Thibs New Training Questions #4

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
481

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]boidae wrote:
CT,

If a trainee is not a competitive bodybuilder but does train for size and strength, focusing on big movements like deads, squats and lots of prowler work, do you feel they need direct calve and hamstring work?[/quote]

No calves work would be needed, and very little if any direct hamstrings work (the later depending on muscle dominance… someone with a very dominant lower back, might need to add some hamstrings work)[/quote]

Do you believe one can build decent calves without direct work?[/quote]

I probably did one set of direct calves work in my life and have decent calves. Alex has humongous calves and he rarely if ever does direct work for them.

482

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]boidae wrote:
CT,

If a trainee is not a competitive bodybuilder but does train for size and strength, focusing on big movements like deads, squats and lots of prowler work, do you feel they need direct calve and hamstring work?[/quote]

No calves work would be needed, and very little if any direct hamstrings work (the later depending on muscle dominance… someone with a very dominant lower back, might need to add some hamstrings work)[/quote]

Do you believe one can build decent calves without direct work?[/quote]

I probably did one set of direct calves work in my life and have decent calves. Alex has humongous calves and he rarely if ever does direct work for them.[/quote]

A lot of that = genetics

However, that being said, those with poor calves can always improve them

483

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]boidae wrote:
CT,

If a trainee is not a competitive bodybuilder but does train for size and strength, focusing on big movements like deads, squats and lots of prowler work, do you feel they need direct calve and hamstring work?[/quote]

No calves work would be needed, and very little if any direct hamstrings work (the later depending on muscle dominance… someone with a very dominant lower back, might need to add some hamstrings work)[/quote]

Do you believe one can build decent calves without direct work?[/quote]

I probably did one set of direct calves work in my life and have decent calves. Alex has humongous calves and he rarely if ever does direct work for them.[/quote]

So is it safe to say that your calve development came from powerful triple extension in the olympic lifts?

484

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]boidae wrote:
CT,

If a trainee is not a competitive bodybuilder but does train for size and strength, focusing on big movements like deads, squats and lots of prowler work, do you feel they need direct calve and hamstring work?[/quote]

No calves work would be needed, and very little if any direct hamstrings work (the later depending on muscle dominance… someone with a very dominant lower back, might need to add some hamstrings work)[/quote]

Do you believe one can build decent calves without direct work?[/quote]

I probably did one set of direct calves work in my life and have decent calves. Alex has humongous calves and he rarely if ever does direct work for them.[/quote]

So is it safe to say that your calve development came from powerful triple extension in the olympic lifts?[/quote]

It probably contributed, but I doubt that it’s the only reason. I played football for 8 years and had good calves back then.

485

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]boidae wrote:
CT,

If a trainee is not a competitive bodybuilder but does train for size and strength, focusing on big movements like deads, squats and lots of prowler work, do you feel they need direct calve and hamstring work?[/quote]

No calves work would be needed, and very little if any direct hamstrings work (the later depending on muscle dominance… someone with a very dominant lower back, might need to add some hamstrings work)[/quote]

Do you believe one can build decent calves without direct work?[/quote]

I probably did one set of direct calves work in my life and have decent calves. Alex has humongous calves and he rarely if ever does direct work for them.[/quote]

So is it safe to say that your calve development came from powerful triple extension in the olympic lifts?[/quote]

Heavy pulls are good for many things, including calves. Then again, I have good calf genetics, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

Although I have no direct experience with the Prowler, I’ve heard that Prowler pushes are great for calf development. Hill sprints are also good - I’ve done those. I’ve been thinking of walking uphill with weight as a Prowler substitute. Cycling and jumping rope also caused my calves to explode, but that involves steady-state cardio which many don’t like.

486

Hey CT,

I posted something similar in the bodybuilding forum but wanted to get your opinion since you mentioned doing olympic lifting for years in the past before you started training more for bodybuilding.

I was hoping to get your advice on how to incorporate bodybuilding training (lifting for strength/size) in on the days that I’m not olympic lifting.

I just started taking an olympic lifting class that I’ll be going to 2-3 days a week (tues and fri and/or sat). The coach has me doing hang cleans, hang snatch, slow deadlift where at the end I come up on my toes and do a shrug, push press, front squat and overhead squat.

Any advice you could give me on how to set up a split on the days im not olympic lifting or anything else would be greatly appreciated.

487

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]never_got_ripped wrote:
C T ,
Do you recommend high rep squats (20 or more per set) with low carb diet ?[/quote]

I rarely if ever do high rep squats… my lower body volume is done mostly with the sled[/quote]

CT, could you perhaps post a sample leg day using the Prowler? This sounds like an efficient way to get both leg volume and conditioning in at the same time and has caused me to seriously consider getting a Prowler. I would appreciate that.

ETA: Never mind - I found the answer here:

Push the damn sled without driving yourself into the ground.

488

Thanks for all the info Coach

do you believe taking cinnamon with every big meal can help with insulin control?

489

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
Hey CT,

I posted something similar in the bodybuilding forum but wanted to get your opinion since you mentioned doing olympic lifting for years in the past before you started training more for bodybuilding.

I was hoping to get your advice on how to incorporate bodybuilding training (lifting for strength/size) in on the days that I’m not olympic lifting.

I just started taking an olympic lifting class that I’ll be going to 2-3 days a week (tues and fri and/or sat). The coach has me doing hang cleans, hang snatch, slow deadlift where at the end I come up on my toes and do a shrug, push press, front squat and overhead squat.

Any advice you could give me on how to set up a split on the days im not olympic lifting or anything else would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]

There was an old article by CT called “High Tension Training” that outlined a program of using the Olympic lifts in connection with a hypertrophy plan. In fact, it was than “in connection with” - the Olympic lifts were used for hypertrophy. The plan had specific set/rep parameters for the Olympic lifts themselves which your coach may not necessarily like. It also had one variety day devoted mostly to BB type work. Although this article is old, CT mentioned that it actually reflects some of his current thinking, so much so that he reposted it on this forum. It’s buried somewhere under pages of posts so you’ll have to dig, but it’s worth finding.

Also, I don’t know whether your OL facility is no nonsense OL or has other stuff, but many OLers, myself included, will just throw in some type of exercise at the end of our main lifting session. I noticed your coach doesn’t have you doing any ab work, so hit your abs hard. I highly recommend getting an ab wheel and just doing some sets at home. Upper back work (pull ups, rows) can benefit OL somewhat - the Chinese lifters do these high-rep explosive rows. Bench press is okay, but be sure to stretch after as the bench can cause a loss in shoulder flexibility and make it hard to hold the bar properly in the snatch.

490

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
Hey CT,

I posted something similar in the bodybuilding forum but wanted to get your opinion since you mentioned doing olympic lifting for years in the past before you started training more for bodybuilding.

I was hoping to get your advice on how to incorporate bodybuilding training (lifting for strength/size) in on the days that I’m not olympic lifting.

I just started taking an olympic lifting class that I’ll be going to 2-3 days a week (tues and fri and/or sat). The coach has me doing hang cleans, hang snatch, slow deadlift where at the end I come up on my toes and do a shrug, push press, front squat and overhead squat.

Any advice you could give me on how to set up a split on the days im not olympic lifting or anything else would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]

There was an old article by CT called “High Tension Training” that outlined a program of using the Olympic lifts in connection with a hypertrophy plan. In fact, it was than “in connection with” - the Olympic lifts were used for hypertrophy. The plan had specific set/rep parameters for the Olympic lifts themselves which your coach may not necessarily like. It also had one variety day devoted mostly to BB type work. Although this article is old, CT mentioned that it actually reflects some of his current thinking, so much so that he reposted it on this forum. It’s buried somewhere under pages of posts so you’ll have to dig, but it’s worth finding.

Also, I don’t know whether your OL facility is no nonsense OL or has other stuff, but many OLers, myself included, will just throw in some type of exercise at the end of our main lifting session. I noticed your coach doesn’t have you doing any ab work, so hit your abs hard. I highly recommend getting an ab wheel and just doing some sets at home. Upper back work (pull ups, rows) can benefit OL somewhat - the Chinese lifters do these high-rep explosive rows. Bench press is okay, but be sure to stretch after as the bench can cause a loss in shoulder flexibility and make it hard to hold the bar properly in the snatch.[/quote]

the thread is called “nothing new under the sun”… i believe

491

[quote]llnyc00 wrote:
Thanks for all the info Coach

do you believe taking cinnamon with every big meal can help with insulin control? [/quote]

Cinnamon, fish oil, vinegar (apple cider vinegar especially) and fiber can all help slightly.

492

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
Hey CT,

I posted something similar in the bodybuilding forum but wanted to get your opinion since you mentioned doing olympic lifting for years in the past before you started training more for bodybuilding.

I was hoping to get your advice on how to incorporate bodybuilding training (lifting for strength/size) in on the days that I’m not olympic lifting.

I just started taking an olympic lifting class that I’ll be going to 2-3 days a week (tues and fri and/or sat). The coach has me doing hang cleans, hang snatch, slow deadlift where at the end I come up on my toes and do a shrug, push press, front squat and overhead squat.

Any advice you could give me on how to set up a split on the days im not olympic lifting or anything else would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]

There was an old article by CT called “High Tension Training” that outlined a program of using the Olympic lifts in connection with a hypertrophy plan. In fact, it was than “in connection with” - the Olympic lifts were used for hypertrophy. The plan had specific set/rep parameters for the Olympic lifts themselves which your coach may not necessarily like. It also had one variety day devoted mostly to BB type work. Although this article is old, CT mentioned that it actually reflects some of his current thinking, so much so that he reposted it on this forum. It’s buried somewhere under pages of posts so you’ll have to dig, but it’s worth finding.

Also, I don’t know whether your OL facility is no nonsense OL or has other stuff, but many OLers, myself included, will just throw in some type of exercise at the end of our main lifting session. I noticed your coach doesn’t have you doing any ab work, so hit your abs hard. I highly recommend getting an ab wheel and just doing some sets at home. Upper back work (pull ups, rows) can benefit OL somewhat - the Chinese lifters do these high-rep explosive rows. Bench press is okay, but be sure to stretch after as the bench can cause a loss in shoulder flexibility and make it hard to hold the bar properly in the snatch.[/quote]

the thread is called “nothing new under the sun”… i believe[/quote]

Thanks a lot guys. Yea I remember that thread. I actually saved the article on my computer cause it had such good feedback. I looked at it briefly and it definitely gave me some ideas.
I’ll have to read the whole thing to better understand how to incorporate some traditional bodybuilding exercises.

@Mike - How many days a week do you do the Oly lifting? Do you just pick 1 or 2 big main exercises to do after each Oly session and rotate them? Like maybe squat one day, deads another, bench another? I recently got an ab-wheel so I’ll def start using that.

493

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
@Mike - How many days a week do you do the Oly lifting? Do you just pick 1 or 2 big main exercises to do after each Oly session and rotate them? Like maybe squat one day, deads another, bench another? I recently got an ab-wheel so I’ll def start using that.[/quote]

I go to my OL facility twice a week where I have access to bumpers and good quality bars. Yes, the bars make a big difference. On those days I go as heavy as possible because I know I can just drop the bar if I miss. One day I focus on snatch, the other on C&J, followed by front or back squats. In my basement I have a squat rack, pull up bar, kettlebells, and regular weights (i.e., no bumper plates) and crappy bars that spin only if the weather is warm. At home I’ll do mostly power snatches followed by more squats. I don’t bench; any pressing is done overhead. If I have the energy I do pull ups. But usually it’s just one of the Olympic lifts plus squats. I’ll do this as often as I can. One week was 2 sessions at my OL place and 3 in my basement. That was a tough week, but doable. If I can squat 5x a week, you should easily be able to add in one day of just bodybuilding work.

494

Hey CT, Say you had 2 130lb twins who could bench 120lb, squat 200lb and deadlift 225lb. There is a 100% chance that if they got up to 200lb and could bench 315, squat 405 and deadlift 405-455 they would be much more muscular. But lets say

Person A: Gains about 0.5-1lb per week while consistently gaining strength and in 3 years or so hits the above numbers

Person B: Gains weight, mostly fat, without working out up to 200lb. Then begins working out and keeps his weight constant the entire time, while working up to those same numbers.

Assuming nearly identical training schemes, would there be a large difference in the two body compositions? I would imagine the first would get much better results, but at the same time there’s no way person B wouldn’t be way more muscular at 200lb with those lifts compared to what he was, especially if it was a “hypertrophy based” routine.

Obviously it’s all rhetorical, but it seems interesting. I myself am wondering what the difference would be if I had a goal strength in mind for a certain weight, but once I hit that weight if my strength wasn’t where I wanted it to be what would happen if I just maintained the weight until strength was where I wanted it.

Thanks!

495

Hello coach,

i was wondering what your current thoughts on sprinting are for hamstring/glute hypertrophy and fat loss? if i wanted to gradually add sprints into my routine, would this be a good outline of something i can do?

Weeks 1-2

one day of sprinting consisting of:

200m x 2
150m x 1
50m x 4-5

Weeks 3-4

One day of sprinting with:

200m x 2-3
150m x 2-3
50m x 5-6

5-6
same as weeks 3-4 except two days a week

weeks 7-8
same as weeks 5-6 except add a 400m run at beginning of each workout and take out one of the 150m runs

The 200m would be done at 85-90 %, the 150s at 90-95 percent, and the 50 m at max effort.

any help would be greatly appreciated. i have been doing a lactate session followed by some steady state cardio, but i would really like to substitute this and start sprinting again because i really enjoy it. Thanks alot in advance.

496

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CT, Say you had 2 130lb twins who could bench 120lb, squat 200lb and deadlift 225lb. There is a 100% chance that if they got up to 200lb and could bench 315, squat 405 and deadlift 405-455 they would be much more muscular. But lets say

Person A: Gains about 0.5-1lb per week while consistently gaining strength and in 3 years or so hits the above numbers

Person B: Gains weight, mostly fat, without working out up to 200lb. Then begins working out and keeps his weight constant the entire time, while working up to those same numbers.

Assuming nearly identical training schemes, would there be a large difference in the two body compositions? I would imagine the first would get much better results, but at the same time there’s no way person B wouldn’t be way more muscular at 200lb with those lifts compared to what he was, especially if it was a “hypertrophy based” routine.

Obviously it’s all rhetorical, but it seems interesting. I myself am wondering what the difference would be if I had a goal strength in mind for a certain weight, but once I hit that weight if my strength wasn’t where I wanted it to be what would happen if I just maintained the weight until strength was where I wanted it.

Thanks![/quote]

The problem is that there is no way of knowing, or even if it is possible. For example person B gets up to 200 without training… so it’s is AT LEAST 75% fat compared to muscle. Once this person starts training your question assume that he stays at 200, which means that he loses a lot of fat while gaining a lot of muscle… is it possible? Maybe, but not likely. Not to mention that the more body fat you carry, the less insulin sensitive you are. So a fatter person will be less efficient at building muscle and losing fat than a leaner one.

497

Dayne

sprinting up hills is solid for leg hypertrophy. I would do no more than 100 yards a sprint and more like 40-70 yards. It is very draining though so you probably would have to cut back on your leg work in the weight room if you do hills 2 or 3 times a week. Not sure if it is as effective as using a prowler but it can’t be too far behind.

I would love to hear what Coach Thibaudeau has to say about this

498

Thibs:

I put this as a post in your general section but should have put it in this question page: Question is below.

I’ve been racking my brain to come up with some effective eccentric-less exercises. I don’t have the means to afford a sled or access to anything similar.

The idea of lifting with one lowering with 2 arms/limbs seems to sort of defeat the purpose as although the load on the eccentric portion is halved, its still of significance. I train alone so manuals are not an option.

I have tried one arm cable bench presses, catching the weight with my non-working arm and rotating at the hips to return the weight. I have access to a machine bench with a leg push bar that does effectively allow for one arm presses, catching the weight with the legs after lockout, then returning via all leg strength as you can take your hand off the bar. But these are pretty cumbersome, and are limited to really just pressing muscles. I’ve thought of doing push-ups with the feet elevated, starting from the floor, then after lockout, lower knees to the floor reset from the low chest-on-ground position. Again, though its just sort of awkward and the question of an efficient working load arises.

I then thought what about static holds? One leg/arm or both could be used - a load sufficient enough could certainly be used. CT answered a question about boxing as eccentric-less options, saying that it was not good not only b/c of the eccentric rebound but b/c of load. Well with statics, a sufficient load could be used and no eccentric lowering or rebound would be involved.

I do believe that actual shortening action of the muscle alone as in a concentric contraction is much more effective for enhancing nutrient uptake (upregulation of GLUT4 in the muscle cell membrain for enhanced glucose being one) which would not be experienced to the same extend with static holds. But neither would the impairment of nutrient uptak and neurvous system draining effects that “negatives” induce. The concept of the perfect rep/max force and its impact on neural activation would also not be present with static holds as the muscle does not shorten and the force production is much lower. However, the point of eccentric-less work is recovery - not max fast-twitch fiber recruitment and force production - like the standard high-threshold concepts ramping workouts and max force ideas. Thus, one of the reasons why lighter weights and higher reps are done(8-20+) and encouraged with the prowler/sled work.

It seems like a decent alternative if one doesn’t have access to sleds, etc. to allow for some actual muscle work of enough load, volume sans eccentric contractions. I don’t believe the nutrient uptake, recovery enhancing effects - or muscle building effects for that matter - would be on par with pure concentric-only training. But I’m curious if is a worthwhile second tier solution.

Any ideas or comments would be appreciated

499

[quote]trayhawk wrote:
Thibs:

I put this as a post in your general section but should have put it in this question page: Question is below.

I’ve been racking my brain to come up with some effective eccentric-less exercises. I don’t have the means to afford a sled or access to anything similar.

Any ideas or comments would be appreciated[/quote]

Old tire
Drill
Big Eye Screw and nut/lock washer
Scrap of wood
Rope

$10-15

Here is the website I got the idea from:
http://patrickhdonnelly.blogspot.com/2008/07/diy-tire-sled.html

I actually made mine much simpler, just squeezed some plywood into the tire and lay my weights on top of it, yeah the slide around, but it isn’t a big deal.

Here is me using it:

500


And here is the inside of the tire, I used a small scrap of wood so the eye-screw didn’t pull out.