Thibs New Training Questions #4

Training
181

Thib, I gotta hand it to you, using the ab straps for lat work is genius. Do you ever use them on the pull-up bar as opposed to pull-down machine? I’ve done it a couple times now as a finisher. I imagine it’s as close as I can get to the pull-over machine without having access to one.

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
Wow…so that’s up to 30 sets and 200 total reps for lats, followed by 36 sets/250 total reps for biceps? :open_mouth:

Ronnie Coleman called and I’m paraphrasing here: “Dayum that there’s a lotta sets”

Is there some kind of ramping or auto-regulation involved here, or are these really straight sets?[/quote]

I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets.

182

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:
Would the following work better:
Roughly 10 sets spread between pronated chins/supinated chins/pronated pulldowns/supinated pulldowns, 6-12 reps, followed by 2 lats isolation exercises (straight arm pulldown, rope lats row - sadly there’s no pullover machine in my gym) for roughly 3-5 sets each (ramped, but not a lot). Then some biceps work followed by one max reps circuit for lats (and one for biceps).

B.[/quote]

Yes, much better[/quote]

I finished the workout about two hours ago. I think this was the first time I used that much volume in months! It got quite hard by the end (around the lats isolation stuff), but considering that I was using fewer carbs (30g dextrose as opposed to my regular 2 scoops of SWF) and given the volume difference I’m quite happy. I could definitely feel my lats working through most of the stuff, maybe except for the first couple of pull-up sets (always had a problem with that). I should have upped the volume for the biceps, though (did 2 exercises with 3 sets each, plus a maxreps circuit of 3 exercises).
Thanks coach!

B.

183

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
Wow…so that’s up to 30 sets and 200 total reps for lats, followed by 36 sets/250 total reps for biceps? :open_mouth:

Ronnie Coleman called and I’m paraphrasing here: “Dayum that there’s a lotta sets”

Is there some kind of ramping or auto-regulation involved here, or are these really straight sets?[/quote]

I agree it is a LOT of volume. And I certainly do not recommend it to everybody. I have HUGE work capacity from my background as an olympic lifter.

There is ALWAYS a form of autoregulation in my own training. In fact I NEVER FOLLOW A TRAINING PROGRAM. I will always decide from set to set what I will do next depending on how I feel. I have a very astute connection with my body and know not only if I can do more, but what type of contraction my body needs.

So with this workout I KNEW that I would do the first exercise but decided after each set if I should do another one. And when I felt that this exercise gave all that it could give me on that day I picked another one and again went from set to set.

184

[quote]wfifer wrote:
I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets. [/quote]

And that’s fine. Lats and biceps are about doing a lot of work without draining yourself. Use the way that best accomplishes that FOR YOU.

To me 36 sets is nothing… when I training for olympic lifting our coach often had us do 15-20 sets of snatches, 15-20 sets of cleans, 10-15 sets of squats and 5-10 sets of pulls IN ONE WORKOUT and we would often train twice a day… plus I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to get to the gym and come back home! Work capacity is something that can be built up over time. Most bodybuilders and recreational lifters have the work capacity of prepubescent children compared to elite athletes this is why 30 sets seems like a whole lot for them.

185

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]wfifer wrote:
I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets. [/quote]

And that’s fine. Lats and biceps are about doing a lot of work without draining yourself. Use the way that best accomplishes that FOR YOU.

To me 36 sets is nothing… when I training for olympic lifting our coach often had us do 15-20 sets of snatches, 15-20 sets of cleans, 10-15 sets of squats and 5-10 sets of pulls IN ONE WORKOUT and we would often train twice a day… plus I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to get to the gym and come back home! Work capacity is something that can be built up over time. Most bodybuilders and recreational lifters have the work capacity of prepubescent children compared to elite athletes this is why 30 sets seems like a whole lot for them.[/quote]

I was worried a bit about the volume about 2/3 through the workout (which is why I kept the biceps volume low this time), but within 15 minutes of finishing the last set I felt energetic and now (over 2 hours later) I feel great. Sure, I doubt I could do a single pull-up right now, but overall I think I was far from overdoing it.

B.

186

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]wfifer wrote:
I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets. [/quote]

And that’s fine. Lats and biceps are about doing a lot of work without draining yourself. Use the way that best accomplishes that FOR YOU.

To me 36 sets is nothing… when I training for olympic lifting our coach often had us do 15-20 sets of snatches, 15-20 sets of cleans, 10-15 sets of squats and 5-10 sets of pulls IN ONE WORKOUT and we would often train twice a day… plus I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to get to the gym and come back home! Work capacity is something that can be built up over time. Most bodybuilders and recreational lifters have the work capacity of prepubescent children compared to elite athletes this is why 30 sets seems like a whole lot for them.[/quote]

I was worried a bit about the volume about 2/3 through the workout (which is why I kept the biceps volume low this time), but within 15 minutes of finishing the last set I felt energetic and now (over 2 hours later) I feel great. Sure, I doubt I could do a single pull-up right now, but overall I think I was far from overdoing it.

B.[/quote]

When you have a good work capacity (by gradually asking more out of your body), adjust your volume on a set-to-set basis and forget any preconceived notion about what is normal volume and what is low volume then you will find that your body can tolerate a lot more that you think it can provided that you work each muscle for what its supposed to do.

Heck, one time in Colorado I did 70 sets of pressing, 50 of which where above 75% of my max. And I only stopped because the guys (Daryl, Alex and Kevin) had arrived for their own workout.

In our last pressing workout, Nick (my partner and I) did…

14 sets of 3 overhead press above 80% in 20 minutes
15 sets of 3 bench press above 80% in 20 minutes
10 sets of 3 floor press above 80% in 15 minutes
And some anxilary work for traps and rear delts thrown in there. And I would call this one of our lowish volume day.

For legs, yesterday we did…

10 sets of 3 front squats
8 sets of 3 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squat
6 sets of 6 horizontal leg press
4 sets of lying leg curl
9 sets of standing leg curl utilizing 3 different techniques (3 sets with each technique)

I obviously don’t do this all the time… sometimes I might only get 15 sets of pressing, but I always take everything that my body can safely give me.

187

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]wfifer wrote:
I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets. [/quote]

And that’s fine. Lats and biceps are about doing a lot of work without draining yourself. Use the way that best accomplishes that FOR YOU.

To me 36 sets is nothing… when I training for olympic lifting our coach often had us do 15-20 sets of snatches, 15-20 sets of cleans, 10-15 sets of squats and 5-10 sets of pulls IN ONE WORKOUT and we would often train twice a day… plus I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to get to the gym and come back home! Work capacity is something that can be built up over time. Most bodybuilders and recreational lifters have the work capacity of prepubescent children compared to elite athletes this is why 30 sets seems like a whole lot for them.[/quote]

I was worried a bit about the volume about 2/3 through the workout (which is why I kept the biceps volume low this time), but within 15 minutes of finishing the last set I felt energetic and now (over 2 hours later) I feel great. Sure, I doubt I could do a single pull-up right now, but overall I think I was far from overdoing it.

B.[/quote]

When you have a good work capacity (by gradually asking more out of your body), adjust your volume on a set-to-set basis and forget any preconceived notion about what is normal volume and what is low volume then you will find that your body can tolerate a lot more that you think it can provided that you work each muscle for what its supposed to do.

Heck, one time in Colorado I did 70 sets of pressing, 50 of which where above 75% of my max. And I only stopped because the guys (Daryl, Alex and Kevin) had arrived for their own workout.

In our last pressing workout, Nick (my partner and I) did…

14 sets of 3 overhead press above 80% in 20 minutes
15 sets of 3 bench press above 80% in 20 minutes
10 sets of 3 floor press above 80% in 15 minutes
And some anxilary work for traps and rear delts thrown in there. And I would call this one of our lowish volume day.

For legs, yesterday we did…

10 sets of 3 front squats
8 sets of 3 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squat
6 sets of 6 horizontal leg press
4 sets of lying leg curl
9 sets of standing leg curl utilizing 3 different techniques (3 sets with each technique)

I obviously don’t do this all the time… sometimes I might only get 15 sets of pressing, but I always take everything that my body can safely give me.[/quote]

I seem to recover well from high volume (relative to all of my training) for the back, mid volume for pressing (although the weight seems to suffer a bit, but I’m generally a bad presser) and lowish volume for legs. The last two times I did very high volume for legs I got to the end of the workout fine, but felt like hell for about an hour or two afterwards. On the other hand both times it I was doing legs after several weeks of not having dedicated legs sessions (i.e. I would do them with other body parts). So I’ll see how I do over the next couple of weeks while gradually increasing the volume (if my body reacts well to it).

B.

188

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]wfifer wrote:
I’m curious about this, too. Granted this is once a week affair, but it does seem like a lot. I probably do that many exercises, but I like to use your Myoreps as opposed to doing a lot of sets. [/quote]

And that’s fine. Lats and biceps are about doing a lot of work without draining yourself. Use the way that best accomplishes that FOR YOU.

To me 36 sets is nothing… when I training for olympic lifting our coach often had us do 15-20 sets of snatches, 15-20 sets of cleans, 10-15 sets of squats and 5-10 sets of pulls IN ONE WORKOUT and we would often train twice a day… plus I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to get to the gym and come back home! Work capacity is something that can be built up over time. Most bodybuilders and recreational lifters have the work capacity of prepubescent children compared to elite athletes this is why 30 sets seems like a whole lot for them.[/quote]

I was worried a bit about the volume about 2/3 through the workout (which is why I kept the biceps volume low this time), but within 15 minutes of finishing the last set I felt energetic and now (over 2 hours later) I feel great. Sure, I doubt I could do a single pull-up right now, but overall I think I was far from overdoing it.

B.[/quote]

When you have a good work capacity (by gradually asking more out of your body), adjust your volume on a set-to-set basis and forget any preconceived notion about what is normal volume and what is low volume then you will find that your body can tolerate a lot more that you think it can provided that you work each muscle for what its supposed to do.

Heck, one time in Colorado I did 70 sets of pressing, 50 of which where above 75% of my max. And I only stopped because the guys (Daryl, Alex and Kevin) had arrived for their own workout.

In our last pressing workout, Nick (my partner and I) did…

14 sets of 3 overhead press above 80% in 20 minutes
15 sets of 3 bench press above 80% in 20 minutes
10 sets of 3 floor press above 80% in 15 minutes
And some anxilary work for traps and rear delts thrown in there. And I would call this one of our lowish volume day.

For legs, yesterday we did…

10 sets of 3 front squats
8 sets of 3 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squats
2 sets of 2 back squat
6 sets of 6 horizontal leg press
4 sets of lying leg curl
9 sets of standing leg curl utilizing 3 different techniques (3 sets with each technique)

I obviously don’t do this all the time… sometimes I might only get 15 sets of pressing, but I always take everything that my body can safely give me.[/quote]

I seem to recover well from high volume (relative to all of my training) for the back, mid volume for pressing (although the weight seems to suffer a bit, but I’m generally a bad presser) and lowish volume for legs. The last two times I did very high volume for legs I got to the end of the workout fine, but felt like hell for about an hour or two afterwards. On the other hand both times it I was doing legs after several weeks of not having dedicated legs sessions (i.e. I would do them with other body parts). So I’ll see how I do over the next couple of weeks while gradually increasing the volume (if my body reacts well to it).

B.[/quote]

Normally I keep the lower body lifting volume fairly low… oftentimes I’ll do only squats and leg curls BUT bulk up volume via prowler/sled work. But sometimes in Canada it can get quite cold so I did a bit more lifting last time.

189

Ok, but just to clarify - did you lift close to your rep maxes on each set, or was there some variation in loading going on? There’s a big difference between

50kg x 8 reps
55 x 8
60 x 6
65 x 6
70 x 6 (RPE 9, could’ve squeezed out one really grindy rep but failed the next)

and

70 x 8
70 x 7
65 x 7
65 x 6
60 x 6

where all sets are taken close to the point of failure.

Higher volume Oly lifting sessions usually involve sets of 1-5 reps (average 3 reps) working up to a daily max, some back-off sets, and not much eccentric work.

Ramping 10 sets of 3 for OHP, followed by 5 sets of 3 for incline bench, followed by 5 sets of 3 for bench is also quite a difference when it’s only 60 total reps and about 3-5 of those sets are close to the rep max for the respective exercises.

190

CT, I have seen most of the videos and read through your threads but have yet to find a sample of a 4x a week traning schedule. It seems most of the examples given are 7 days a week and/or AM/PM training. How would one best use your methods on a 4x a week schedule? Input from anyone else is welcome, I know CT is very busy.

EDIT: I can only get to the gym (weights) 4x week, bodyweight work can be done at anytime.

191

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
Ok, but just to clarify - did you lift close to your rep maxes on each set, or was there some variation in loading going on? There’s a big difference between

50kg x 8 reps
55 x 8
60 x 6
65 x 6
70 x 6 (RPE 9, could’ve squeezed out one really grindy rep but failed the next)

and

70 x 8
70 x 7
65 x 7
65 x 6
60 x 6

where all sets are taken close to the point of failure.

Higher volume Oly lifting sessions usually involve sets of 1-5 reps (average 3 reps) working up to a daily max, some back-off sets, and not much eccentric work.

Ramping 10 sets of 3 for OHP, followed by 5 sets of 3 for incline bench, followed by 5 sets of 3 for bench is also quite a difference when it’s only 60 total reps and about 3-5 of those sets are close to the rep max for the respective exercises.[/quote]

I never take a set to failure. Well, it might happen “by accident” but rarely. To me it’s all about the finances of training. Going to failure means not being able to do as much volume and I personally prefer to invest in more volume. This comes from my background as an olympic lifter.

192

[quote]EvanX wrote:
CT, I have seen most of the videos and read through your threads but have yet to find a sample of a 4x a week traning schedule. It seems most of the examples given are 7 days a week and/or AM/PM training. How would one best use your methods on a 4x a week schedule? Input from anyone else is welcome, I know CT is very busy.

EDIT: I can only get to the gym (weights) 4x week, bodyweight work can be done at anytime.[/quote]

DAY 1 - Upper body performance (pressing plus auxiliary rear delts, traps ad rhomboids work)
DAY 2 - Lats and biceps
DAY 3 - Upper body performance 2
DAY 4 - Lower body

193

I’ve concluded as much from your writings and videos, yes. So what numbers are we talking here? Sets of 6-8 with a 10-12RM load? Do the loads ramp up, wave-load, or are they just straight sets where you keep going until a rep begins to slow down?

I sometimes use a volume method, e.g. do sets of 100kg x 8 reps, on a good day I might get 6 sets (=increase the load for my next workout), on a low-energy day I might get only 3 sets (=use the same load or reduce it slightly for my next workout).

Just trying to determine how you auto-regulate the volume/intensity.

194

Mon: Upper Body Performance

1)Medicine ball throw overhead
2)Push Press
3)Low Incline DB press
4)Dips

A1)DB Shrugs
A2)Rear Delt Fly’s
A3)DB rotator cuff

Tues: Lats/Biceps

1)Pull-ups
2)V-Grip Pulldown
3)Straight Arm Pull

4)E-Z Curl
5)Cable Curl
6)1 arm Preacher DB hammer curl

Wed:Foundation FullBody Straight Sets

Thur: Upper Body Performance 2

1)Military Press From Pins
2)Behind the Neck Press
3)Flat DB press
4)Decline BB Press

A1) same as day 1
A2)
A3)

Fri)Lower Body

Jump Squat

1)Front Squat
2)Back Squat
3)RDL
4)Sprints

Upper Body Days:3-5 Reps on Main Lifts, Circuit:6-10 reps
Foundation:4-6 reps all lifts
Lower Body:3-5 reps

How does this look? Any thing I should change? On a split like this would opne just add tricep work on upper body days in place of a main lift? Also where would I add back work other than lats?

195

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]EvanX wrote:
CT, I have seen most of the videos and read through your threads but have yet to find a sample of a 4x a week traning schedule. It seems most of the examples given are 7 days a week and/or AM/PM training. How would one best use your methods on a 4x a week schedule? Input from anyone else is welcome, I know CT is very busy.

EDIT: I can only get to the gym (weights) 4x week, bodyweight work can be done at anytime.[/quote]

DAY 1 - Upper body performance (pressing plus auxiliary rear delts, traps ad rhomboids work)
DAY 2 - Lats and biceps
DAY 3 - Upper body performance 2
DAY 4 - Lower body[/quote]

When would the rest of the back be trained? Would the circuit take care of that?

196

Coach, all the recent training material you are producing of late is fantastic. I do have a question for you regarding nutrition tho as there is so much conflicting information on these forums as well as articles produced on here from different authors.

Is there a author would you recommend to read up on who is producing quality articles covering most of the bases for info on clean bulking adding least fat possible.

Cheers

197

[quote]T100 wrote:
Coach, all the recent training material you are producing of late is fantastic. I do have a question for you regarding nutrition tho as there is so much conflicting information on these forums as well as articles produced on here from different authors.

Is there a author would you recommend to read up on who is producing quality articles covering most of the bases for info on clean bulking adding least fat possible.

Cheers [/quote]

Honestly not to my knowledge… at least nobody that I would consider to be perfect in that regard, especially since there is no universal answer to that question. Layne Norton is very good though.

198

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
I’ve concluded as much from your writings and videos, yes. So what numbers are we talking here? Sets of 6-8 with a 10-12RM load? Do the loads ramp up, wave-load, or are they just straight sets where you keep going until a rep begins to slow down?

I sometimes use a volume method, e.g. do sets of 100kg x 8 reps, on a good day I might get 6 sets (=increase the load for my next workout), on a low-energy day I might get only 3 sets (=use the same load or reduce it slightly for my next workout).

Just trying to determine how you auto-regulate the volume/intensity.[/quote]

For my own training, when doing higher reps I use internal feelings more than anything to autoregulate, which sadly cannot be taught.

With clients I go with a drop-off in set quality. Let’s say that we shoot for sets of 8 reps, we use a load that allow for 8 quality reps, not to failure. When the client cannot complete 8 quality reps (he CAN do 8, but there is a distinct drop off in performance in the last 1-2 reps) we stop the exercise.

199

CT, you posted this in the live spill.

“Christian Thibaudeau: @ jonny: looks good. Here’s a suggestion: during a caloric restriction phase, the more neural charge workouts you do, the easier and more effective the diet will be. I suggest starting every day with a neural charge session at home when waking up. No need for equipment. I’ll be filming 10-15 neural charge session that you can do at home soon”

Has it been posted somewhere?

200

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
CT, you posted this in the live spill.

“Christian Thibaudeau: @ jonny: looks good. Here’s a suggestion: during a caloric restriction phase, the more neural charge workouts you do, the easier and more effective the diet will be. I suggest starting every day with a neural charge session at home when waking up. No need for equipment. I’ll be filming 10-15 neural charge session that you can do at home soon”

Has it been posted somewhere?[/quote]

When it is, it will be in the Training Lab