The Importance of Kata

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

I put KATA in the search function but not much came up, so here goes…

I’m a jujutsu guy and a former wrestler and I’m ready for a change to a striking oriented martial art. My gut instinct is to go with boxing but there is a good Kempo school in my area and I know one of the teachers. The guy has some impressive sparring abilities but I’m reluctant to train the way he does. A big part of his training is traditional karate kata.

He does these kata almost daily but I don’t see what it’s doing for him. I think his sparring abilites come from sparring, not pretending to fight using techniques you don’t use outside of the kata. Maybe this is the bias of my background but you don’t learn to roll by pretending to grapple an imaginary opponent. Maybe I’m not comparing apples/oranges.

Those of you who train in any kind of stand-up traditional kata, what do you think kata training is doing for your ability to fight? Or do some of you do kata for it’s own sake?

2

Kata’s, I think, are like shadow boxing. Its all about developing muscle memory. Most people think they can throw a jab, but when the actually do it they are completely off and will probably never actually land one. Shadow boxing helps develop your muscle memory similar to kata’s. I trained a little karate at a McDojo many years ago and didnt gain much from it.

3

[quote]admbaum wrote:
Kata’s, I think, are like shadow boxing. Its all about developing muscle memory. Most people think they can throw a jab, but when the actually do it they are completely off and will probably never actually land one. Shadow boxing helps develop your muscle memory similar to kata’s. I trained a little karate at a McDojo many years ago and didnt gain much from it. [/quote]

Allow me to be more specific. In a Kempo kata, you step, you stop, then punch. You step again, slight pause, then punch. There seems to be a disconnect between what the lower body does and what the arms are doing. Blocking and striking are done with the arms, while the body is stable, but stationary. From what I’ve been able to see online, this is fairly typical with karate. This seems to lack the total body dynamic that boxing and MT have. And it only makes me doubt this system more when I see its practitioners never use it during sparring.

Since I’m basically an inexperienced maggot in the martial arts world I’m hoping to see a discussion from those of you who aren’t maggots. Are traditional striking arts that use kata just kickboxing in disguise with a lot of posturing added on to make it look exotic?

4

I’d go with the boxing or muay thai gym…you’ll hit pads, bags, people, you’ll learn how to move CORRECTLY…everything isn’t step, pause, step lol. You get the point though…I don’t want any motherfuckers coming on here saying…BUT BUT…CHUCK LIDDEL DID KEMPO! lol

5

d00d…you’re not going to use a kata during sparring. If you do, you’re gonna be tasting a lot of the floor.

might help.

Chuck used Kempo to great success, but thats not all he has. The old style vs style UFC fighters are no more. Everyone in the game since the early days of UFC use many different styles…mixed martial arts?

Go out and find a coach/teacher or at least some real fighters.

6

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:
I put KATA in the search function but not much came up, so here goes…

I’m a jujutsu guy and a former wrestler and I’m ready for a change to a striking oriented martial art. My gut instinct is to go with boxing but there is a good Kempo school in my area and I know one of the teachers. The guy has some impressive sparring abilities but I’m reluctant to train the way he does. A big part of his training is traditional karate kata.

He does these kata almost daily but I don’t see what it’s doing for him. I think his sparring abilites come from sparring, not pretending to fight using techniques you don’t use outside of the kata. Maybe this is the bias of my background but you don’t learn to roll by pretending to grapple an imaginary opponent. Maybe I’m not comparing apples/oranges.

Those of you who train in any kind of stand-up traditional kata, what do you think kata training is doing for your ability to fight? Or do some of you do kata for it’s own sake?[/quote]

What is your purpose for learning the martial art? That’s the first, and most important question here.

As far as kata, it’s very similar to shadowboxing- muscle memory for the moves, make it become instinct, visualize your opponent, etc. It works, too. Just because it doesn’t look like boxing doesn’t mean it doesn’t “work,” although again, the question of why do you want to learn is paramount.

7

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:
I put KATA in the search function but not much came up, so here goes…

I’m a jujutsu guy and a former wrestler and I’m ready for a change to a striking oriented martial art. My gut instinct is to go with boxing but there is a good Kempo school in my area and I know one of the teachers. The guy has some impressive sparring abilities but I’m reluctant to train the way he does. A big part of his training is traditional karate kata.

He does these kata almost daily but I don’t see what it’s doing for him. I think his sparring abilites come from sparring, not pretending to fight using techniques you don’t use outside of the kata. Maybe this is the bias of my background but you don’t learn to roll by pretending to grapple an imaginary opponent. Maybe I’m not comparing apples/oranges.

Those of you who train in any kind of stand-up traditional kata, what do you think kata training is doing for your ability to fight? Or do some of you do kata for it’s own sake?[/quote]

What is your purpose for learning the martial art? That’s the first, and most important question here.

As far as kata, it’s very similar to shadowboxing- muscle memory for the moves, make it become instinct, visualize your opponent, etc. It works, too. Just because it doesn’t look like boxing doesn’t mean it doesn’t “work,” although again, the question of why do you want to learn is paramount. [/quote]

The purpose is to improve my sparring ability. So boxing would seem like a no-brainer accept my Kempo friend’s ability is fucking with my mind. And now so are you. I expected you to post and tell me kata is bullshit just learn to box but you had to get all even handed on me. Jesus. What the fuck do I do now?

I jest. I don’t think his kata is doing a damn thing. So I’ll box. I’d rather spend that time doing drills, combinations on a heavy bag and hiting something that hits me back.

But I will say this much, kata sure is pretty.

8

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:

The purpose is to improve my sparring ability. So boxing would seem like a no-brainer accept my Kempo friend’s ability is fucking with my mind. And now so are you. I expected you to post and tell me kata is bullshit just learn to box but you had to get all even handed on me. Jesus. What the fuck do I do now?

I jest. I don’t think his kata is doing a damn thing. So I’ll box. I’d rather spend that time doing drills, combinations on a heavy bag and hiting something that hits me back.

But I will say this much, kata sure is pretty.

[/quote]

hahahah.

Well listen man, if you want to be able to spar better, then box or do Muay Thai. Many of the martial arts were designed with self defense in mind, and not sparring. Kempo, Goju-ryu, issinryu, these were defense arts first and not really meant for compeition.

And kata is an excellent training tool- as i said previously, it serves the exact same function as shadowboxing, and its a good way to preserve the art.

Plus, there’s a lot of moves that are hidden- everything has a purpose in kata, and broken down by a good teacher, really makes sense.

9

Yeah, there’s a lot of joint manipulation and breaks in the Kung Fu kata I did back in high school which is not typically associated with sparring. Mostly, the carry over to sparring I got was improved breathing technique while sparring, stamina (those low stances build leg strength-endurance fast), and learning how to shift my weight correctly.

10

I agree that kata can be very useful when practiced mindfully. That being said, I hated doing it.

Must you be completely exclusive in your training? You seem to respect your friend’s skills, so maybe it would be productive to focus mainly on boxing (or whatever) and train occasionally with your friend. This is a great way to exchange ideas. So many arts are based on similar principles, it can be useful to learn how another system solves the same problem by approaching it from a different point of view.

11

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
I agree that kata can be very useful when practiced mindfully. That being said, I hated doing it.

Must you be completely exclusive in your training? You seem to respect your friend’s skills, so maybe it would be productive to focus mainly on boxing (or whatever) and train occasionally with your friend. This is a great way to exchange ideas. So many arts are based on similar principles, it can be useful to learn how another system solves the same problem by approaching it from a different point of view.[/quote]

This is what I’m thinking. It’ll be interesting to see how a year of boxing will change how I face the guy with the gloves on. He’ll still kick my ass but it’ll be interesting.

12

If I didn’t have my car half apart and running out of daylight I would give you a detailed explanation but for now I’ll just say that Kata is a useful discipline that gets overblown by some and unfairly maligned by others. It is a means to teach a student a large body of knowledge that they can spend a lifetime adding to and developing. It is a way to practice technique and putting them together without the distraction of a live opponent preventing you from focusing on your technique. It is similar to shadow boxing in that you are using visualization but there are differences.

It is a good way to catalog techniques and if you move from one art to another you will find that many of the moves you learn in kata are used in other arts. Sometimes the application of a move in another art might all of a sudden make a lot of sense out of a move that you never liked. So it can be good to keep practicing even things you don’t think you will need. Got to go.

13

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:
I put KATA in the search function but not much came up, so here goes…

I’m a jujutsu guy and a former wrestler and I’m ready for a change to a striking oriented martial art. My gut instinct is to go with boxing but there is a good Kempo school in my area and I know one of the teachers. The guy has some impressive sparring abilities but I’m reluctant to train the way he does. A big part of his training is traditional karate kata.

He does these kata almost daily but I don’t see what it’s doing for him. I think his sparring abilites come from sparring, not pretending to fight using techniques you don’t use outside of the kata. Maybe this is the bias of my background but you don’t learn to roll by pretending to grapple an imaginary opponent. Maybe I’m not comparing apples/oranges.

Those of you who train in any kind of stand-up traditional kata, what do you think kata training is doing for your ability to fight? Or do some of you do kata for it’s own sake?[/quote]

What is your purpose for learning the martial art? That’s the first, and most important question here.

As far as kata, it’s very similar to shadowboxing- muscle memory for the moves, make it become instinct, visualize your opponent, etc. It works, too. Just because it doesn’t look like boxing doesn’t mean it doesn’t “work,” although again, the question of why do you want to learn is paramount. [/quote]

Well put Irish. Kata,but more importantly bunkai is for self defense. If you want to learn how to fight spar, box, do what works FOR YOU. Kata and bunkai, studied practiced both with cooperative then resisting partners teach you how to defend yourself and to do so long after you are too old to win in toe to toe battles. My jujitsu teacher used to always stress that there is a difference between fighting and defending yourself.

14

Kata shows you how you could do things, not how you should do things. Its kind of like a war dance that many cultures used as a way to teach others. You do not use kata exactly the way you do it but you interpet it to how you see fit. If you like stand up, look for striking movements in your kata. Who says a straight punch in a kata cannot be a jab or a cross? A punch is a punch where ever you go. As a person with a grappling background like yourself, you might find some movements that mimic some wrestling moves you may know. Any person studing any martial art should be using at the minium a heavy bag. Kata is not for everyone. If you are willing to put the time in to learn and study a kata for a while, you will be rewarded for your efforts. If you do not want to, there are always arts like boxing and jujitu that can teach you faster. Different strokes for different folks.

15

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:

[quote]admbaum wrote:
Kata’s, I think, are like shadow boxing. Its all about developing muscle memory. Most people think they can throw a jab, but when the actually do it they are completely off and will probably never actually land one. Shadow boxing helps develop your muscle memory similar to kata’s. I trained a little karate at a McDojo many years ago and didnt gain much from it. [/quote]

Allow me to be more specific. In a Kempo kata, you step, you stop, then punch. You step again, slight pause, then punch. There seems to be a disconnect between what the lower body does and what the arms are doing. Blocking and striking are done with the arms, while the body is stable, but stationary. From what I’ve been able to see online, this is fairly typical with karate. This seems to lack the total body dynamic that boxing and MT have. And it only makes me doubt this system more when I see its practitioners never use it during sparring.

Since I’m basically an inexperienced maggot in the martial arts world I’m hoping to see a discussion from those of you who aren’t maggots. Are traditional striking arts that use kata just kickboxing in disguise with a lot of posturing added on to make it look exotic? [/quote]

Forms should have a flow to them. They should not have a start, stop, start, stop, mechanical quality to them. From what I have seen of Kempo in particular they really like to flow their techniques rapid fire.

There actually needs to be a precise timing to your stepping and striking so that your movement from stance to stance is part of your power generation. So your lower and upper body should have a co-ordination to them, though it may not be one that you are familiar with.

Striking in martial arts is different from boxing because in martial arts there are other factors you have to take into consideration that boxers don’t have to think about. For example, boxers can put a full body commitment into a punch that can put them in an imbalanced position because they don’t have to worry about their opponent grappling them and using their imbalance to get them down for some ground and pound. Another thing is punches aren’t your only or deadliest technique.

Also body positioning is different because in boxing you have a lot less vital zones for your opponent to attack. In boxing you can stand fully squared off because you don’t have to worry about getting your knee kicked out or kicked in the groin.

Another thing to bear in mind is that while sparring can be a lot like fighting there is some differences between them and self defense. In sparring there is some honor and sportsmanship so you have a chance to get your guard up and prepare yourself. In self defense you can be walking down the street or standing still when out of nowhere someone fires on you. The beginning or build up to a real fight can be unpredictable or even dishonorable. The motivation to sucker punch is it gives the initiative. If you have sharpened your reflexes through sparring and drilled self defense moves you could possibly surprise the hell out of a sucker puncher and turn the tables.

One last point is there are moves in forms that may look flowery or undefined and no one can give you a good explanation of what they are. A lot of those moves are what is known as Chin Na. Chin Na is a Chinese grappling art. Here is my favorite Chin Na teacher.

http://v.ku6.com/show/bPCy-rSZk6TW7Nnu.html

16

Sifu: chin na hurts. A lot. Found out the hard way, fortunately in a training environment.

17

If a beginner would ask me straight: “should I do Kata?”
I would have to tell him not to.

There are a lot of reasons and arguments both pro and contra, but the two that weigh most heavily are:

  1. Most Katas are bs and most [TMA] teachers are full of it, too. So don’t.

  2. There is usually only one, axact way to do a Kata, the sooner you realize that this is a copout, the better.
    With shadowboxing, you learn to establish your rythm and your own style.
    Most Kata are just a way of behaving like a programmed robot for half a minute or two.

Each of these arguments would completely suffice on it’s own.
That doesn’t mean Katas are generally useless.

18

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:

[quote]admbaum wrote:
Kata’s, I think, are like shadow boxing. Its all about developing muscle memory. Most people think they can throw a jab, but when the actually do it they are completely off and will probably never actually land one. Shadow boxing helps develop your muscle memory similar to kata’s. I trained a little karate at a McDojo many years ago and didnt gain much from it. [/quote]

Allow me to be more specific. In a Kempo kata, you step, you stop, then punch. You step again, slight pause, then punch. There seems to be a disconnect between what the lower body does and what the arms are doing. Blocking and striking are done with the arms, while the body is stable, but stationary. From what I’ve been able to see online, this is fairly typical with karate. This seems to lack the total body dynamic that boxing and MT have. And it only makes me doubt this system more when I see its practitioners never use it during sparring.

Since I’m basically an inexperienced maggot in the martial arts world I’m hoping to see a discussion from those of you who aren’t maggots. Are traditional striking arts that use kata just kickboxing in disguise with a lot of posturing added on to make it look exotic? [/quote]

Forms should have a flow to them. They should not have a start, stop, start, stop, mechanical quality to them. From what I have seen of Kempo in particular they really like to flow their techniques rapid fire.

There actually needs to be a precise timing to your stepping and striking so that your movement from stance to stance is part of your power generation. So your lower and upper body should have a co-ordination to them, though it may not be one that you are familiar with.

Striking in martial arts is different from boxing because in martial arts there are other factors you have to take into consideration that boxers don’t have to think about. For example, boxers can put a full body commitment into a punch that can put them in an imbalanced position because they don’t have to worry about their opponent grappling them and using their imbalance to get them down for some ground and pound. Another thing is punches aren’t your only or deadliest technique.

Also body positioning is different because in boxing you have a lot less vital zones for your opponent to attack. In boxing you can stand fully squared off because you don’t have to worry about getting your knee kicked out or kicked in the groin.

Another thing to bear in mind is that while sparring can be a lot like fighting there is some differences between them and self defense. In sparring there is some honor and sportsmanship so you have a chance to get your guard up and prepare yourself. In self defense you can be walking down the street or standing still when out of nowhere someone fires on you. The beginning or build up to a real fight can be unpredictable or even dishonorable. The motivation to sucker punch is it gives the initiative. If you have sharpened your reflexes through sparring and drilled self defense moves you could possibly surprise the hell out of a sucker puncher and turn the tables.

One last point is there are moves in forms that may look flowery or undefined and no one can give you a good explanation of what they are. A lot of those moves are what is known as Chin Na. Chin Na is a Chinese grappling art. Here is my favorite Chin Na teacher.

http://v.ku6.com/show/bPCy-rSZk6TW7Nnu.html[/quote]

Good points. Your second paragraph reminds me of some of what Marc Macyoung wrote regarding proper body movement. Maybe the real purpose (or best use) of kata is not to mimick fighting but to provide an opportunity to practice proper movement in terms of weight transfer and coordinating momentum. Maybe when you practice something prearranged you take your decision making process out of it and just work on efficiency, rhythm and proper coordination of power. Provided you were taught what to feel for by your teacher.

I’m not sure if Macyoung would apply his logic to kata but it makes the lifetime of repetition understandable if you are working on suble aspects of your movement.

19

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:

[quote]admbaum wrote:
Kata’s, I think, are like shadow boxing. Its all about developing muscle memory. Most people think they can throw a jab, but when the actually do it they are completely off and will probably never actually land one. Shadow boxing helps develop your muscle memory similar to kata’s. I trained a little karate at a McDojo many years ago and didnt gain much from it. [/quote]

Allow me to be more specific. In a Kempo kata, you step, you stop, then punch. You step again, slight pause, then punch. There seems to be a disconnect between what the lower body does and what the arms are doing. Blocking and striking are done with the arms, while the body is stable, but stationary. From what I’ve been able to see online, this is fairly typical with karate. This seems to lack the total body dynamic that boxing and MT have. And it only makes me doubt this system more when I see its practitioners never use it during sparring.

Since I’m basically an inexperienced maggot in the martial arts world I’m hoping to see a discussion from those of you who aren’t maggots. Are traditional striking arts that use kata just kickboxing in disguise with a lot of posturing added on to make it look exotic? [/quote]

Forms should have a flow to them. They should not have a start, stop, start, stop, mechanical quality to them. From what I have seen of Kempo in particular they really like to flow their techniques rapid fire.

There actually needs to be a precise timing to your stepping and striking so that your movement from stance to stance is part of your power generation. So your lower and upper body should have a co-ordination to them, though it may not be one that you are familiar with.

Striking in martial arts is different from boxing because in martial arts there are other factors you have to take into consideration that boxers don’t have to think about. For example, boxers can put a full body commitment into a punch that can put them in an imbalanced position because they don’t have to worry about their opponent grappling them and using their imbalance to get them down for some ground and pound. Another thing is punches aren’t your only or deadliest technique.
[/quote]

I would disagree that boxers are ever taught to commit to punches to the point of putting themselves in unbalanced positions. Balance and proper body positioning are actually heavily emphasized in boxing. But I would agree that the striking does differ.

In boxing people are generally taught the mindset of conserving energy and feeling out their opponent. For them this makes perfect sense, since boxing matches are several rounds long and the boxer knows that they need to save enough in the tank to be able to potentially last all of the rounds.

This is in stark contrast to real fighting, which are usually usually made up of a burst/flurry of energy and tend to end rather quickly.

This is true, although different boxing coaches teach slightly more or less squared body positioning. The leg kick thing is definitely not taken into consideration though.

Absolutely.

The only thing is that you can’t really learn effective grappling skills (chin na or otherwise) from a kata. You’ve got to train them on another person and actually feel the slight adjustments that must be made to get them right. I’d prefer things like flow drills or even just pure technical practice on a partner over katas for such skills. I guess that once you already had the skills you could practice stuff in the air, but I don’t think it’s really all that great a method.

Also, one of my training partners has trained with Yang Jwing-Ming in Chin Na and liked what he taught. This individual is also a black belt under Wally Jay in Small Circle Jujitsu and has some nasty locking skills.

20

[quote]farmermaggot wrote:
Good points. Your second paragraph reminds me of some of what Marc Macyoung wrote regarding proper body movement. Maybe the real purpose (or best use) of kata is not to mimick fighting but to provide an opportunity to practice proper movement in terms of weight transfer and coordinating momentum. Maybe when you practice something prearranged you take your decision making process out of it and just work on efficiency, rhythm and proper coordination of power. Provided you were taught what to feel for by your teacher.

I’m not sure if Macyoung would apply his logic to kata but it makes the lifetime of repetition understandable if you are working on suble aspects of your movement.
[/quote]

The real benefit of kata is the repetition of techniques with the goal/objective of performing the movements as perfectly as possible. This makes sense, as in order to reach a very high level of proficiency with any skill it must be practiced over and over with perfect execution as the goal each and every time.

That doesn’t mean that one has to practice katas in order to practice skills over and over perfectly though. You could just practice hitting the pads/mitts or bags with the goal of perfect execution each time and get the same benefits and then some (since actually hitting stuff teaches you how to do things like transfer your weight, be in the correct body positioning, follow through, recovery, etc… better than just doing skills in the air).