Training Rotator Cuffs

[BHOLL]

[quote]fama wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
your not making much sense, firstly the subscapularis has the highest percentage of fast twitch fibers which is in accordance with why pitchers can throw a baseball hard. The supraspinatus has the highest percentage of slow twitch fibers and is the muscle heavily involved in stabilization while overhead pressing.[/quote]

You’re correct - I meant to say supraspinatus (not subscap), as the supraspinatus is the one (the only one) that’s more than 1/2 ST, at the specified 54%.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
Furthermore, you are correct, the elderly age does make a difference, BUT this only further suggests that these numbers favor fast twitch %'s as a decrease in activity actually increases the % of fast twitch fibers. hence the older population in this study most likely skewed the numbers in favor of FT fibers. The more training your perform the more % type 1 and type IIa are biased. Hence why bodybuilders are heavily type 1/type IIa.[/quote]

Let me see if I have this right: you’re saying that FT fibers – the stronger, larger fibers – actually increase as one ages, or as one becomes more “detrained” ???

Uhh…sorry, I just don’t believe that at all. And I believe that if bodybuilders have more Type I and IIa fibers than, say, powerlifters have of Type IIb, it’s because of the METHODS bodybuilders use: traditionally with longer TUT, often with slower lifting tempos, etc.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:
do you think holding a bar over your head is much more challenging then 8-10 reps of a reasonable weight?[/quote]

Yes.

BHOLL wrote:In conclusion I am not making a case against overhead Iso’s but merely a case for why sidelying ER with dumbbells in the scapular plane is a worthwhile exercise.

Sure, I don’t think anyone really disputes that - it’s just that (as CT himself has said in the Livespills quoted above) the usefulness of such exercises is limited, and it’s not the only way these muscle should trained.

[/quote]

I know this is comprehensive stuff, but try and understand. We are talking percentages, not fiber thickness. Define stronger? strength-endurance, maximal strength, explosive strength. Type IIx generally produce 10x greater peak power then type 1. I guess you didnt take my advice and read T-nations very own Jacob Wilsons paper published in NSCA 2012. Let me quote it for you:“research indicates that a lack of exercise may facilitate changes between slow and fast twitch fibers. For example Hortobagyi et al investigated the effects of 3 weeks of knee immobilization. Knee immobilization reduced type 1 fiber percentages by 9% and increased type II X 12%.”

As for the second part,isn’t that what we’ve been talking about, fiber shifting, duh, bodybuilders spend generally little rest and lots of time under tension shifting fiber type to I and IIA.

Part 3, regardless of what you think is more challenging, the fact of the matter is an isometric hold will accomplish much less as far as translating to other movements as well as generating hypertrophy and does not stress the RTC eccentrically which it is often injured. Therefore, if chosing and isometric vs. conc/ecc exercise the latter is often preferred as it has greater training effect as well as carry over

[fama]

BHOLL, I’m going to ignore the generally condescending language and tone of your last post and just reiterate the point I made earlier (which is not even “my” point, but something Poliquin said - namely, the ERH are not purely ST/endurance/ postural muscles and therefore they need to be trained, at least some of the time, with heavier weights or explosive movements like the Snatch or Clean. CT himself more or less agreed with that (I hope I am not misinterpreting him).

I was not talking about isometrics at any point, so I’m not sure why you keep mentioning them. Frankly this back-and-forth is exhausting. Have fun lifting…

[LoRez]

Lol @ the back and forth.

Minor update. The last two days and nights I’ve managed to have effectively zero RC tendon pain, thanks to working that pullapart series hard. I’ve even added in some overhead pressing and had no issues during or after. Very surprised at how well that’s worked for me. I should have picked up a band much much sooner.

Thank you youngoldguy for sharing that.

[BHOLL]

[quote]fama wrote:
BHOLL, I’m going to ignore the generally condescending language and tone of your last post and just reiterate the point I made earlier (which is not even “my” point, but something Poliquin said - namely, the ERH are not purely ST/endurance/ postural muscles and therefore they need to be trained, at least some of the time, with heavier weights or explosive movements like the Snatch or Clean. CT himself more or less agreed with that (I hope I am not misinterpreting him).

I was not talking about isometrics at any point, so I’m not sure why you keep mentioning them. Frankly this back-and-forth is exhausting. Have fun lifting…

[/quote]

I agree with the first part, (minus the notion that 15 pounds is NOT heavy for training the average gym goes RTC, it is).

“You” are not talking about isometrics, the links provided in this thread (which you probably ignored), one written by CT, are articles written on isometric holds. That is all

[Airtruth]

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I don’t actually see a good need to train the rotator cuff directly, except in a rehab type of scenario like I’m dealing with.[/quote]

maybe thats why your hurt…
[/quote]

No, I’m hurt because I did some maximal explosive behind-the-neck pressing, and lowered the bar to my traps, while not having adequate T-spine mobility.[/quote]

behind the neck maximal presses??? the 80s called and what that exercise back brothaaaa[/quote]

lol

[Apothecary]

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Lol @ the back and forth.

Minor update. The last two days and nights I’ve managed to have effectively zero RC tendon pain, thanks to working that pullapart series hard. I’ve even added in some overhead pressing and had no issues during or after. Very surprised at how well that’s worked for me. I should have picked up a band much much sooner.

Thank you youngoldguy for sharing that.[/quote]

Good to hear, I need to get back into these myself. I’ve got historically bad RC durability, dating back to HS wrestling. I’ve dislocated both shoulders numerous times playing sports (thankfully never under a bar, though). Yesterday during a football game, I popped my left shoulder out again. Ugh.

Felt OK a few hours after, but after sleeping on it, it’s killing me today. I’m supposed to bench today, and it still feels on the verge of subluxing again, so I guess I’ll sit this one out and do some RC work.

Much like you, I only train the RC after the injury/issue, but I’m debating doing it daily to keep issues at bay.

[pitcher43]

[quote]Apothecary wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Lol @ the back and forth.

Minor update. The last two days and nights I’ve managed to have effectively zero RC tendon pain, thanks to working that pullapart series hard. I’ve even added in some overhead pressing and had no issues during or after. Very surprised at how well that’s worked for me. I should have picked up a band much much sooner.

Thank you youngoldguy for sharing that.[/quote]

Good to hear, I need to get back into these myself. I’ve got historically bad RC durability, dating back to HS wrestling. I’ve dislocated both shoulders numerous times playing sports (thankfully never under a bar, though). Yesterday during a football game, I popped my left shoulder out again. Ugh.

Felt OK a few hours after, but after sleeping on it, it’s killing me today. I’m supposed to bench today, and it still feels on the verge of subluxing again, so I guess I’ll sit this one out and do some RC work.

Much like you, I only train the RC after the injury/issue, but I’m debating doing it daily to keep issues at bay. [/quote]

Sounds to me like you have a labrum problem more than a rotator cuff problem. The labrum is often more associated with what you are experiencing with the popping out of the shoulder often you have a clicking or popping with it. Think of a golf ball on a tee the labrum would be the the ring that makes the golf tee concave so the ball doesn’t fall off the tee. Having said that the best way to prevent labrum issues is with strong rotator cuff as it diminishes the stress on the labrum. I’ve had 2 shoulder surgeries once on the rotator cuff the other time on the labrum with a rotator clean up.

[Apothecary]

[quote]pitcher43 wrote:

[quote]Apothecary wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Lol @ the back and forth.

Minor update. The last two days and nights I’ve managed to have effectively zero RC tendon pain, thanks to working that pullapart series hard. I’ve even added in some overhead pressing and had no issues during or after. Very surprised at how well that’s worked for me. I should have picked up a band much much sooner.

Thank you youngoldguy for sharing that.[/quote]

Good to hear, I need to get back into these myself. I’ve got historically bad RC durability, dating back to HS wrestling. I’ve dislocated both shoulders numerous times playing sports (thankfully never under a bar, though). Yesterday during a football game, I popped my left shoulder out again. Ugh.

Felt OK a few hours after, but after sleeping on it, it’s killing me today. I’m supposed to bench today, and it still feels on the verge of subluxing again, so I guess I’ll sit this one out and do some RC work.

Much like you, I only train the RC after the injury/issue, but I’m debating doing it daily to keep issues at bay. [/quote]

Sounds to me like you have a labrum problem more than a rotator cuff problem. The labrum is often more associated with what you are experiencing with the popping out of the shoulder often you have a clicking or popping with it. Think of a golf ball on a tee the labrum would be the the ring that makes the golf tee concave so the ball doesn’t fall off the tee. Having said that the best way to prevent labrum issues is with strong rotator cuff as it diminishes the stress on the labrum. I’ve had 2 shoulder surgeries once on the rotator cuff the other time on the labrum with a rotator clean up.
[/quote]

Probably true, especially for the left shoulder. The right one DID have an RC tear, but that was 10 years ago. The golf tee analogy sounds exactly right; I’ve had quite a few “almost” dislocations, like a ball rocking on the tee. Spent yesterday icing the shoulder and doing some band work. Debating sitting out the whole week, but that’s really hard for me to do. Probably smart though.

I’ve been following the Indigo protocol, or other HFSW templates for ~14 weeks so far, and it seems to be catching up to my joints. Specifically knees, hip flexors, shoulders, and wrists. I don’t want to “program hop”, since I was hoping to stay on the Indigo systems for 6 months (2 cycles) but I don’t want to risk injury or long-term damage either.