Thibs New Training Questions #4

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
501

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CT, Say you had 2 130lb twins who could bench 120lb, squat 200lb and deadlift 225lb. There is a 100% chance that if they got up to 200lb and could bench 315, squat 405 and deadlift 405-455 they would be much more muscular. But lets say

Person A: Gains about 0.5-1lb per week while consistently gaining strength and in 3 years or so hits the above numbers

Person B: Gains weight, mostly fat, without working out up to 200lb. Then begins working out and keeps his weight constant the entire time, while working up to those same numbers.

Assuming nearly identical training schemes, would there be a large difference in the two body compositions? I would imagine the first would get much better results, but at the same time there’s no way person B wouldn’t be way more muscular at 200lb with those lifts compared to what he was, especially if it was a “hypertrophy based” routine.

Obviously it’s all rhetorical, but it seems interesting. I myself am wondering what the difference would be if I had a goal strength in mind for a certain weight, but once I hit that weight if my strength wasn’t where I wanted it to be what would happen if I just maintained the weight until strength was where I wanted it.

Thanks![/quote]

The problem is that there is no way of knowing, or even if it is possible. For example person B gets up to 200 without training… so it’s is AT LEAST 75% fat compared to muscle. Once this person starts training your question assume that he stays at 200, which means that he loses a lot of fat while gaining a lot of muscle… is it possible? Maybe, but not likely. Not to mention that the more body fat you carry, the less insulin sensitive you are. So a fatter person will be less efficient at building muscle and losing fat than a leaner one. [/quote]

Yea I can definitely see your point that its nearly impossible to know. To make it a little more “real world”, lets say you had a client gain 30lb but when they hit their final weight they gained more fat they expected, and strength wasn’t quite up to par. Would it make sense to stay at that weight (regarding improved body composition) and increase strength by a significant amount or would that just result in more neural gains without much muscle gain so they would be better off just cutting and going for another mass phase later?

502

timmcbride00: Thanks for the ideas! Seriously, this really looks achievable even though I have the mechanicalical/fix-it capacity of paris hilton. The vidoes are much appreciated as I can see how to actually implement and perform the exercises.

This might actually be financially feasible even on my budget.

you’re a nasty looking bad bitch by the way oblivious to traffic as your christmas tree lumbars probably scared off bikers, dog walkers, and old ladies in motorized shopping carts I’m sure.

503

[quote]trayhawk wrote:
timmcbride00: Thanks for the ideas! Seriously, this really looks achievable even though I have the mechanicalical/fix-it capacity of paris hilton. The vidoes are much appreciated as I can see how to actually implement and perform the exercises.

This might actually be financially feasible even on my budget.

you’re a nasty looking bad bitch by the way oblivious to traffic as your christmas tree lumbars probably scared off bikers, dog walkers, and old ladies in motorized shopping carts I’m sure.
[/quote]

No problem Trayhawk, it is very achievable. I am not mechanically inclined either, but if you want something bad enough, you will find a way.

Video-wise, be sure to check out the Training Lab video’s as well. You get to see Daryl, Alex and Keven do eccentric-less training.

I found a tire along the road, so that was free, or you can go to a automobile repair shop, they have to pay to dispose of tires, so if you take one off their hands they shouldn’t mind. The other supplies are cheap.

Thanks for the compliment, that was filmed in September towards the end of my cut, I wasn’t always that lean.

504

CT,
In this article:

You mention this…

In relation to HTH methods, I believe you mentioned that you thought the amount of muscle that could be built was more than you originally thought. Can you give us any updated averages per week of possible muscle tissue gain under best circumstances with appropriate recovery and HTH training?

505

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

No problem Trayhawk, it is very achievable. I am not mechanically inclined either, but if you want something bad enough, you will find a way.
[/quote]

I feel your pain. For those who are mechanically inclined, I’ve seen plans for DIY Prowlers - everything from metal welded jobs to wooden ones. The wooden ones are interesting and pretty cool looking, although I imagine the bottom will wear over time. One other idea for a sled that takes zero mechanical skill is to get an old duffel bag (or buy one at military surplus as these things are not expensive), fill it with weights, tie a rope to it, and go. You’ll have an issue with wear and tear on concrete/asphalt but it should last longer if you pull on grass or dirt.

506

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
CT,
In this article:

You mention this…

In relation to HTH methods, I believe you mentioned that you thought the amount of muscle that could be built was more than you originally thought. Can you give us any updated averages per week of possible muscle tissue gain under best circumstances with appropriate recovery and HTH training?[/quote]

Over a a yearly average, I still believe that 26lbs of muscle in a year is about the most a non-beginner can build…

But keep in mind that this is DRY MUSCLE WEIGHT… and in that regard, 26lbs is HUGE. Understand that muscle is 70% water and roughly 25% protein tissue. So a gain of 26lbs in MUSCLE TISSUE could weight as much as 78lbs on the scale!!! In reality though it is closer to 50lbs.

So I totally stand by my original comment that you can build roughly 0.25 to 0.5lbs of dry muscle weight per week. Which can translate into scale weight gains of 0.5 - 1lbs per week… and up to 1.5lbs per week without fat gains… ON AVERAGE.

One thing that has changed in my belief is the way the body can add muscle.

What I did when I wrote the article was look at the most muscular body weight gained in a year that I have seen, then made a weekly average from it. This obviously assumes a linear muscle growth, which never occurs.

In reality muscle growth comes in spurs. You might gain a lot of muscle in a very short period of time then stabilize for a few months. So while the weekly average stands on a yearly basis; in a reality you might gain 3lbs per week for 3-4 weeks, than stabilize for 8 weeks, or something like that. That is always how I personally progressed… I’ll gain a lot of muscle fast for up to 6 week than stay at that level for a while.

507

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CT, Say you had 2 130lb twins who could bench 120lb, squat 200lb and deadlift 225lb. There is a 100% chance that if they got up to 200lb and could bench 315, squat 405 and deadlift 405-455 they would be much more muscular. But lets say

Person A: Gains about 0.5-1lb per week while consistently gaining strength and in 3 years or so hits the above numbers

Person B: Gains weight, mostly fat, without working out up to 200lb. Then begins working out and keeps his weight constant the entire time, while working up to those same numbers.

Assuming nearly identical training schemes, would there be a large difference in the two body compositions? I would imagine the first would get much better results, but at the same time there’s no way person B wouldn’t be way more muscular at 200lb with those lifts compared to what he was, especially if it was a “hypertrophy based” routine.

Obviously it’s all rhetorical, but it seems interesting. I myself am wondering what the difference would be if I had a goal strength in mind for a certain weight, but once I hit that weight if my strength wasn’t where I wanted it to be what would happen if I just maintained the weight until strength was where I wanted it.

Thanks![/quote]

The problem is that there is no way of knowing, or even if it is possible. For example person B gets up to 200 without training… so it’s is AT LEAST 75% fat compared to muscle. Once this person starts training your question assume that he stays at 200, which means that he loses a lot of fat while gaining a lot of muscle… is it possible? Maybe, but not likely. Not to mention that the more body fat you carry, the less insulin sensitive you are. So a fatter person will be less efficient at building muscle and losing fat than a leaner one. [/quote]

Yea I can definitely see your point that its nearly impossible to know. To make it a little more “real world”, lets say you had a client gain 30lb but when they hit their final weight they gained more fat they expected, and strength wasn’t quite up to par. Would it make sense to stay at that weight (regarding improved body composition) and increase strength by a significant amount or would that just result in more neural gains without much muscle gain so they would be better off just cutting and going for another mass phase later?[/quote]

You assume that neural gains are limitless and that the individual, who probably has a strong training experience, can make a lot of them easily while dropping fat. This is rarely the case.

Honestly I NEVER play with such theoretical hypothesis as they are never truly applicable. To me, honestly is a waste of time. I spend enough time solving real training issues to focus on false ones!

508

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Over a a yearly average, I still believe that 26lbs of muscle in a year is about the most a non-beginner can build…

But keep in mind that this is DRY MUSCLE WEIGHT… and in that regard, 26lbs is HUGE. Understand that muscle is 70% water and roughly 25% protein tissue. So a gain of 26lbs in MUSCLE TISSUE could weight as much as 78lbs on the scale!!! In reality though it is closer to 50lbs.

So I totally stand by my original comment that you can build roughly 0.25 to 0.5lbs of dry muscle weight per week. Which can translate into scale weight gains of 0.5 - 1lbs per week… and up to 1.5lbs per week without fat gains… ON AVERAGE.

One thing that has changed in my belief is the way the body can add muscle.

What I did when I wrote the article was look at the most muscular body weight gained in a year that I have seen, then made a weekly average from it. This obviously assumes a linear muscle growth, which never occurs.

In reality muscle growth comes in spurs. You might gain a lot of muscle in a very short period of time then stabilize for a few months. So while the weekly average stands on a yearly basis; in a reality you might gain 3lbs per week for 3-4 weeks, than stabilize for 8 weeks, or something like that. That is always how I personally progressed… I’ll gain a lot of muscle fast for up to 6 week than stay at that level for a while.
[/quote]

Just want to make sure I get it.

Assuming these ratios:
40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue (from article)
2.7g of water per 1.0g of glycogen (from internet)

Then for every pound of dry muscle tissue, you would likely gain on average 0.4 lb glycogen and 1.08 lb of water (0.4 x 2.7), thus 1 pound of dry tissue carries with it 1.5 extra pounds of glycogen and water, equaling 2.5 lbs. So on the max end of things, 2 pounds of tissue in one month would be 5 lbs of scale weight on average.

However, given what you stated that muscle growth comes in spurts, would it be more ideal for someone aiming to gain mass (meaning me!) to:

  1. Aim for an average gain of 1 lb per week
  2. Increase calories (quality of course, not junk) to push average gain per week up to 3 lb’s

In light of what you said, option 1 seems suboptimal, but I admit that is what I am doing right now to try and maintain some level of leanness. However, I do realize that sometimes if you want drastic results you have to push the envelope and do drastic things.

If you go with option 2, would you cut calories back after 3-4 weeks to stabilize weight?

509

MikeTheBear: After Timmcbride00 referred me to pics/videos of his and how easy and cheat it was I, I decided to build one. Went ahead and found a tire, bought 15 feet of rope, eye ring/nuts, etc. and will see how well I can construct this thing.

Timmcbride00: You might be familiar with Layne Norton’s off-season approach to gaining and it might be something you could incorporate. I believe he typically ingests of surplus of calories, “bulking” if you will, for 4-6 weeks, then follows that with 2-3 weeks of below maintenance intake to strip off some of the fat he gained through the higher calorie phase. He repeats this throughout his off-season and he is one of the best natural bodybuilders competing today.

I beleive many of the benefits of the post-contest or post-dieting muscle mass increases tend to be a greater proportion of muscle-to-fat for the first few weeks after which this normalizes. Sort of akin to the old ABCDE diet back in muscle media long ago but not that extreme. Hormones and favorable shifting of calories towards muscle and away from adipose seems to be the reason for these results. I’ve found it to be the case after my own contests and have succesfully used this dieting approach in my off-seasons. I absolutely gain less fat than during periods where I’ve maintained a hypercaloric intake for months at a time.

510

CT, What would you recommend in terms of nutrition for a sports training(such as soccer)? Pre or Post Training?

What kind of recommendation did you make to your hockey players in the past?

511

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bud moody wrote:
christian, thanks a lot for your detailed answer to my previous question. If i may ask one more…
at the moment due to training alone mostly and a shoulder injury, my pressing is only with dumbbells. my question is that with the increased difficulty of the first rep (from the bottom of the movement after kicking the DBs up) and the fact that at the moment (made worse because of recovering from the injury) I do not press anything heavier than 20 or 22kg dumbbells, ramping in sets of 3/4 as i like to does not seem to work and i have been using 6-10 reps again, starting with 12kg, then 14, then 16 etc… in order to increase volume should i be doing 2 sets on one weight occasionally?[/quote]

I do not recommend ramping with anything over 6 reps… doesn’t work well. I’d do 1 or 2 lighter sets then do all your work sets with the same weight.[/quote]

CT, what about some back excerises or pulling excerises like pullups, various rows or rack lifts? I think I remember u mentioning that these excerises are better if done in the 6-8 rep ranges? Do u still recommend ramping them up?

512

Hi Thibs.

When the goal is strength (limit strength and power - powerlifting and weightlifting), what do you think is the best way to bring up the upper back for someone who is struggeling a bit with using the back muscles in rowing movements (chin/pull-ups especially)?

I’ve recently started doing 12-reps sets of head-supprted rowing (see video below), and some 12-rep sets of face pulls. The high-reps are new for me.

513

[quote]fredarn wrote:
Hi Thibs.

When the goal is strength (limit strength and power - powerlifting and weightlifting), what do you think is the best way to bring up the upper back for someone who is struggeling a bit with using the back muscles in rowing movements (chin/pull-ups especially)?

I’ve recently started doing 12-reps sets of head-supprted rowing (see video below), and some 12-rep sets of face pulls. The high-reps are new for me.

Flare elbows slightly and have a harder contraction at the top, good stretch at the bottom. Helps me get alot more out of that exercise. Also, supporting yourself against the bench at the sternum makes it alot easier to pull forcefully I find.

514

[quote]jhng wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bud moody wrote:
christian, thanks a lot for your detailed answer to my previous question. If i may ask one more…
at the moment due to training alone mostly and a shoulder injury, my pressing is only with dumbbells. my question is that with the increased difficulty of the first rep (from the bottom of the movement after kicking the DBs up) and the fact that at the moment (made worse because of recovering from the injury) I do not press anything heavier than 20 or 22kg dumbbells, ramping in sets of 3/4 as i like to does not seem to work and i have been using 6-10 reps again, starting with 12kg, then 14, then 16 etc… in order to increase volume should i be doing 2 sets on one weight occasionally?[/quote]

I do not recommend ramping with anything over 6 reps… doesn’t work well. I’d do 1 or 2 lighter sets then do all your work sets with the same weight.[/quote]

CT, what about some back excerises or pulling excerises like pullups, various rows or rack lifts? I think I remember u mentioning that these excerises are better if done in the 6-8 rep ranges? Do u still recommend ramping them up?

[/quote]

No… 1-2 lighter sets then do all the work sets with the same weight.

515

[quote]trayhawk wrote:
MikeTheBear: After Timmcbride00 referred me to pics/videos of his and how easy and cheat it was I, I decided to build one. Went ahead and found a tire, bought 15 feet of rope, eye ring/nuts, etc. and will see how well I can construct this thing.
[/quote]

Wow, you didn’t waste anytime!

[quote]trayhawk wrote:
Timmcbride00: You might be familiar with Layne Norton’s off-season approach to gaining and it might be something you could incorporate. I believe he typically ingests of surplus of calories, “bulking” if you will, for 4-6 weeks, then follows that with 2-3 weeks of below maintenance intake to strip off some of the fat he gained through the higher calorie phase. He repeats this throughout his off-season and he is one of the best natural bodybuilders competing today.
[/quote]

I am indeed familiar with it, in fact I asked a question about it in the MAG-10 Pulse Fast live spill. Basically, the MAG-10 Pulse Fast can have the same benefits of the bulk/cut cycle.

516

Thibs, what program could I do to increase my strength … Currently weigh:155lbs Bench max:190 Squat and Deadlift Max:300ish each …and gaining weight is also a must…

517

[quote]projectkam2012 wrote:
Thibs, what program could I do to increase my strength … Currently weigh:155lbs Bench max:190 Squat and Deadlift Max:300ish each …and gaining weight is also a must…[/quote]

that one where you lift weights and eat food should do the trick

518

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]jhng wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bud moody wrote:
christian, thanks a lot for your detailed answer to my previous question. If i may ask one more…
at the moment due to training alone mostly and a shoulder injury, my pressing is only with dumbbells. my question is that with the increased difficulty of the first rep (from the bottom of the movement after kicking the DBs up) and the fact that at the moment (made worse because of recovering from the injury) I do not press anything heavier than 20 or 22kg dumbbells, ramping in sets of 3/4 as i like to does not seem to work and i have been using 6-10 reps again, starting with 12kg, then 14, then 16 etc… in order to increase volume should i be doing 2 sets on one weight occasionally?[/quote]

I do not recommend ramping with anything over 6 reps… doesn’t work well. I’d do 1 or 2 lighter sets then do all your work sets with the same weight.[/quote]

CT, what about some back excerises or pulling excerises like pullups, various rows or rack lifts? I think I remember u mentioning that these excerises are better if done in the 6-8 rep ranges? Do u still recommend ramping them up?

[/quote]

No… 1-2 lighter sets then do all the work sets with the same weight.[/quote]

lol, this actually came just in time, I have been ramping weighted chin up in reps of 3 for some time now, managed to get the weight up to 35kg but kinda hit a pleatau (more weights and form will break down.

defintely will go back to straight sets the next workout.

519

Hey Thibs,

For those who dont always do shoulders before chest, is there any “light” stuff one can do that you would recommend to warm up the joint?

would just like the bar for 25 reps do the trick?

thanks

520

question for mr. Thibaudeau: if you hypothetically had the time/inclination to train 4 times per day for 30-45 minutes (i think i read something you wrote in an older thread where you had said that you’d done this occasionally) how would you set it up? would you perform 4 lifting sessions? 2 lifting sessions and 2 cardio sessions? i should probably mention that i’m just as interested in remaining lean as i am in gaining some quality size.

i’ve been doing 2 lifting sessions and 2 cardio sessions, 5 days per week, with the other two days consisting of 1 lifting session and 1 cardio session back to back. i guess i’m wondering if i can achieve the same or better results by adding more lifting sessions in place of the cardio sessions.

fyi, i perform total body workouts and follow a slightly tweaked anabolic diet.

thanks in advance for any input.

joe