The Westside Method Thread II

Training Powerlifting
621

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]frankjl wrote:
Fletch,

One thing that I used with some success was using the same movement for ME 2 weeks in a row. The difference being that the first week I’d use sets of 5-6’s and work up to a heavy single. I would be pre-exhausted so the top single I would hit would be less than my true 1rm.

The next week I would work up using sets of 3 and 1 up to a heavy 1 RM higher than the max the week before, then do some reps after that.

The first week you’re going to “prime” yourself, and prepare yourself for the next week. I found in the beginning, when switching lifts every week, I couldn’t really hit a strong 1RM because the motor pattern was different than what I was used to. By getting a lot of volume in on week 1, you’ll get the hang of the movement. I stopped doing this once I got used to training this way and was able to switch movements every week successfully.

Week 2 is a true ME workout, your goal being to hit a heavy heavy single. Let me re-iterate: do not miss a weight in training under any circumstances. Get your heavy reps in, shoot for PR’s, but don’t get so caught up in the numbers that you forget what matters. The only thing that matters is what you do on the platform. Condition yourself to make lifts in the gym and you’ll make them when it counts on the platform.

3 weeks on a particular movement is a little long in my opinion, and I think you should be hitting a heavy single every ME day, even if it’s not a true 1 rep max.[/quote]

HEY FRANKI

this is phenomenal advice dude !

I did this with low-box squat the last 2 weeks . prior to the last two weeks I had only done them twice as ME work . so the starting PR’s were very low , which is why I tried this with low-box .

starting PR’s were…

1 RM …315
2 RM…295
3 RM…265
5 RM…255

so the first week I worked up to 5RM and hit 265 ; then took a single with 285 and another with 305 … 10 pound PR with a bit left in the tank ( no spotter ) . I did this in the monolift ; should have used the rack .

second week I was gunnin’ for 3RM…then maybe a 1RM if all went well . I knew for sure I had 285 in me , and hoping for 295 . I worked up to 265 , and then knew I was good for 295 . got that , then threw on 315…planning on a 2 RM PR . had a GREAT SPOTTER , and I took 315 for a triple . this was a true ME set…wouldnt have got another rep , and probably couldnt have done it with 325 .

I realize that these numbers were easily beatable , but technically this was a 40 lb PR on the 3RM .confidence is high that I wouldnt have hit those weights without the previous weeks “practice” .and without the spotter I wouldnt have went for the third rep . this totally paved the way for further progress at 2RM and 1RM when the time comes .

I will definitely be doing this more often . maybe I should adapt this strategy to my less than stellar bench…haha .

thanks man , this rocked
[/quote]

That’s huge progress! I’m glad it worked out for you. Thanks for the feedback. And good luck at the meet!

622

is this the right kind of speed for a DE upper day?

623

Yellow shirt was 'mirin your arch

624

[quote]TBItruck89 wrote:
Yellow shirt was 'mirin your arch[/quote]
yeah, usually people just say they would herniate discs arching or something

625

naw…yellow shirt was wondering "why not just add more weight ? "…haha .

your bar speed is about what I aim for . I struggle with this though , as DE bench tears up my elbows/forearms real bad .

626

doubled mini’s ?

627

yeah, de bench tears up my elbows too.

628

kinda quiet around here , so here’s some random shit…

I’ve been hitting some huge PR’s ( n.g. press , low box squat , GM’s were the most noteworthy so far ) this cycle . I realize that a training PR isnt quite a meet PR , but proof of progress rocks none the less . most notably was the narrow-grip press 2RM (15 lb) and 1RM ( frikkin 25 lbs ) in the same session . where the fuck that came from I have no clue , but Im hopin’ it’s a sign of things to come .

which brings me to the next article of randomness…

Im thinkin’ like… ummmm…maybe I need to narrow my bench grip a bit .

629

I moved to a very PLer friendly gym last November’ish . it just dawned on me what the biggest difference between this place and the Y where I used to train at .

in between sets ,the lifters at the new place talk about their own goals , training and programming strategys , competition experiences…such and such .

at the old place , during commercials , everybody would be talking about Brett Farve , or Prince Fielder , or Ryan Seacrest ( I dont even know who this dude is )…basically any schmuck they’ve seen on TV . never would they talk about their own goals or accomplishments …only about the happenings in somebody elses life , usually a celebrity or athlete .

fail

630

Hi, guys. Just saw this thread. Never been to Westside, although I live in Columbus. However, 4 months ago got an invite to train at Ludus Magnus. It was started by some guys who used to be at Westside. Their training seems Westside-ish.

My lifts suck, but that’s why I joined - I needed industrial strength training to whip my butt into shape. It’s working, starting to get PR’s, conditioning toughening up and such.

Just got done with a brutal period and doing a week deload now. They don’t use the terminology you’re using, but seems to be the same.

631

I think someone may have already said this , but here it is again from my perspective . if you can learn this methodology from someone who is proficient with it , you will progress faster than if you are forced to learn it all on your own . and I believe this to be true .

give it a shot Cav . but ya gotta believe in all of it .good luck .

632

I’ve been flirting with the idea of incorporating banded speed pulls into my routine late, and could use a few thoughts. Based on what I gathered (from the forum at least), people seem to think it’s only for geared lifters and that it will have no profound effect for raw lifting. Is that true?

633

[quote]Doh wrote:
I’ve been flirting with the idea of incorporating banded speed pulls into my routine late, and could use a few thoughts. Based on what I gathered (from the forum at least), people seem to think it’s only for geared lifters and that it will have no profound effect for raw lifting. Is that true?

[/quote]

I dont believe that to be true . people will tell you all sorts of facts . like…wide stance box squats have no carry-over to un-equipped squat ; conjugate training is exclusively for those who ride the A-train ; speed work does nothing what-so-ever ; bands and chains are only for 500 lb pressers…and so on .

I used those methods all of 2012 and saw my un-equipped squat go up 50 or 55 lbs ( gym reps called by a NASA ref ) . deadflift went up about 40 , not exactly sure .

get yourself 2 or 3 sets of shorts , and do nothing but banded pulls for 6 months and see what happens .

anybody else have any thoughts on this ?

634

[quote]Doh wrote:
I’ve been flirting with the idea of incorporating banded speed pulls into my routine late, and could use a few thoughts. Based on what I gathered (from the forum at least), people seem to think it’s only for geared lifters and that it will have no profound effect for raw lifting. Is that true?

[/quote]

Long Answer:

Sometimes forum people say the darndest things. Whenever I’ve come across someone who says the West Side / Conjugate method training principles do not apply to raw lifting, I’ve asked them why they say that. I have never heard a strong argument in response. Gear or no gear, the underlying principles are the exact same.

Maximum Effort - moving the heaviest weight you can handle
Dynamic Effort - moving a light weight fast
Repeated Effort - moving a weight for repetition

There are about 100 pages of content & testimonials in these 2 threads which would also suggest that these principles do in fact work for raw powerlifters. Also relevant to this discussion is that this thread was started by an 800lb+ deadlifter.

In my opinion, the notion that bands / chains / speedwork, etc, only apply to geared lifters is an extremely naive point of view that stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the conjugate system. But then again, what do I know? I haven’t yet achieved a level of strength that I would even consider strong.

Short Answer:

Speed pulls, when done correctly, take about 10 minutes to complete. In terms of training economy, this is a very low-cost to high-benefit movement. Just do them first on one of your lower body days & find out for yourself.

635

Thank you guys for the clarification. Since reading this thread, I have incorporated a day of speed squats/pulls into my routine. It has been only a month, but my last ME day for deadlift I hit a 15lb PR (not to mention I am now 20lb lighter than when I hit my old 1RM). It is working well for me right now so I don’t foresee changing up anytime soon until the lifts go stale. I am just forward looking by considering bands as a potential addition to my routine.

If you guys don’t mind, I’d be interested in hearing about the theory/philosophy of the applications of band work for speed pulls!

636

[quote]Doh wrote:
Thank you guys for the clarification. Since reading this thread, I have incorporated a day of speed squats/pulls into my routine. It has been only a month, but my last ME day for deadlift I hit a 15lb PR (not to mention I am now 20lb lighter than when I hit my old 1RM). It is working well for me right now so I don’t foresee changing up anytime soon until the lifts go stale. I am just forward looking by considering bands as a potential addition to my routine.

If you guys don’t mind, I’d be interested in hearing about the theory/philosophy of the applications of band work for speed pulls![/quote]

Strength = speed. If I make you stronger, you can move lighter weights faster. The opposite is also true, if I make you faster, you can move heavier weights. Strength and speed are different ways of displaying the same thing.

With regards to bands & speed pulls, the bands won’t allow you let the momentum of the bar carry it to lockout. Without bands, you’ll subconsciously quit exerting maximum force into the bar because you know that you can lazily complete the lift. You can not do this will heavy loads.

Bands will move your sticking point (or mini-max) to a lower point in the lift. You’ll be training your body to push through your usual sticking point with much more force.

If you read the Book of Methods, Louie looks at sticking points a little differently. Most people think that if you can’t complete a lift, you’re not strong enough. Instead, Louie says you’re just not fast enough. I could paraphrase it here, but I simply wouldn’t do it justice. This is a good primer:

westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/03PDF/Explosive%20Power%20And%20Strength.pdf

637

Thank you that was an informative read!

638

a very cool trick I’ve discovered when gunnin’ for a questionable PR is to pull against bands right up until the last set , and then take them off for the last set .

havent tried it yet for bench or squat .

639

I wanted to weigh in on my recent meet and training leading up to it using the methods from this thread and the gargantuan first one. Big thanks to Storm and Chicksan and everyone else who weighed in with their experience.

I did a full meet writeup on my training log (still waiting to get the videos, also has all of my training going back months and months) but I went 430/285/525 @ 220 at my last meet as a junior. Squat and deadlift were all time PRs, and the paused 285 was only ten pounds off my best touch and go.

I started incorporating more of the methods in November after I got back from AT. I decided to seize the opportunity of the winter to move up from 205 to a PR bodyweight of 220 and thought that this would be an excellent way.

My first LTT squat session was absolutely terrible. I’d estimate that it took a good 10-12 weeks to really become confident in my speed and form off of the low box. Using 45/50/55 for percentages until I got more proficient was a good choice. Deadlift took much less time and I eventually moved up the DE pulling percentages to 60/65/70 from 50/55/60 more in line with the training I used on Eric Cressey’s programs. Bench Press was perfect at the recommended percentages and .I’m contemplating moving it up slightly for the next run.

After the initial four weeks of Accumulation I incorporated 40 lbs of chain during the Intensification phase and then 80 pounds two months later. I think it was of great benefit to the squat (my sticking point is just above a half squat rather than out of the hole) although I haven’t tried using it as a ME exercise. On deadlift I’ve stuck to straight weight, my difficulty is off the floor and I didn’t feel like the carryover was as great as the squat. 40 lbs was perfect on bench, the groove of the chain fits my strength curve perfectly.

For the first eight weeks (four Accumulation/four Intensification) I alternated Squat/Front Squat/Deadlift variations on ME Lower day and Straight Bar/Slingshot/Fat Bar on bench press. During the next eight I decided to alternate Squat and Deadlift and use the front squat more as assistance which I felt was more effective. My bench set up remains the same.

I have access to a Safety Squat Bar, Giant Cambered Bar, Fat Bar, 80+ pounds of chain, EliteFTS bands, Slingshot and all other kinds of weird training implements that I’ve acquired over time so I have some variety to choose from. I decided to take these four months or so to try as many strange exercises as I could and really nail down what I thought had the best carryover.

With assistance work I tried to get outside of my comfort zone and really make myself uncomfortable. A big part of this was incorporating more failure and pre-exhaustion work, as well as a bodybuilding style back day into my weekly training. Hitting a 6-10RM on incline bench and then thirty seconds later only hitting 28 reps with 50 pound dumbbells on the flat bench was a massive hit to the ego but it was effective as hell. Another favorite of mine was hitting a 40-50 RM on the leg curl followed by 3x10-15 on the back extension. As crazy as it sounds this seemed to increase my posterior chain conditioning immensely.

Most of all I was surprised by how well conditioned I was at the meet. I’ve heard of a lot of people that can barely hit their opener deadlift from being exhausted by their earlier attempts. I wasn’t tired in the slightest come my 9th attempt despite it being 6 pm. I can attribute a lot of this to going hard on the DE and LTT lower days and incorporating a lot more strength endurance work including battle ropes.

All in all, a successful training experience. I’m going to incorporating more of the Cube Method for the foreseeable future but I won’t be throwing out anything that I’ve learned from these threads.

640

[quote]Doh wrote:
I’ve been flirting with the idea of incorporating banded speed pulls into my routine late, and could use a few thoughts. Based on what I gathered (from the forum at least), people seem to think it’s only for geared lifters and that it will have no profound effect for raw lifting. Is that true?

[/quote]

When I first worked in banded speed pulls about six months ago, my deadlift jumped 40 pounds in 6 weeks of training. This was after adding (just) 40 lbs to my deadlift over the course of 9-10 months.

Highly recommend them, for some of the reasons others have noted above. Granted, my lockout is my weak point on the deadlift so they may have more carry over for me. But the banded speed pulls really help me develop both explosion off the floor and the ability to stay explosive throughout.