[quote]Pat_Butcher wrote:
Whats the shortest time between workout and eccentric-less training that you would leave and it still be optimal? [/quote]
not CT, but im pretty sure that in the past he advocated something like 4-6 hours between workouts was the optimal choice. i think its somewhere in one of the livespills. hope that helps some.
[quote]dayne_lathrop wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]BiP wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
On my OWN upper body performance days I normally have a total of anywhere between 20 and 40 sets of heavy pressing (I once went up to 70 sets, no kidding!);[/quote]
What do your sets look like when you end up doing that many of them? Do you do multiple sets at given weight, ramp up to the top weight for the day, back of a bit and then do sets below that number, or maybe microramp everything? Do you usually know at the beginning of the workout that it’s going to be a good one and adjust it from the start, or do you tend to realize when you get close to what you were expecting to get done and still feel like you have a lot left in you?
B.[/quote]
I do it several ways… I’ll give you a real life example of a very high volume session I did while in Colorado…
MILITARY PRESS
135 x 3
155 x 3
165 x 3
175 x 3
185 x 3
195 x 3
205 x 3
215 x 3
INCLINE PRESS
215 x 3
235 x 3
255 x 3
265 x 3
275 x 3
285 x 3
295 x3
305 x 3
315 x 3
BENCH PRESS
315 x 3
325 x 3
335 x 3
345 x 3
355 x 3
365 x 3
375 x 3
385 x 3
395 x 3
MILITARY PRESS
175 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
BENCH PRESS
330 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
For reference, at this point my best overhead press (strict military press, no leg drive) was 235 and my best bench press was 425… oddly enough both ended up being ramped up to 92% without having any preconceived target. And i used 70-75% for the timed sets, but didn’t calculate anything… I knew that this weight would feel very strong for all the sets.
HAMMER STRENGTH CHEST PRESS
3 plates + 25 per side x 5
3 plates + 35 per side x 5
4 plates per side x 5
4 plates + 15 per side x 5
4 plates + 25 per side x 3
That was roughly 50 sets of pressing 35 of which I would consider heavy for me[/quote]
am i correct in assuming that you did this workout in 75-80 minutes?[/quote]
Hey, I’m just a mere mortal and the other day WO partner and I did 30 sets of pressing most above 80% 1RM sets of 2 and 3 reps plus rear delt and external rotator work in 75 mins, probably could have gone much faster than we did. Very plausible for Thibs to do the above WO in 80 mins.
[quote]Mutsanah wrote:
[quote]dayne_lathrop wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]BiP wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
On my OWN upper body performance days I normally have a total of anywhere between 20 and 40 sets of heavy pressing (I once went up to 70 sets, no kidding!);[/quote]
What do your sets look like when you end up doing that many of them? Do you do multiple sets at given weight, ramp up to the top weight for the day, back of a bit and then do sets below that number, or maybe microramp everything? Do you usually know at the beginning of the workout that it’s going to be a good one and adjust it from the start, or do you tend to realize when you get close to what you were expecting to get done and still feel like you have a lot left in you?
B.[/quote]
I do it several ways… I’ll give you a real life example of a very high volume session I did while in Colorado…
MILITARY PRESS
135 x 3
155 x 3
165 x 3
175 x 3
185 x 3
195 x 3
205 x 3
215 x 3
INCLINE PRESS
215 x 3
235 x 3
255 x 3
265 x 3
275 x 3
285 x 3
295 x3
305 x 3
315 x 3
BENCH PRESS
315 x 3
325 x 3
335 x 3
345 x 3
355 x 3
365 x 3
375 x 3
385 x 3
395 x 3
MILITARY PRESS
175 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
BENCH PRESS
330 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
For reference, at this point my best overhead press (strict military press, no leg drive) was 235 and my best bench press was 425… oddly enough both ended up being ramped up to 92% without having any preconceived target. And i used 70-75% for the timed sets, but didn’t calculate anything… I knew that this weight would feel very strong for all the sets.
HAMMER STRENGTH CHEST PRESS
3 plates + 25 per side x 5
3 plates + 35 per side x 5
4 plates per side x 5
4 plates + 15 per side x 5
4 plates + 25 per side x 3
That was roughly 50 sets of pressing 35 of which I would consider heavy for me[/quote]
am i correct in assuming that you did this workout in 75-80 minutes?[/quote]
Hey, I’m just a mere mortal and the other day WO partner and I did 30 sets of pressing most above 80% 1RM sets of 2 and 3 reps plus rear delt and external rotator work in 75 mins, probably could have gone much faster than we did. Very plausible for Thibs to do the above WO in 80 mins.
[/quote]
sounds about right, thanks for your input. usually whenever i do my pressing workouts with a max rep circuit at the end and 4 heavy movements (usually around 7-8 sets of each) it takes me around 75 minutes.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Man, you think your schedule is rough? You should see mine! Or better yet, see my training partner’s… he has a construction company. Wakes up at 4am, starts his day at 5:30 and work until 5:00pm. Then he come train then go gome… oh yeah, he also has a daughter and a brother who has been in the hospital for more than 2 months and he visits him daily. He also has two hockey practices per week and 1-2 games on the weekend. And he can do the same workouts that I do.
As I mentioned, the lats/biceps workout I posted was done in less than 90 minutes. But we rarely speak more than 1 word during the whole workout. A lot of people waste way too much time in the gym.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s rough. I just say that it’s the roughest schedule I’ve ever been on. It’s very hard to get to have quality sleep, good nutrition and low stress-level (and it’s not allowing me to hove more then 4 workout a week, 1-2 h each.). But if I think again, I wouldn’t like it to be any easier on me than it’s on others. I guess thats my personallity.
I always seek to improve everything, starting the things that I can barely handle and finishing with every day stuff; that’s how I got into weight training: My dad bought me 6 pound dbs and he tought me how to workout and I think I quited after 2 days, but after a couple of weeks I realised that my physical performance is very low and I got so pissed that I got more and more into weight training, then I got some more weights, a bench and barbells, a cable machine, etc.
Right now I would never quit training because it tought me so much that I couldn’t imagine the life I have today possible without it. That being said I would like to thank ALL the T-Nation, readers and members for teaching me so much!!!
Still I get guys saying to me that I should quit it and thy would do something else in my place, even guys showing off in front of me sayng stuff like: “I bet you can’t really bench 80 kilos like you say with those puny arms”. I always tell them that I’m ready to do a demo at any time and that I want to comper my arms with theirs.
You know what they say to me: "Well maybe you have bigger arms than mine and you may be a little stronger,but… " (and the they stop talking). After thy go away I burs into laughting realising how much I’ve inproved and how much guts I came to have :).
This way I want to thank coach Thibaudeau for his great books, theaories, IBB and every thing.
[P.S.: Please don’t miss-interpret my messege. I’m not saying that I’m a top level athleat. I don’t even consider myself an athleat, just stubborn.]
[quote]dayne_lathrop wrote:
[quote]Pat_Butcher wrote:
Whats the shortest time between workout and eccentric-less training that you would leave and it still be optimal? [/quote]
not CT, but im pretty sure that in the past he advocated something like 4-6 hours between workouts was the optimal choice. i think its somewhere in one of the livespills. hope that helps some.[/quote]
Correct, but that rule applies for 2 regular workouts. Eccentric-less sessions can be performed much closer to the first workout.
MILITARY PRESS
175 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
BENCH PRESS
330 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
Would it be fair to say that the above is a more effective way of getting in more volume than a max-rep set?
I have followed a similar method but peforming 5 sets of 5 reps with around 70% of that days max on two of my movements. I have been using low reps for so long for my pushing that I feel once I go above 8 my rep quality just drops off and I am better doing it this way.
[quote]toomuchcep wrote:
MILITARY PRESS
175 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
BENCH PRESS
330 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
Would it be fair to say that the above is a more effective way of getting in more volume than a max-rep set?
I have followed a similar method but peforming 5 sets of 5 reps with around 70% of that days max on two of my movements. I have been using low reps for so long for my pushing that I feel once I go above 8 my rep quality just drops off and I am better doing it this way.[/quote]
Yes, It’s my preferred way to increase volume for the pressing muscles… it better fits their performance role.
Hi CT
Kind of a boring question, so please disregard, if you fall asleep 
Would you ever use this method for a lower body movement, such as a basic back squat?
You’ve mentioned you favor the sled for adding extra lower body work, but was curious if you could see this as an effective approach for squats. Would this be an optimal way for someone to “get better” at doing squats, or would fatigue (both muscular and neural) be too much of a limiting factor at this point in the workout (after all the regular leg work)?
Thanks CT. All your info is MUCH appreciated.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]toomuchcep wrote:
MILITARY PRESS
175 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
BENCH PRESS
330 x 2 perform 1 set every minute for 10 minutes (9-10 sets)
Would it be fair to say that the above is a more effective way of getting in more volume than a max-rep set?
I have followed a similar method but peforming 5 sets of 5 reps with around 70% of that days max on two of my movements. I have been using low reps for so long for my pushing that I feel once I go above 8 my rep quality just drops off and I am better doing it this way.[/quote]
Yes, It’s my preferred way to increase volume for the pressing muscles… it better fits their performance role.[/quote]
[quote]synergy93 wrote:
Hi CT
Kind of a boring question, so please disregard, if you fall asleep
Would you ever use this method for a lower body movement, such as a basic back squat?
You’ve mentioned you favor the sled for adding extra lower body work, but was curious if you could see this as an effective approach for squats. Would this be an optimal way for someone to “get better” at doing squats, or would fatigue (both muscular and neural) be too much of a limiting factor at this point in the workout (after all the regular leg work)?
Thanks CT. All your info is MUCH appreciated.
[/quote]
I would. I say I because it is actually a method that I like very much and works well for myself. As an olympic lifter I’ve been basically living off of low reps back squats for most of my life.
I also find that the legs respond to most of the stuff that also works for upper body pressing exercises.
The 1 set per minute approach works well HOWEVER it has also a large cost on the nervous system. FOR ME it isn’t so bad because I squatted so much in my life (for 6 years I squatted 5-6 days a week, often twice a day and prior to that it was 3x per week for 5 years) that it is actually not a stressful movement for the nervous system anymore. BUT not everyone might be able to handle it.
My guess is that from your background you are likely to be able to handle it.
CT, I currently just started another round of the I, Bodybuilder program, starting with the shoulder spec. I wanted to incorperate the eccentric-less training on the three spec days to help with recovery. I can only do the eccentric-less training at home so I could only use the bands, and blast straps.
I know you set your neural charge workouts up in a circuit, is that how you would set up the eccentric-less exercises? And the type of exercises I would use for recovery would be shoulder, tricep, and some chest?
Thanks for the speedy response! Yes, I can see how if the individual can handle it, it could work quite well.
Thanks again.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]synergy93 wrote:
Hi CT
Kind of a boring question, so please disregard, if you fall asleep
Would you ever use this method for a lower body movement, such as a basic back squat?
You’ve mentioned you favor the sled for adding extra lower body work, but was curious if you could see this as an effective approach for squats. Would this be an optimal way for someone to “get better” at doing squats, or would fatigue (both muscular and neural) be too much of a limiting factor at this point in the workout (after all the regular leg work)?
Thanks CT. All your info is MUCH appreciated.
[/quote]
I would. I say I because it is actually a method that I like very much and works well for myself. As an olympic lifter I’ve been basically living off of low reps back squats for most of my life.
I also find that the legs respond to most of the stuff that also works for upper body pressing exercises.
The 1 set per minute approach works well HOWEVER it has also a large cost on the nervous system. FOR ME it isn’t so bad because I squatted so much in my life (for 6 years I squatted 5-6 days a week, often twice a day and prior to that it was 3x per week for 5 years) that it is actually not a stressful movement for the nervous system anymore. BUT not everyone might be able to handle it.
My guess is that from your background you are likely to be able to handle it.
[/quote]
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]RawMinded wrote:
hey thib,
How do you feel about 1 arm BB exercises. I’ve been doing 1 arm clean and snatches and in my training experience the clean is one of the best forearm exercises that i’ve done. I only do 3 reps and ramp up.
Would you rather use this technique as an activation exercise or would you make it part of a staple strength routine? thanks in advance.[/quote]
I mentioned in the past that I would often use these exercises. When I competed in olympic lifting I would often start my workouts with 1-arm BB snatches. I once worked up to 175lbs.
I seldom use them anymore, and don’t use them with any clients because of the learning curve required. In that case I prefer 1-arm DB variations of the olympic lifts. But if you are comfortable with the BB variations, by all means use them.[/quote]
Out of curiosity, is your 1-arm DB snatch more than half of your BB snatch? I would think so since your still using both legs, all of your lower back, etc… but just wondering what your experience has been. I doubt I could snatch double what I worked up to with 1-arm DB snatch.
Coach for a day one back spec
Am
Snatches Ramping the weight
starting with 65%
Then moving to Power Cleans
same thing about 10 sets each.
Pm
Then chin ups
adding 5kg every set untill the movement slows down
about 10 sets 3-5 rep range
Max Rep Circ
Inverted row with about 15 percent of BW
BB Curls
DB Shrugs
CT, would it be doable to do upper body performance work in the AM and then follow that in the PM with lats and bicep work? So, something like
AM Overhead Press 3-5 reps
Staggered shrug work
Incline press start where overhead press ended
adding a flat variation if i feel i can, then in the PM just doing work for the lats and biceps, i’m wondering if that could be pulled off? or would you still just rather keep it strictly performance and if you do any extra it be with sled or a max rep circuit in the PM?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]RawMinded wrote:
hey thib,
How do you feel about 1 arm BB exercises. I’ve been doing 1 arm clean and snatches and in my training experience the clean is one of the best forearm exercises that i’ve done. I only do 3 reps and ramp up.
Would you rather use this technique as an activation exercise or would you make it part of a staple strength routine? thanks in advance.[/quote]
I mentioned in the past that I would often use these exercises. When I competed in olympic lifting I would often start my workouts with 1-arm BB snatches. I once worked up to 175lbs.
I seldom use them anymore, and don’t use them with any clients because of the learning curve required. In that case I prefer 1-arm DB variations of the olympic lifts. But if you are comfortable with the BB variations, by all means use them.[/quote]
Out of curiosity, is your 1-arm DB snatch more than half of your BB snatch? I would think so since your still using both legs, all of your lower back, etc… but just wondering what your experience has been. I doubt I could snatch double what I worked up to with 1-arm DB snatch. [/quote]
The heaviest 1-arm barbell snatch I ever did was 175lbs… and my best POWER snatch at that time was 120kg or 264lbs. So yes, it’s more than 50% since, as you mentioned, even though you are holding the bar with one hand, you can use both legs and both sides of your lower back.
[quote]Eazy wrote:
CT, would it be doable to do upper body performance work in the AM and then follow that in the PM with lats and bicep work? So, something like
AM Overhead Press 3-5 reps
Staggered shrug work
Incline press start where overhead press ended
adding a flat variation if i feel i can, then in the PM just doing work for the lats and biceps, i’m wondering if that could be pulled off? or would you still just rather keep it strictly performance and if you do any extra it be with sled or a max rep circuit in the PM?[/quote]
I’ve actually done that quite often myself, yes it works. But proper nutrition, rest and supplementation is important or you wont last very long.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]dayne_lathrop wrote:
[quote]Pat_Butcher wrote:
Whats the shortest time between workout and eccentric-less training that you would leave and it still be optimal? [/quote]
not CT, but im pretty sure that in the past he advocated something like 4-6 hours between workouts was the optimal choice. i think its somewhere in one of the livespills. hope that helps some.[/quote]
Correct, but that rule applies for 2 regular workouts. Eccentric-less sessions can be performed much closer to the first workout.[/quote]
ah ok, thank you for clearing that up.
CT, do you currently use any of the band or any activation work (i.e. broad or vertical jumps) in your own training?
Thib in the past you said something about the regular deadlift being very draining on the CNS (and I have found that out over the years). With that being said do you think it is ok deadlifting more than once per week using the ramping method? and are other variations of the deadlift (trap bar, romanian, snatch grip, deficit pulls) less draining on the CNS and more able to be done multiple times per week.
I have a high work capacity and train 6 days per week using a push/lats-biceps/legs split
Thibs, i thought i remembered you saying something recently about how you now advocate training a bodypart 3 times in a row at the beginning of the week for a specialization on that part. what would you think of doing a pulse-fast on a sunday, for instance, then training the part you are specializing on in the following 3 days, taking advantage of the rebound effect to accelerate growth for that part? maybe i didnt explain it well enough so here is an example of a chest specialization that could be interesting:
Sunday: pulse-fast day//back day
Monday: chest day
Tuesday: chest day
Wed: chest day
Thurs: legs
Fri:off
Sat: delts/traps
please let me know what you think. thanks.