The Westside Method Thread II

Training Powerlifting
421

I’m also doing linear periodization as a bit of an experiment. I’ve never done a program quite like this, so I gotta try it and see how it works for me. After I do a meet or two with that style of training, I may try Sheiko, Smolov, come back to Westside, do 5x5, do 5/3/1 again, whatever. I want to be able to say I’ve tried EVERYTHING, so that way I have more experience to draw on and I know exactly what I need to do to hit new PR’s. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is my total. I owe no allegiance to any program that doesn’t get me the best results.

Note that this doesn’t mean I’ll be program jumping for the hell of it. After every training cycle, I write down everything I think I need to do to do better next time; what worked and what didn’t work, and what I think will work if I try it.

Train, compete, analyze, and revise.

422

[quote]louiek wrote:

[quote]DavidSchonborn wrote:
Hey everyone, joined the T-Nation forums just for this after spending the last while reading this thread as well as part 1. First off, thanks for all the great information it has been a HUGE help in setting up my first Westside style training program.

I was hoping you guys could take a look at what I’ve come up with here just to make sure I’m on track. I don’t compete, but my max training lifts at body weight 160 lbs are 340 Squat, 190 Bench, and 370 Deadlift (so not very strong.) I’ll be doing 4 weeks accumulation, 3 weeks intensity, 1 week deload, repeat. This is what I’ve come up with:

I’ve chosen 4 ME exercises each so my 7 weeks of training planned will not quite go through them each twice. For the most part, these are new variations to me or are ones that I really suck at.
ME Upper Rotation: Close-Grip Bench, Wide-Grip Bench, Incline Press, DB Bench Press
ME Lower Rotation: Low-Pin Conventional Deadlift, Low Box Squat, Good Morning, Front Squat

Accumulation (4 weeks)
ME - Main lift 3-5 RM.
DE - [Box Squat/Bench] for [2/3] x 20 for total time, Speed Sumo Deadlifts for 8 singles. Straight weight.
Assistance - 3 or 4 exercises targeting weak spots for 5-15 reps, 3 or 4 sets

Intensity (3 weeks)
ME - Main lift 1-3 RM.
DE - [Box Squat/Bench] for [2/3] x 8 with 50sec rest, Speed Sumo Deadlifts for 8 singles with 30sec rest. All with bands.
Assistance - 2 or 3 exercises targeting weak spots for 5-10 reps, 3 sets.

Mon - ME Upper
Tues - Off
Wed - ME Lower
Thurs - Conditioning or recreational sport
Fri - DE Upper
Sat - DE Lower
Sun - Extra workout (optional to hit something lagging)

Does this seem reasonable? Are DBs okay for one of my ME lifts as I currently have set up, or should these be BB lifts? Since I’m making a 7-week plan, should I necessarily have 7 exercises in my ME rotation? Have I appropriately modified my assistance work to fit the demands of each block?

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed so far![/quote]

IMO:

No DBs for max effort. 1RM in Int. block, 3-5RM in Acc. 2RM if you feel like going really heavy in Acc., but not all the time.

In Int., I’ll do a 1RM, then I do a 30-50 RM to work a weakness. After that, I’ll hit a 6RM, and then hit all my other assistance. Only on ME day though.

I also wouldn’t do any pulls higher than regular. My lockout is my weak point, so this next Acc. block I’ll be doing SSB free/box squats, GM off pins (straight bar and SSB), and pulls with Monster Mini bands, and use rack pulls from just below the knee as 6RM in Int., or 5x10 in Acc., both holding last rep of all sets and pausing on pins.

Now, you’re supposed to keep assistance limited to DBs in Acc., but I can’t really do a lot with that, so I tend to do SLDL, RDL, Glute Bridge for all my Acc. assistance work, 5x10. Then after that I’ll do seated GMs and Strongman events. For ME upper, I’ll do my 3RM, then chinups, tricep work, upperback/biceps.

I’m not very good at DE work, so I always do it. Main thing to remember there is to get some variety. 12x2@50% / 12x2@55% / 10x2@60% is the cycle recommended, but I can’t go that heavy, let alone that plus bands. So I go by feel. I’ll be starting this Int. block with 12x2@155lbs + bands, and then moving up from there, using a 12" box (below parallel).

For DE assistance, I go lighter. I’ll do 5x10 straight bar Good Mornings with 95lbs, pushups, tire flips, stone lifting, farmer walks.

GPP/Work Capacity is important as well. I do Strongman events. Not everyone has the time for doing 2 workout a day or even 6 workouts a week, but doing some sprints or just walking has benefit.

What you have looks good to me. Just need to train some and see where it takes you as far as weakness’ and shit.[/quote]

Thanks for the help louiek (now and throughout, you’ve been a strong contributor). I will take your advice and swap out the DB Bench Press for a BB movement, as well as the stuff about the assistance work and the ME low-pin conventional deadlifts. Sprinting is something I do either in recreational sport or on Sundays.

I don’t have access to a SSB, since I don’t compete or plan on competing are free squats an appropriate replacement for pin deadlifts on ME Lower?

marlboroman: Thanks for the advice, I will make this swap and see how it goes.

423

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
To those who are jumping off of the Westside train and onto something else for a while have you considered implementing Westside just with more practice of the competition lifts? After listening to a few things from Mark Bell and a few others, particularly about Westside for raw lifters, here are a few principles I plan on using this next cycle to see how it works and to get some extra practice of the competition lifts:

-Alternating only a few exercises for ME which include the competition lifts with straight weight (I’ve never understood why the competition lifts aren’t at least practiced to some degree. Yeah you don’t want to adapt to the exercise but if they are one of your ME lifts every few weeks its not like your body knows, oh this is the lift that I compete in)[/quote]

In my opinion, this is a great idea for those people new to the conjugate system just because you might:

  • “forget” how to do the competition lifts
  • place too much emphasis on ME and supplementary lifts that don’t do shit for you, and find out too late

For those people who have been training this way for a long time, they learn what their weaknesses are and can fairly accurately assess what their competition lifts will be based on a variety of factors. Louie talks about total volume on DE day as a way to assess what a lifter is capable of, personally I have ME lifts that I can get a pretty good idea of where I am at. I think the idea behind this is that your ME / supplementary lifts are thought to be better “builders” of the competition lift compared to the actual competition lift – so that’s where they spend their energy.

That being said, it seems pretty common now for guys to work up relatively heavy in training on their competition lifts. Often times, they’ll work up to an opener-ish weight, then add chains / bands / boards to overload the lift. In my opinion, the key is to work up to something that’s heavy, but not so heavy that you miss. From here, you should get an idea of what you need to work on, and a better idea of what your meet attempts should be. Personally, I would absolutely, under no circumstances, work up to the point of failure on a competition lift in training. My reasoning is two-fold:

  • I never want to know what I am “not” capable of on meet day. This creates mental blocks.
  • You should be able to see what you need to work on / where you are weak before missing a lift.

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
-Alternating between working up to a 2 RM or at least a relatively heavy 2 on DE day after 10 sets of each or doing 5x5 with the same straight weight and flawless form after 8 sets of DE work

-Free squats for DE included in, probably alternating weeks or either doing 10 sets with the box and then 5 without

As you can probably see, my squat is suffering (as is posted on this forum with a 350 squat compared to a 500 pull) so I’ve got to focus on practicing that lift. My bench actually hasn’t moved much lately either so 2RM and 5x5 will apply on these. This is at least what I’m going to try. I haven’t drawn out everything yet but hope to in the next week. Does anybody else incorporate the comp lifts in or do alternative things on DE day with success?[/quote]

I think the key is balance. I know Louie always preaches only box squatting, but it seems quite a few strong lifters disagree with that. I didn’t think anything about your squat / deadlift ratio, some people are just naturally better at some lifts.

424

I appreciate the response. Yeah I’m thankful that at least I am at least naturally good at 1 lift. I never thought I would ever be strong enough to compete in any type of powerlifting and then I maxed out for the first time ever (about a year ago) on deadlifts and here I am now at least working at it. Anyways, I guess truthfully I need to give it more time for squatting. I had been focused on 500 for so long and for my last cycle only box squatted to a max (reg bar and SS bar) for ME work and that was the only squat variations I had. I’m hoping adding free squat variations to my ME work will bring that squat up and allow me to practice form a bit more. I just know that today my squat felt completely off and like I was squatting for the first time. I’m still not set on including competition lifts in my ME rotation but I will probably add free squats and SS free squats w/ minis or double minis as my main ME variations along with DL against bands/chains and GMs. I will work up every now and then (3-4 weeks) to a relatively heavy 2 or 3 in the comp lift of DE day though. I guess we’ll see how this all works out.

425

my first cycle I only performed competition reps ( squats only , as thats my head-fuck lift ) on DE lower day , AFTER squats and deads , during intensification block only. so I was plenty gassed when I did them . I only did a couple doubles , no-where near PR range . then I ran a transformation type phase in which I worked up to circa 90% comp lifts ; then a taper week , followed by a bench and squat test . I hit a 30 lb squat PR .

second cycle I performed no comp squats or pulls other than pulls against bands for DE days . hit a 20 lb deadlift PR . didnt test squat or bench …no need to right now .

now , my lifts are far from note-worthy , so the only reason I bring this up is because I too was one that couldnt get my head wrapped around the idea of not free-squatting on a regular basis . I actually tried a WSish template a while back , and couldnt sustain it mostly for lack of knowledge . but I was always cycling free-squats in . and I couldnt grasp the idea of weekly rotation ; I would run a lift for 3 weeks .

this time I said fuck it , Im gonna listen to what this Storm fella preaches . and I gotta say , it dont suck . hopefully as my confidence builds I wont need to hit the comp lifts at all . Franks , Chicks , and Louies words are always studied and noted also .

and I should add that I’ve NEVER hit 20 OR 30 pound PRs before .

so thats just how things have worked out for me so far . doesnt mean shit to anybody but me .

426

During the intensification phase, when you’re working up to a 6rm on a lift after the main lift can that lift be something that could have otherwise been a main lift, or should it be more general?

Examples: deficit deadlifts, good mornings, low box squat, close grip bench, etc. as assistance after the main lift

or should it be more like: dumbell bench, dimel deadlift, one leg squat, etc.

Also, I’m trying to focus a little more on my deadlift as I feel my squat is going up but the deadlift isn’t, so I know I shouldn’t do deadlifts as a main movement too often, so would going for a 6rm as assistance like this be ok to use deadlifts more often since it isn’t really above 90%?

Thanks for the input.

427

It’s actually supposed to be more sport specific, so yeah your first list fits the intensification phase and the second one fits the accumulation phase.

428

Going to jump into Westside with 11 weeks until my next meet. Really found increasing my speed strength and special exercises has bumped my lifts up, so it makes good sense to me.

So far I’ve worked out I’m going to do 4 weeks of accumulation, 4 of intensification, 1 deload and 2 weeks transformation into the meet. Pretty much following STB et al’s periodisation as I understand it.

For max effort lower I’ll be using good mornings, pin squats, low box squats and low pin pulls. Upper will be 1 or 2 boards, floor press and maybe some work with Fatgripz and Slingshot.

After 4 weeks of LTT for DE, I’m going to wave the DE percentages over 3 week blocks.

429

[quote]EveryLastingScar wrote:
During the intensification phase, when you’re working up to a 6rm on a lift after the main lift can that lift be something that could have otherwise been a main lift, or should it be more general?
[/quote]

I’d say specific to the muscle group you’re attempting to hit with your ME movement. RDL for hamstrings, SSB movements for lower back, board press for triceps, etc. It could be a ME movement, or it could be something else as well, the main thing is making sure it’s something that hits something specific, but at the same time, can be loaded heavy.

In the intensification block, things need to be specific and heavy. In the accumulation block, things need to be general and have a lot of volume.

[quote]EveryLastingScar wrote:
Also, I’m trying to focus a little more on my deadlift as I feel my squat is going up but the deadlift isn’t, so I know I shouldn’t do deadlifts as a main movement too often, so would going for a 6rm as assistance like this be ok to use deadlifts more often since it isn’t really above 90%?
[/quote]

Depending on how much you pull, you can do deadlift variations as much as you want. I mean, if you pull 405 for a max deadlift, doing a deadlift variation won’t burn you out as much as if you pull 800. I rotate deadlift/squat/good morning usually, but if I really feel like hitting a deadlift on ME day, I’ll go by how my grip feels.

As for assistance, I would follow the same protocol and just see how your grip feels. Being weak at lockout, I’ll be adding in band deadlifts, sumo and conventional (no more large deficit pulls, probably only use a 1" deficit), and 6RM (intensification) and 5x10 (accumulation) for rack pulls from just below the knee.

Deficit pulls and good mornings helped get me off the floor for dealifts. Sumo pulling probably helped too.

430

Hi everybody who might help me out. I did my first DE bench session today. With 50% of my best recent bench - 60kg/135lb - I ended up getting 20 triples in just outside 10 minutes and went for another 10 to finish just inside 16 minutes.

While I got a big sweat on, and it felt like good speed and volume, it seemed too easy. So my question is:
Should I increase the weight for DE bench, or leave it as is and try to beat today’s time?

431

[quote]MegaDavo891 wrote:
Hi everybody who might help me out. I did my first DE bench session today. With 50% of my best recent bench - 60kg/135lb - I ended up getting 20 triples in just outside 10 minutes and went for another 10 to finish just inside 16 minutes.

While I got a big sweat on, and it felt like good speed and volume, it seemed too easy. So my question is:
Should I increase the weight for DE bench, or leave it as is and try to beat today’s time? [/quote]

In my opinion, do both. Thats how I did it. 50-55-60% over three weeks while trying to beat the previous weeks record.

Just remember, you want speed and you want volume but you also need to make sure that your form is spot on. The hardest part for Acc De Bench for me was always holding my arch, the tightness in my upper back and bending the bar for that amount of time.

Great job and the best of luck to you

432

Hitting an IPF meet in 2 weeks time, feeling really good coming off a raw meet only a 510kg/1120 lbs total, but the one thing that I incorporated going into this single ply meet is strength-speed DE cycle on my DE lower day and I feel like it has had a huge carry over to my lifts. Just going from the usual speed-strength stuff going to a more strain-esque dynamic work has made my ME day feel more productive.

433

What’s your opinion on plyometrics as extra workouts, or should they be more for DE day?

434

[quote]EveryLastingScar wrote:
What’s your opinion on plyometrics as extra workouts, or should they be more for DE day?[/quote]

STB has said they’re good. I do them on ME/DE, both lower body and upper body.

435

[quote]EveryLastingScar wrote:
What’s your opinion on plyometrics as extra workouts, or should they be more for DE day?[/quote]

Grab The Westside Book of Methods, Louie goes into a bit of detail about plyometrics towards the end of it.

436

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:

[quote]EveryLastingScar wrote:
What’s your opinion on plyometrics as extra workouts, or should they be more for DE day?[/quote]

Grab The Westside Book of Methods, Louie goes into a bit of detail about plyometrics towards the end of it. [/quote]

“At Westside Barbell, we use the dynamic method throughout the year. Its purpose is not to
build maximal strength but to improve the rate of force development and explosive strength. Of
course, the lighter the load is, the faster the rate of force development.
Start by doing basic jumps. Drop down and fl ex quickly to start a stretch refl ex. Jump on boxes
of different heights. We like to have two jumping days per week: moderate jumps on Wednesday
(no less than 12 and no more than 24 jumps at about 70% of the height of the box used on
Sunday) and maximum jump day. For example, if your max jumps are on a 30-inch box, then use
a 21-inch box on the light jump day. For those who use a 40-inch box, the light day would call for
a 28-inch box,” (193, Simmons).

There’s a great deal more in the book.

437

Guys, any advice about what to do on a deload week to recover as much as possible? I’ve been making great progress, breaking PRs every session for almost 3 weeks (I’m at the end of the intensification phase) and today, all of a sudden, I’ve lost about 10% of my strength on squats and deadlifts and it’s pissing me off. Plus my technique was awful.

I plan on buying vitamins, doing some foam rolling, increasing fish oil and ZMA intake and eat my face off, anything else I’m forgetting?

I know it probably is just a “bad day”, I try to stay positive and I just want to make sure to recover as much as possible as I’ll test all 3 movements next friday.

438

[quote]Kraky wrote:
Guys, any advice about what to do on a deload week to recover as much as possible? I’ve been making great progress, breaking PRs every session for almost 3 weeks (I’m at the end of the intensification phase) and today, all of a sudden, I’ve lost about 10% of my strength on squats and deadlifts and it’s pissing me off. Plus my technique was awful.

I plan on buying vitamins, doing some foam rolling, increasing fish oil and ZMA intake and eat my face off, anything else I’m forgetting?

I know it probably is just a “bad day”, I try to stay positive and I just want to make sure to recover as much as possible as I’ll test all 3 movements next friday.[/quote]

I run 3 weeks int., 1 week deload. And if I wanted to test, I’d run 1 week trans. and then test. But I don’t test. So mainly I run 3 weeks int., 1 week deload with the deload being absolutely nothing, or whatever I decide to do for fun. Like tire flips or farmers walks. DB benching. I never do speed days on deload. Because I’m lazy and don’t see how I’d miss gains from deloading my speed work. I mean, you go stale like 48hrs after your last lift, or something like that, but I don’t think you’d miss gains from sleeping for a week during your deload. IMO.

439

I’m all for sleeping for a week during deload. Wish I didn’t have to work. Although I would like to eat a few pints of ice cream during the week too.

440

How long does everyone take to recover from their Intensification blocks? Do you think you’ll take longer to recover as you get stronger?

My last block I pulled 405 and squatted 350 easy on my ME day during my deload, but this time around I couldn’t pull 405, and couldn’t squat 365. I went in still feeling fucked up from my Intensification, but I thought I could at least hit those numbers. Turns out, no. I don’t think my lifts went down, because I squatted 370 off a 12" box a week before and pulled 445 to my knees from a 3" deficit a week before that, during my intensification. So I think I’m just burnt out and need to deload for a week: something I’ve never had to do before to hit those numbers.