The minimal amount for carbs is different for each individual (learned that from Anabolic Diet manual) and can be as little as no carbs or as high as 150 grams per day.

I can handle a decent amount of carbs but only when my protein is very high.
Also, the higher my intake of healthy fats the less i crave carbs.

Even if I do, I stick to high fibre fruits like apples, pears, apricots, dried prunes and raisens. I also like blueberries and pineapple, especially frozen in my shakes. A little adds a lot of taste and not much in the way of carb grams.

You can also follow poliquin’s tip and take glutamine after a workout instead of carbs to fill glycogen stores. Worked for me too.

Keep the fruit at breakfast and midmorning and the rest of the day healthy fats, protein and veggies.
After the training session simple carbs are ok as well, of course but if you are worried about fat you might avoid them and go with protein only.

I do not think it is a bad idea to skip the carbs in the am and then train tomorrow however, you total calorie intake must be as if you did eat carbs. Makes sense? If you are used to eating 1500 calories per day from Prot, Carb and fat and you skip the carbs you still need to eat 1500 calories (or whatever your amount)!
You must increase protein and fat amount!

Most people forget that part and that’s when they get weak and can’t train. They simply forget that they took in much less total calories!

Good luck,

marc

186

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
sarah1 wrote:
Marc-

May I ask you another question about diet? I have been thinking from David Barr’s newest article that I should not be increasing my carbs but rather my fats.

I wanted to do carb cycling, but I wasn’t really esp since I was working out every day, and then I started thinking on the off days I should be eating carbs to fill up my muscles to have a great workout the next day, etc, so I ended up eating more carbs.

Do you think I should be having low/no carb days? What’s your opinion on this?

Also, I feel like sort of I’m doing this on a mini scale every day. Since I workout in the morning after just whey and possibly fruit I am working off glycogen stores. So if I have had no carbs the day before I’ll have nothing there to start with and that might be bad. I thought that I did poorly in the gym a day after a no carb day, but I’m not 100 percent sure of this conclusion. Maybe it’s mental.

Today (day after getting back from backpacking) I had weird tastes in the morning so I decided to just go no carb. I wanted to workout tomorrow. Do you think this is a bad idea?

Personally I feel and look better when increasing my (good) fats and taking in the minimal amount of good carbs (through fruit and veggies).

I believe that one should find his/her minimal amount of carbs they can work with and then take 1-2 grams of protein per lbs of bodyweight and a minimum of 0.5 grams per lbs of bodyweight. Start there and increase fat first, the protein (if really needed) and then carbs).

The minimal amount for carbs is different for each individual (learned that from Anabolic Diet manual) and can be as little as no carbs or as high as 150 grams per day.

I can handle a decent amount of carbs but only when my protein is very high.
Also, the higher my intake of healthy fats the less i crave carbs.

Even if I do, I stick to high fibre fruits like apples, pears, apricots, dried prunes and raisens. I also like blueberries and pineapple, especially frozen in my shakes. A little adds a lot of taste and not much in the way of carb grams.

You can also follow poliquin’s tip and take glutamine after a workout instead of carbs to fill glycogen stores. Worked for me too.

Keep the fruit at breakfast and midmorning and the rest of the day healthy fats, protein and veggies.
After the training session simple carbs are ok as well, of course but if you are worried about fat you might avoid them and go with protein only.

I do not think it is a bad idea to skip the carbs in the am and then train tomorrow however, you total calorie intake must be as if you did eat carbs. Makes sense? If you are used to eating 1500 calories per day from Prot, Carb and fat and you skip the carbs you still need to eat 1500 calories (or whatever your amount)!
You must increase protein and fat amount!

Most people forget that part and that’s when they get weak and can’t train. They simply forget that they took in much less total calories!

Good luck,

marc[/quote]

cool. Thanks for the reply. I will try this - keeping carbs to a minimum except some fruit and around training. Do you think having 1-2 higher carb days is a good idea or no?

Also, I’ve been debating on these tortillas for like a year:

http://www.latortillafactory.com/jadworks/ltf/jwsuite.nsf/ViewSelection/26D37C24E4814A3B8825723B006711A5?Open&site=Home*ViewSelection=Products**dl

They seem pretty decent in ingredients, but then again, they have flour and are in a bag. Could I use these in a low carb diet counting the 3 “net” carbs or should I avoid them do you think? I just avoided them but I do like them.

Also, what do you think of things like hummus which are really mixed - they do have carbs from beans and then fats and oils too…

187

Day 3

I missed last night’s workout because i had to take care of some family business…so i decided to go in the morning. the only problem was i literally couldnt get up. i try to pep talk and belittle myself into getting up. i basically called my a “pussy” for not getting up and agreed with myself and went back to sleep…lol.
I decided to punish myself by adding the morning workout to tonights’. I also had to complete it in 1 and a half hours. it was ugly.

Workout
Behind the back deadlifts
225x6;6;6;6;6
Trap bar Deadlifts/ Shrugs
275x 6;5;5;4;4
Close grip Pullups
35 pounds plus BW:3 ; 25 pounds :3 reps Bw; 6;6;6
Incline Dumbell Press
65 X 6;6;6;6;6
Reverse Curls
75x6;6;6;6
Donkey Raises
Bw plus 90 pounds x 8;8;8
Seated Calf Raises
225 x 10;10;10;10;10
Dumbell Back rows
75x6;6;6;6;6
Seated Dumbell Press
50x6;6;6;6;6
Summary
This was just a rough workout. I took less than a minute breaks. it was pure intensity. The deadlifts took a lot out of me. I did have enough energy to use weight on the last 3 sets of the pullups. I learned my lesson. I definitely wouldnt be skipping morning workouts. Thank God tomorrow is independence day. I Need the break. I have gained 4 pounds so far.

Mental Status
Im in pain but i feel great. Seating down hurts because of the squats. Other than walking like a used up hooker,im still sane.

188

Hi Sarah, I’m glad you had a good hiking trip. I responded below to your questions.

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Yes, thanks so much Doug!

This weekend’s trip ended up being great fun. I still actually worked out up to 1 day before, but I had no problems. I guess after the first 10 days my body got used to the program? Does that mean the second time through it isn’t working as well?

I guess in either case I’m trying to come up with another plan for now.

Doug - do you worry about mixing carbs and fats while hiking? I wanted to go kinda lower carb esp. after reading David Barr’s newest article, but I still just had to eat my oatmeal and I ended up eating a few lower carb bars too. I had lots of mixed things too like hummus and low carb tortillas and such. I figure when hiking it will all just get burned anyway? [/quote]

Here’s the way I look at hiking and nutrition. If you are going to be moving for 6+ hours (many times this could be 12 or more hours too) carrying weight over varied terrain you are going to burn a lot of calories. In my research of hikers on the Pacific Crest Trail I found they were burning 6,000 to 8,000 calories or more a day.

With this kind of calorie expenditure there is no way you can eat enough food to sustain yourself. You can get huge calorie deficits. It could easily be 2-3,000 per day. Now this is my biggest fear. Then, if on top of that a person tries to take ‘healthy food’ they probably will be able to carry less calories because ‘healthy food’ will usually weight more per ounce then less healthy food.

I usually prioritize high calories over nutrients. I figure the larger the calorie deficit the more you’re likely to break down muscle tissue than eating less than optimal macro nutrient ratios. I do try to make sure I’m getting protein each time I each but I really focus more on food that has a pretty high calorie to weight ratio and tastes pretty good. If it doesn’t taste very good then you’re less likely to eat as much.

Another thing to consider is long duration endurance and energy levels with low carb diets. My wife did an experiment where she did the 2 week induction phase on the South Beach diet. She had almost no carbs each day outside of vegetables. She was okay for workouts in the gym for an hour or so.

However when doing a hike lasting more than a couple of hours she was zapped. Two weeks later back on carbs she climbed Rainier like a race horse. It was a huge difference. She just wrote an article about her experience at Body Results

I suspect most people will do better on long endurance if they are having a good amount of carbs. It might mean that you would do better to eat low carb when doing your strength and then have higher carb starting the day before and during multi day hiking trips.

[quote]
If I’m doing a climb should I be having sugars like to spike insulin as in weights, or are slower carbs best to keep blood sugar level? Once on the top of a really high pass I had some sugary treats and my sugar crashed after I got down and the second pass we did that day I felt really really shaky. I’m not sure of the philosophy to be used while hiking. Maybe it’s just eat. :slight_smile: [/quote]

I think the real key is to be eating every hour or so while hiking. This could be high sugar stuff at times or not. If you eat every hour then you shouldn’t have a crash because you will be getting a pretty steady stream of fuel. You might much of trail mix, have a sports bar or whatever.

189

I’m on day 8 of my second go around of 10 days straight of training. It is not hitting me as hard this time as it was last time. I’m up another 2 lbs at 242 and could not sleep two nights ago so I went to the gym at 11pm to do deadlift which I have not done in around 6 weeks.

Everything felt light. My grip was strong. I was able to double overhand 365lbs and used to struggle double overhanding 315. I did 405x3 and x1 then did 315x8. My back is fried. I was able to shower and fall to sleep quickly at 1am and then had a hard time at work all day yesterday, so I did not go to the gym.

Today was back at the gym and feeling strong. I’m planning to eat a load of food today and will take measurements in a few days.

Marquos,

What type of training do you respond best to after high frequency training? I was thinking of a 3 day a week training with one heavy lift and then EDT for two 15 minute sessions each day. So it would look like this for day one

Deadlift Heavy

EDT
Chinups and Dips

EDT
Calves and 1 legged deadlifts

I would follow this template for the two other training days too.

190

Day 7:
Training was good, could again up the weights in every single exercise. I’m Looking forward to the 5 days rest to see how much mass I can gain :slight_smile:

Today I’ve been a little tired and listless, but after a 2 hour “nap” I was fresh and could work out. Nutrition is very good so far. Wasn’t sleeping that much since I don’t know when. So, there’s nothing that should interfere with great results (I hope so).

191

I find this thread VERY interesting and I am hoping you all can help me…

I am very used to high volume and I have a lot of free time the next 10 weeks to just eat, train, and sleep. I want to shock my body into growth.

I am looking for a 5 or 6 day a week HFT program with AM/PM sessions at least 2 or 3 times a week, perhaps everyday. I was hoping someone could post their HFT routine for me or give me some suggestions.

I have read Chad and Charles’ articles and have read “Bodybuilding’s Next Frontier”, and would like to do something similar, but with perhaps more volume. I want to focus on the compound exercises, and really go for mass. I am a very experiences lifter and respond well to high volume/intensity so I want something that will surely shock my body.

IanMarquois- you seem really knowledeable, do you have any sample routines/recommendations on how to set such a split up? Or anyone else out there that could post their HST routine? Thanks so much all. Look forward to reading…

192

IAMMARQUOIS- can you look at this for me? I have come up with a HFT routine/hybrid that I hope will do this… As I have saif I have A LOT of free time the next 5 or 6 weeks so I can basically just train, eat, sleep, rest, and hopefully … Grow!

I am used to high volume (sometimes 50 + sets for muscles in a single session) and I really think that although it looks insane, I can handle it provided I get appropriate nutrition and rest.
Please review and critique… would love any opinions.

I am trying to really bring up my back and legs so there are sometimes a few more exercises for these bodyparts than the others…

Here we go:

Day 1- AM

6X6
A1 Back Squat
A2 Seated Row
B1 Push Press
B2 Barbell flat Bench Press
C1 Chin-ups
C2 Dips
D1 Leg Curls
D2 Weighted Crunches

Day 1- PM
4 X 10-12
A1 Front Squat
A2 T-Bar Row
B1 Straight Leg Deadlift
B2 Wide Grip Lat Pulldowns
C1- Dumbell Incline Bench Press
C2 Seated Bent Over Lateral Raises
D1 Barbell Bicep Curls
D2 Close Grip Bench Press

Day 2- AM
6X6
A1- Leg Press
A2 Bicep Rope Curls
B1- Deadlifts
B2- Tricep Rope Extensions
C1- Power Clean and Press
C2- Hammer Curls
D1- V-bar Lat Pull-downs
D2- Decline Bench Press

Day 2- PM
4 X 10-12
A1- Sumo Squats
A2- Flat Bench Press
B1- Walking Lunges
B2- Supinated (close grip) pull downs
C1- Bent Over one arm Rows
C2- Dips
D1- Seated Military Press
D2â¿¿Seated Alternating dumbbell curls

Day 3- full body â¿¿lightâ¿¿ circuit- 15-20 reps of each exercise- one per bodypart. 3 or 4 times through. Will include 20 rep squats
OR
Track workout

Day 4- AM
6X6
A1 Hack Squat
A2 Seated Row
B1 Push Press
B2 Peck Deck
C1 Chin-ups
C2 Dips
D1 Lying Leg Curls
D2 Walking Lunges

Day 4- PM
4 X 10-12
A1 Front Squat
A2 T-Bar Row
B1 Straight Leg Deadlift
B2 Wide Grip Lat Pulldowns
C1- Dumbell Incline Bench Press
C2 Seated Bent Over Lateral Raises
D1 Barbell Bicep Curls
D2 Close Grip Bench Press

Day 5- AM
6 X 6
A1- Leg Press
A2 Bicep Rope Curls
B1- Hammer Strength Low Rows
B2- Tricep Rope Extensions
C1- Power Clean and Press
C2- Hammer Curls
D1- V-bar Lat Pull-downs
D2- Decline Bench Press

Day 5- PM
4 X 10-12
A1- Front Squats
A2- Flat Bench Flies
B1- Walking Lunges
B2- Supinated (close grip) pull downs
C1- Bent Over one arm Rows
C2- Dips
D1- Seated Military Press
D2â¿¿Seated Alternating dumbbell curls

Day 6- Track workout- sprints/bleachers

Day 7- 30 min incline treadmill walking

Supplemental ab work will be done every other day, with 10 sets of calves on the alternate days.

193

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
cool. Thanks for the reply. I will try this - keeping carbs to a minimum except some fruit and around training. Do you think having 1-2 higher carb days is a good idea or no?

Also, I’ve been debating on these tortillas for like a year:

http://www.latortillafactory.com/jadworks/ltf/jwsuite.nsf/ViewSelection/26D37C24E4814A3B8825723B006711A5?Open&site=Home*ViewSelection=Products**dl

They seem pretty decent in ingredients, but then again, they have flour and are in a bag. Could I use these in a low carb diet counting the 3 “net” carbs or should I avoid them do you think? I just avoided them but I do like them.

Also, what do you think of things like hummus which are really mixed - they do have carbs from beans and then fats and oils too…

[/quote]

Hi Sarah, hope you had a great 4th!
I do think it is a good idea to incorporate 1-2 days of higher carbs, but only you can determine when the best days are. I find that once every three to four days I need some more carbs especially if I use higher volume training. Other people do 2 days in a row after 5 days low carb. Eperiment a little. When your muscles go flat, add some more carbs.

Those tortillas seem fine to me and if you mix them with good ingredients no need to worry.

Personally I love hummes and I balance them with egg whites and olive oil.

Good luck!

194

Hello Boys,

Got done with day 10 of Waterbury’s latest gig.

No depression, no loss of strength, no soreness after a day or two.

Stength went up every session and I actually hate to stop for the next 5 days. I dig the 20 minute workouts every day.

Will consider upping the volume for the second 10 day rotation.

Will post again after my initial 5 day recuperation phase is done and then again after the full 30.

This was easy…which makes me a bit worried. :wink:

DH

195

Day 9:

Well, I continue to hit new PRs in both the deadlift, front squat and back squat. Go figure.

I am not sure what to make of this, as Poliquin indicates that, at this point, I should be decrementing weight. Perhaps it is indeed that I have not been going “ball to the walls”. I did go “balls to the walls” this morning and will continue to add intensity to my remaining workouts.

In any case, no matter what the results of the post-rest period brings, I have already hit much higher personal records in lifts that matter most to me.
So, that in itself means the program has been succesful for me.

A bit sore, a bit of joint pain but no depression yet, no reminiscing nostalgically about High School, neither do I feel compelled to go out and rent “Love Story” at Blockbuster.

196

Day 8:
Was relly tired this day. Came home from school at 5 pm, ate and took a nap. Then went to train which was fine, could up the weights or did more reps in each and every exercise. Looking forward to the 5 days rest now.

197

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
Today (day after getting back from backpacking) I had weird tastes in the morning so I decided to just go no carb. I wanted to workout tomorrow. Do you think this is a bad idea?

[/quote]

Nope, as long as you realize that skipping carbs does not mean skipping calories! The calories you lose by going no-carb still need to be ingested by eating protein and fat.

Marc

198

[quote]german-guy wrote:
I’m also starting to lose enthusiasm regarding training every day, perhaps the first sign of tiredness.

greets[/quote]

Yes it is. Keep it up for the next couple of days!

Good luck!

199

[quote]DIPS33 wrote:
hey marc, i did what Poliquin suggested by doing the monday workout and tuesday workout after the program…since then i have gone back to a leg/back/bi…chest/shoulder/tri split. i have also noticed some great gains on exersises that wernt on the progam, esspacially bench press,military press, triceps and all back exersises[/quote]

That’s great to hear. I was initially blown away by the increases in strength as well even on exercises I had not done!

How about increases in size (not just bodyweight)?

200

[quote]Dsmoove wrote:
Day 3

I missed last night’s workout because i had to take care of some family business…so i decided to go in the morning. the only problem was i literally couldnt get up. i try to pep talk and belittle myself into getting up. i basically called my a “pussy” for not getting up and agreed with myself and went back to sleep…lol.
I decided to punish myself by adding the morning workout to tonights’. I also had to complete it in 1 and a half hours. it was ugly.

.[/quote]

Ha! That’s funny. Looks like a lot of hard work! Keep it up and keep eating as much as possible since you added work to the program! Eat during your sessions too if you can!

Marc