TMA Training Hub

Since we’ve kinda super-derailed the Injury thread, I figure we should have a place for the TMA here.

Currently I’m away from my instructor’s school (permanent move to new city), so I’m keeping up my weight training (currently running Waterbury’s TBT, with a rep modification for chin-ups), my kata, footwork drills, and forearm/shin conditioning.

My teacher’s teacher, though, who is a student of a man who studied under the founder of Isshinryu, is moving down here in a few months, so I’m not going to be school-less for long.

I’ll bite.

Since I am currently only doing Judo I would fall more into the traditional martial arts. Although this Judo is my fourth style to take, I still consider myself a traditional guy. I enjoy doing katas and many of the formal drills. So I will post here now rather than the MMA training hub.

Here was todays strength workout.

Front Squat 5X5
One arm snatch 8X3
Clean Low Pull 8X3
DB Bench Press 6X4

Look at this blatant TMA elitism!

:-p

looking forward to reading guys.

Lulz. I’m not abandoning the MMA Training Hub, but I’m not going to litter it with hundreds of posts about my kata, conditioning, and bodybuilding hypertrophy workouts. For there, I’m going to stick to posting those classes I get to attend, primarily those involving sparring and various person-to-person (or people) drills.

I find that katas can be a good way to warm up. One of the things I learned from training with our Grandmaster was to slow down the kata so they were more like Tai Chi. You can really focus on form and the kinetic linking of a move when you slow it down.

You also can keep a flow to the form where you don’t ever totally stop. ie You throw a punch, when it reaches the end of it’s travel and you lock up and Yang is at it’s max (like you do in Sanchin) for a moment.

Then you go into the Yin phase where you are retracting the punch while at the same time letting everything relax. This is something which should also be done in Sanchin but usually isn’t, which is why people have had strokes and dropped dead doing Sanchin, because they spend their whole time in yang.

Learning how to get that ebb and flow of Yin and Yang is how you get the most power out of your striking. It’s also a healthy way to train.

For lifting my favorite lift is deadlift. I have found German volume training 10x10 to be very intense with deadlift. It’s demanding on the system like a fight.

You just need to be careful not to lose count of the sets which I’ve done a few times. I like heavy singles and doubles also because they give strength without adding a lot of bulk.

I think the best exercise for functional strength, cardio and overall man strength is sled drags/pulls etc.

I dont suppose you know a website where we can find one without overpaying?!

[quote]steelsleds wrote:
I think the best exercise for functional strength, cardio and overall man strength is sled drags/pulls etc.

[/quote]

[quote]steelsleds wrote:
I think the best exercise for functional strength, cardio and overall man strength is sled drags/pulls etc.

[/quote]

As a Beta-tester for the sled that T-Nation gave me I have to say I love mine. And T-Nation rocks for giving me such a gift.

Our katas in TKD were always performed as rapidly as the technique would allow. This was primarily because my TKD was WTF ( my teacher William Kim was son of Hae Yong Kim, one of the founders of the WTF) so it is of no surprise really that they were taught with an emphasis on competition. But we did also use our kata as a form of meditation / shadowboxing. A mind / body visualization technique. Honestly I hated kata as a sport, especially weapons kata and never placed higher than 3rd. But I really enjoyed kata as a form of technique study and it did really help me with my technique and my awareness.

One of my other favorite things from my TKD days was the focus on the spiritual and the person as a good person in society. From the 5 tenets of TKD (courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control and indomitable spirit)to the requirements of the study of the history of Tae Kwon Do and Korea, to the various volunteer things we would do for our community and the general family atmosphere that prevailed there. I don’t know if experiences like that are available at most schools, but it was just as important to me as anything else I learned.

I found a shotokan school not too far from my house. I have done anything with the style since 1998(about a year after getting my shodan), So I might stop by and see if I can workout with them from time to time. It would be nice to knock the rust off, especially if it is for a good price.

There are different uses for kata, especially the traditional ones. One of the cool aspects of the Isshinryu system is that all our kata are black belt level kata. Seisan which we teach to white belts is a bleck belt kata in the Shorinryu system. So maybe this doesn’t apply to other systems as much.

But at least in our system all the kata represent a body of knowledge that is deep. One of the things that my knowledge of kata has accelerated is the learning of other sytems, like Wing Chun kung fu. The reason why is often I learn something that is a new inerpretation of a move I already have in my own systems kata.

Here is something for you Vash. This is the Wing Chum form Chum Kiu. If you watch it you’ll see elements of several Isshinryu forms in it. The videos I have at home are clearer parralells with some of the moves but tis will give you some idea. At .20 you’ll see a double strike like in chinto. .23-26 Wansu end move .28 seiuchin beginning .39 Seisan X block which many teachers mistakenly call a “set”. There are no sets in Isshinryu kata just moves teachers don’t know the Bunkai for. They use x block a lot in Wing Chun. .40 seiuchin

Here is the same form again, not the best quality but

Here is the 3rd form Biu Gee.
You really see the X block and circle step.

Here is an interesting video demonstrating Wing Chun. Notice how it’s short quick moves, punches use verticle fist elbow in, low kicks to take out the base.

Okinawan karate is descended from Chinese White Crane kung fu which is a Southern Shaolin kung fu. Wing Chun is a southern Shaolin style. The southern Shaolin styles are meant for close in fighting, against people on foot. While the Northern Shaolin are long ranging like TKD. Northern will use high kicks which were intended to take people the Mongolians off of a horse.

[quote]JohnnyNinja wrote:
Our katas in TKD were always performed as rapidly as the technique would allow. This was primarily because my TKD was WTF ( my teacher William Kim was son of Hae Yong Kim, one of the founders of the WTF) so it is of no surprise really that they were taught with an emphasis on competition. But we did also use our kata as a form of meditation / shadowboxing. A mind / body visualization technique. Honestly I hated kata as a sport, especially weapons kata and never placed higher than 3rd. But I really enjoyed kata as a form of technique study and it did really help me with my technique and my awareness. [/quote]

If you are always blazing through your forms as fast as possible it’s hard to develop your technique. Martial arts techniques begin down at your toes and you have to bring the energy up through your body like a wave. The analogy many use is it is like a whip. What they mean is when you first jerk the end of a whip the energy travels through it as a sine wave that flows from one end to the other in a continuous movement. If you are always going full speed it is difficult to tell if you are a big part of that wave somewhere.

When you get a move down it is possible to do the move slow up to the last bit of travel then zing it at the end and get some decent power.

[quote]
One of my other favorite things from my TKD days was the focus on the spiritual and the person as a good person in society. From the 5 tenets of TKD (courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control and indomitable spirit)to the requirements of the study of the history of Tae Kwon Do and Korea, to the various volunteer things we would do for our community and the general family atmosphere that prevailed there. I don’t know if experiences like that are available at most schools, but it was just as important to me as anything else I learned.[/quote]

That was something some of my teachers and I liked about TKD too. The development of the individuals character instead of just being a killing machine. I know I needed that! All that bowing and yes sirring was one of the most important things I did, because I needed to learn some respect. More than one of my teachers had the patience of a saint, when it came to me.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
There are different uses for kata, especially the traditional ones. One of the cool aspects of the Isshinryu system is that all our kata are black belt level kata. Seisan which we teach to white belts is a bleck belt kata in the Shorinryu system. So maybe this doesn’t apply to other systems as much.

But at least in our system all the kata represent a body of knowledge that is deep. One of the things that my knowledge of kata has accelerated is the learning of other sytems, like Wing Chun kung fu. The reason why is often I learn something that is a new inerpretation of a move I already have in my own systems kata.

Here is something for you Vash. This is the Wing Chum form Chum Kiu. If you watch it you’ll see elements of several Isshinryu forms in it. The videos I have at home are clearer parralells with some of the moves but tis will give you some idea. At .20 you’ll see a double strike like in chinto. .23-26 Wansu end move .28 seiuchin beginning .39 Seisan X block which many teachers mistakenly call a “set”. There are no sets in Isshinryu kata just moves teachers don’t know the Bunkai for. They use x block a lot in Wing Chun. .40 seiuchin

Here is the same form again, not the best quality but

Here is the 3rd form Biu Gee.
You really see the X block and circle step.

Here is an interesting video demonstrating Wing Chun. Notice how it’s short quick moves, punches use verticle fist elbow in, low kicks to take out the base.

Okinawan karate is descended from Chinese White Crane kung fu which is a Southern Shaolin kung fu. Wing Chun is a southern Shaolin style. The southern Shaolin styles are meant for close in fighting, against people on foot. While the Northern Shaolin are long ranging like TKD. Northern will use high kicks which were intended to take people the Mongolians off of a horse. [/quote]

I always wondered where the Sifu part came from. I took Wing Tsun for about fours years. I still train from time to time with my old instructor. He is no longer with Lueng Ting due to (surprise, surprise) Politics.

I find interesting that you interpret those move as x blocks. It was never described as that to me.

Interesting how two styles Wt/Wc which are really the same interpret the moves totally different.

I am actually a sensei in the system I study. The reason why I chose sifu is I like the Chinese way of teaching which isn’t so dictatorial as the Japanese sensei system.

Given the choice between being the sensei from the Cobra Kai dojo in karate kid or Master Po from Kung Fu, I would rather be Master Po.

In the form Seisan we have a move that is real similar that we call an X block. But the way I learned it in Wind Chun is the the upper hand is a block and lower hand is a strike to the lower abdomen. Then the upper hand is a pak sao or pulls the opponents hand down which is the same as in saeisan but the lower hand instead of becoming a gakei block like in seisan rotates up into a back fist. The movements are really similar but have a different interpretations.

That is the point I was making about kata or forms accelerating learning. Two different styles will take a move that is similar but have two totally different interpretations to it. For me learning the wing chun interpretation was a real aha moment because the WC people also put an angle in that move that deflects and sets the body up for a more powerful backfist.

Just a few techniques gave me a whole bunch of new ideas. I need to go back so I can learn more, but time is kind of tight and I am thinking about studying BJJ next so I can get up to speed on that.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
I am actually a sensei in the system I study. The reason why I chose sifu is I like the Chinese way of teaching which isn’t so dictatorial as the Japanese sensei system.

Given the choice between being the sensei from the Cobra Kai dojo in karate kid or Master Po from Kung Fu, I would rather be Master Po.

In the form Seisan we have a move that is real similar that we call an X block. But the way I learned it in Wind Chun is the the upper hand is a block and lower hand is a strike to the lower abdomen. Then the upper hand is a pak sao or pulls the opponents hand down which is the same as in saeisan but the lower hand instead of becoming a gakei block like in seisan rotates up into a back fist. The movements are really similar but have a different interpretations.

That is the point I was making about kata or forms accelerating learning. Two different styles will take a move that is similar but have two totally different interpretations to it. For me learning the wing chun interpretation was a real aha moment because the WC people also put an angle in that move that deflects and sets the body up for a more powerful backfist.

Just a few techniques gave me a whole bunch of new ideas. I need to go back so I can learn more, but time is kind of tight and I am thinking about studying BJJ next so I can get up to speed on that. [/quote]

I’m with you…

How far did you get in Wing Chun?

I would like to spend some more time training in it as well, but my instructor is atleast 50 min. away. So that is why I only train with him here and there. It is also rather contrary to my current Judo training. I do still use some of the chi-sau drills in Judo. works well until my gi gets wrapped up.

Not far at all. I mainly used tapes to study it. Though I have done a little training with Wing Chun people. I’m a third degree black belt in Isshinryu so I already had that as a foundation. So if I see something I really like I incorporated it.

I wouldn’t normally suggest learning martial arts from a video for most people. But since I already had solid background in a similar system and was looking to enhance my knowledge of it I think it’s okay. It also helps that I am a good visual learner.

There are a lot of similarities in that both systems are “in-fightintg” systems. They are not based upon animal forms so we are not trying to be monkeys or tigers or praying mantis’s. The animal we are trying to be is the human animal. That is why we say Isshinryu is based upon natural body movement and positioning.

One thing we don’t practice in Isshinryu is Chi Sau. But we do have the basic movement of double sticky hands in the kata Sanchin which we got from Gojuryu. We also have Gakie in the kata Seisan.

In Goju they use Gakie as a single sticky hands drill. Gojuru founder Chojun Miyagi studied kung fu in China, that is why the Goju kata have a lot of Chinese style hand movements.

I have done a lot of push hands with my tai chi, chi gung teacher. Those sensitivty drills are real helpful, for close in grappling. But they are one of the more esoteric aspects of the martial arts so the marines who brought the Isshinryu system back from Okinawa weren’t interested, they just wanted to know how to kill.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Not far at all. I mainly used tapes to study it. Though I have done a little training with Wing Chun people. I’m a third degree black belt in Isshinryu so I already had that as a foundation. So if I see something I really like I incorporated it.

I wouldn’t normally suggest learning martial arts from a video for most people. But since I already had solid background in a similar system and was looking to enhance my knowledge of it I think it’s okay. It also helps that I am a good visual learner.

There are a lot of similarities in that both systems are “in-fightintg” systems. They are not based upon animal forms so we are not trying to be monkeys or tigers or praying mantis’s. The animal we are trying to be is the human animal. That is why we say Isshinryu is based upon natural body movement and positioning.

One thing we don’t practice in Isshinryu is Chi Sau. But we do have the basic movement of double sticky hands in the kata Sanchin which we got from Gojuryu. We also have Gakie in the kata Seisan.

In Goju they use Gakie as a single sticky hands drill. Gojuru founder Chojun Miyagi studied kung fu in China, that is why the Goju kata have a lot of Chinese style hand movements.

I have done a lot of push hands with my tai chi, chi gung teacher. Those sensitivty drills are real helpful, for close in grappling. But they are one of the more esoteric aspects of the martial arts so the marines who brought the Isshinryu system back from Okinawa weren’t interested, they just wanted to know how to kill.
[/quote]

I agree Chi-sau is a very esoteric parts of wing tsun. It is also one of the most effective too. I use that aspect of my training a lot when I am doing judo. In many ways I find it makes it easier for me to get superior hand positioning when we do randori. I also take advantage of the fact that most people don’t know what to do when a hand gets trapped.

The only down side is the gi throws alot of my chi-sau skill off. Can’t really roll your arms when someone has your gi sleeve.

Excellent website I found with a plethora of articles on real life application of Karate and katas. Makes a lot of good points.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

And here’s an excerpt from an Iain Abernathy interview by Geoff Thompson. Interesting about katas, grappling, and real fighting.

Geoff Thompson: From my own experience of kata/bunkai practice, classes learn a given applications, do it a couple of times, and then move on to something else. Do you think that there is room in the contemporary dojo to incorporate grappling - as taught in kata - into the curriculum proper?

IA: There simply has to be. Without the inclusion of the close range aspects, on a consistent basis, the art is essentially incomplete. Grappling is part of karate and it is my view that it must be included in regular practice. The striking should always be the priority however. It has been said that the essence of karate is found in ending the fight with a single blow. Close range fighting includes both striking and grappling and it is important to use the right method at the right time. When an opponent makes their initial grip, it is not our aim to become involved in a long drawn out wrestling match. The more time we spend entangled with an opponent, the more time their unentangled colleagues will have to repeatedly strike us. Grappling an opponent into submission can take time, whereas a well placed strike can end a fight in a split second. A great many of the kata’s grappling techniques free limbs and position opponents so decisive strikes can take place. The danger is that we place so much emphasis on the striking that we totally omit the grappling. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and hence grappling should be a part of regular practice.

Geoff Thompson: This would mean that when karataka spar, any range would be allowed and many of the fights would end up in grappling and then on the ground. Is the karate world ready for this?

IA: Some are and some aren’t. It is my understanding that a significant number of Okinawan & Japanese dojos train in this way, so one would not think it should be a problem. But I guess it must be because so few are practising in this way already. This omission is probably down to individuals failing to understand the need for skills at all ranges. Whether the karate world is ready or not, the omission of close range techniques will leave the student woefully unprepared for a live confrontation. If the karateka understands the nature of live fights and has sufficiently practised and understood their katas, I feel they would embrace all-range sparring as a means to further develop their skills.

Geoff Thompson: At this level true karate - certainly in the sparring or in a real fight - would not look unlike the fights on the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship).

IA: In terms of the fighting being at every range, then yes, it would be similar. In other respects it would be radically different. Karate was designed specifically for use in a civilian environment against untrained attackers. It was never intended for use on a battlefield or in a sporting arena against a trained fighter. The methods in karate were designed by monks, sailors, scholars and other civilians. The type of attacks such people were likely to encounter would be the attacks of the violent and untrained, e.g. wild swings, tackles, head butts etc. as opposed to the skilled combinations of a trained fighter.

As a result, the katas do not contain the counters to counters to counters that a samurai on a battlefield, or the modern combat sports practitioner, would need. The counters that do exist in the katas are typically responses to an opponent stopping the karateka from gouging the eyes, seizing the throat or crushing the testicles, typically by grabbing the wrist before the technique can be completed. The katas also contain strikes to weak points, stamps, small joint manipulation etc. The UFC does not allow such techniques and the katas do not provide methods for countering a skilled fighter in a rule bound environment.

Obviously, the more brutal methods are omitted from sparring but they can be indicated. If I firmly take hold of the inside leg of my partners Gi, I could just have easily seized the testicles. This would be acknowledged and the bout stopped. Another major difference is the amount of time spent on the ground. In some UFC bouts, fighters have remained on the floor for over half an hour. To do so in reality would effectively amount to suicide. In our ground fighting practice, if one participant should regain their feet whilst the other is prone, the vertical fighter is declared the winner. So in both real fights and sparring, karate would look different from the UFC in some ways but would be similar in others.

Another long, but excellent post on the differences between sport and fighting, along with the applications of kata in real life.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_5.asp