ive discovered that as long you regularly strengthen the rotator cuff you should be fine, my shoulder start bugging me when i lay off the rotators
TShaw- sorry i missed your post until now- but I am afraid I disagree with your analysis.
You are correct concerning depth of a push-up- your palms end up even with your chest.
But I disagree with the depth of the hand on the bench. Where does the bar sit? On your palm, no? The depth limit of the bench is the bar, no? So, the bottom of the bar touches your palm, and the bottom of the bar is the stopping point on the chest- therefore the stopping point on the bench is when your palms are even with your chest. At least when I bench they are.
Zeb wrote:
“I think that the “at least 50 ways that one can get injured Bench Pressing” as you pointed out in a previous post, makes it not worth it.”
And there are at least 50 ways to injure yourself doing any compound mvmt. So are compound movements not worth it?
DA MAN,
I was quoting you-That was your analysis not mine. I maintain that certain body types can Bench Press with little or no damage. Most us however cannot! Again, my own observation.
ZEB, really, you don’t know anything about me. I never said that the BP hurt my shoulders. Actually, the last time I had a shoulder injury it was from performing slow-count flyes, not bench pressing. So much for your “observations”.
Can’t give it up? LOL. I once went for about five years without any flat benching, simply because I was trying to work more on the upper pec development. I’m not wedded to the idea of bench pressing at all. I just object to someone coming in and saying that most people can’t use it without getting injured.
Nice that you (again) ignored my point about the relative depth of benching vs a push-up. Nothing to say about that?
Nice that you ignored my point about just not lowering the bar as far, as you do with your DB bench presses. Nothing to say about that either?
I look forward to your response, which will undoubtedly be a further evasion of the real points brought up, but cleverly couched in a large cloud of rambling obfuscation.
DA MAN
(Sorry if I’m beating a dead horse, but)
What you’ve described in terms of hand/palm/wrist position when benching…when you bench, do you keep your wrists straight? (So your closed palm would be facing toward your feet.) Or do you let your hand bend back? (So your closed palm is facing the ceiling.)
That WOULD make all the difference from what I described, and there would be no significant (there’s that word again) difference between benching and push-upping.
(BTW, I keep my wrists straight because of advice I’ve seen on this site.)
Thanks for any clarification you can provide.
char-dawg,
Actually, I do know this about you: You don’t like me (or perhaps anyone) attacking your sacred cow! You are really agitated right now, and to be quite honest with you, I think that’s just a tad funny. You act like I insulted your sister. Hey, it’s just an exercise, try to put it in percpective.
As far as not being able to “give it up” I would say that would be you. I simply posted my opinion you could have ignored the thread, or you could have commented and moved on. Nope, you just can’t stand anyone commenting so negatively about your beloved Bench Press. (Did I tell you that it’s just an exercise? Yes, I think I did).
As far as your two questions are concerned one of those topics was addressed by “TShaw”. He gave a great answer (go back and read it). The question (regarding dummbells) was actually addressed by me when asked by another poster. However, in order to clear it up (again…and again) I will be glad to explain it to you…again:
Okay, I think the Push-up is safer than the Bench Press when it comes to shoulder health.
With a Push-up your hands are at least three to four inches away from your chest at the closest. Let me quote the “Presidents Physical Fitness Challenge Push-up Standards” (keep in mind that these standards have been in place for many years):
“The participant lies face down on the floor in a Push-up position with hands under shoulders, fingers straight and legs straight, parallel and slightly apart, with toes supporting the feet. the person straightens the arms, keeping the back and knees straight, then lowers the body until there is a 90 degree angle at the elbows, with the upper arms parallel to the floor.”
Granted, you can do a Push-up any way you like. And there are many, many variations, as we both know. However, doing them in the manner described above with just a “90 degree angle at the elbows, upper arms parallel to the floor” is what saves the shoulder joint, in my opinion.
If one was to perform a Bench Press in this manner, stopping four inches before the Barbell touched the chest I feel that this would be far safer. Alas, no one does this as it is considered poor form. While I do commend Louie Simmons for floor “Benching” and board benching. Overall, this is not how the vast majority of trainees perform the Bench Press.
As I did state in one of my many previous posts: When I Dumbbell Bench Press I only bring the bells low enough so that the outside of them touch my shoulder, or chest area. On my Dumbbells this is about four inches.
It was argued by another poster that dumbbells were good because they could actually break the plain (even with the chest) for a greater stretch. However, I have not seen anyone complain of shoulder problems when using the dumbbells in the fashion I use them as described above.
As you have attested yourself: “The last time I had a shoulder injury it was from performing slow-count flyes.” This more than likely is from bringing the weight down to low and loading your shoulder joint with to much weight in such a precarious position. That my friend is an unnatural movement! (I had to say it at least once).
My basic contention all along is that some people, are built to be able to load a bar (or dumbbells for that matter) with a heavy weight and actually lower them to this dangerous depth (bar touching chest) and escape injury. Unfortuneately, most of us are not able to do so regardless of how good our technique might be. From my own observations I think it has to do with two things: the first is a very deep chest which means the trainee does not have to go down as low. The second helping factor would be shorter arms. Once again the trainee does not go down as low. If they have both, then they are very much built for Benching. In my opinion.
Finally, you and a few others, are going to have to come to grips with the fact that it’s okay for others to have a conflicting opinion. Even about such a hallmark movement as Bench Pressing! In fact, matters not the topic. Bench Pressing, Fly fishing, Chess, or whatever. If we all had the same opinion nothing would ever change. And there is even more danger in remaining stagnant than Continuing to perform a dangerous movement like the Bench Press. (wink)
JEB I agree that the Bench press can and does create injures, but I disagree with your statement that "Unless you are built specifically for this unnatural exercise (shorter arms and barrel chest), you will become injured from doing it. It is not a matter of “if” but “when.” I personally have trained countless athletes who all utilized the Bench press with absolutely zero injuries. The reason I think people get injured on the bench press is: 1) lack of training experience, 2) to much benching, 3) did not build a proper base nor planed there training properly, 4) did not strengthen there rotator cuff’s before beginning a heavy Bench Press cycle. The Shoulder Horn is an excellent tool, but it is just one tool in your arsenal it is not the end all of rotor cuff training. Read these articles for more info: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION and Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
BOSS,
You make some very good points! Don’t get irrated (like some others) if I continue to believe what I have posted.
However, if you are correct, there is a laundry list of things that have to be just right in order to escape injury. If that is the case and it has nothing whatsoever to do with how the trainee is built, I still don’t like the movement as the potential for injury, regardless of the reason, is quite high!
Either way, thank you for the contribution to the thread.
zeb, your reasoning is flawed. your basing your point on your “experience.” in your experience a lot of people injure their shoulders bench pressing because it is a bad exercise.
at my gym im one of maybe 4-5 people that squat. every single time i have asked others why they dont squat i get the same answer “oh i used to squat but i injured my back or knees doing them so now i just do leg extensions.”
if i follow your reasoning, the squat then is a bad exercises and shouldnt be performed because i know a lot of people that got injured doing it.
if you cant provide at least a relatively basic physiological explanation of why the bench press is bad for you, then you may want to reconsider your stance. simply stating “in my experience” is not going to cut it for me.
btw, im not a powerlifter, im not barrel chested, nor have i ever had art perfomred.
Wow! Quite the wild party in this thread, isn’t there?
Zeb,
I have a lot of respect for your experience. I certainly take your advice in regard to pullup training. And furthermore, I think that external rotation exercises, with the shoulder horn for example, are a necessary part of training. However … This argument about bench pressing not being a “natural movement” is totally ridiculous in this context. I think you would be hard pressed (ugh, bad pun) to imagine any exercise LESS natural than doing external rotations with a shoulder horn.
I admit, I was not around in ancient times. Heck, even with your admirably advanced training age, neither were you. So neither of us has firsthand experience as to whether prehistoric man might have cultivated a shoulder horn tree, from which fell branches conveniently curved and molded to fit the contours of his torso and allowing him to isolate his external rotators. But I kinda doubt that he did. So as far as I can tell, if bench pressing is unnatural, the shoulder horn sure is too. However, I believe this fact is completely irrelevant when evaluating the merits of either exercise.
Personally, I believe in some simple guidelines regarding shoulder health inspired by the great articles in T-mag by Ian King and others. The shoulder is a complex joint affected by multiple muscles, and to keep it supported and stable within its healthy range of motion, it’s important to strengthen all of these muscles in proportion. Neglecting one set or another will lead to imbalances that keep the shoulder from moving in its natural path. In this world, it happens that most people do a disproportionate amount of benching, with insufficient rowing and no external rotation work at all. They will often suffer for it, regardless of how much their chests resemble a barrel.
Furthermore, maintaining the flexibility of all these muscles is also important; as the recent feedback to CW’s hands-behind-the-back stretch shows, this is another area that a lot of seasoned lifters can easily overlook. The fact is, being big and lifting lots of weight is, in itself, an unnatural thing for the human body, and we all have to be careful and thoughtful in our training in order to achieve healthy growth. Shoulders need care.
Meanwhile, in some ass-backwards parallel universe, every guy goes to the gym three times a week to do external rotations with max weights and bad form, and brag about their PR to their locker-room buddies. Young skinny kids gaze admiringly at the bulging teres minor and infraspinatus pictures on the covers of muscle magazines. And doppelganger-Zeb is helpfully informing T-mag readers about a little known exercise called the bench press to correct the shoulder imbalances brought on by years of excessive ego-driven shoulder horn contests. But I digress …
P-DOG,
I gave plenty of reasons why I feel as I do. I have posted over 40 times on this thread alone, (wow they really add up). If you have read them and are still not convinced, then I guess that is pretty much that.
I am not going to run out and write a doctoral thesis on the Bench Press. I have trained in many, many gyms. I have trained literally hundreds of people. And have witnessed thousands of others training.
It has been my experience that the Bench Press is not a good exercise, as it causes injury (and actually to bring up a new point I think it builds front delts more than pecs…hmm I sense another thread).
I don’t really care if it has to do with the highly technical manner in which it must be performed, or that certain body types will usually get hurt doing it (which is what I think-as you know). Either way…I don’t like it. I am glad that you have never had one single injury due to the Bench Press, count yourself lucky!
And it does not compare to the Squat, Deadlift, or any other movement. It is a unique motion that…ah never mind…go read my other posts…
Peace Bro…and happy benching!
FridgeRaider,
Great Post! (I am applauding this one). I appreciate good writing and good humor. Something that every forum is in need of.
Keep this one little piece of information in mind. The unnatural movement of the Shoulder Horn would be unnecesary if it were not for the unnatural movement of the Bench Press!
(I hope you like that one) Take care and thanks for posting!
Fridge-raider’s last paragraph was a classic. LOL. Priceless!
ZEB, I don’t have any problem with you or anyone else attacking an exercise. I only have a problem when the arguments you (or those people) present are flawed, or when there aren’t really any arguments at all, just clever jibes.
But you did post some good info in your last post there, and there were some other good points brought up by others. So let’s address them.
If you say that any exercise (push-ups included) is bad if the bar (or whatever) is brought all the way to the chest, then fine. But this means that the bench press shouldn’t necessarily be singled out for criticism. And so you should re-state your initial post. Furthermore, you should (since most people who do push-ups do them chest-to-floor) warm people against doing push-ups with a full range of motion with at least as much celerity as you warn them against benching. Yes?
D-man’s point about one’s wrists being back or not is a good one. Probably, most benchers train with their wrists cocked back, but certainly there are a lot of people who don’t. For those who don’t, the extra 2-3 inches or so may indeed make a difference. No argument there.
However, if this is the case, then one would expect knuckle push-ups, which would, if taken to the chest, be even more dangerous, since the ROM is about an inch greater even than with a straight-wrist BP. And the fingertip push-ups that martial artists routinely employ would be still [u]more[/u] dangerous! Yes? Agreed?
Ah, but then we take a look at martial artists, many of whom are in their 60s and have been training all their lives, very few of whom are barrel-chested or have short arms, and we see that, in fact, this is not the case. No unusually high incidence of shoulder problems.
So perhaps we’re led to the conclusion that the ROM, with its attendant shoulder-torque, really isn’t all that bad, and that maybe some other factors are involved. If you still think that it is bad, then I refer you to P-DOG’s post, which asks for a physiological explanation rather than just “I’ve seen…”.
My point is: it’s not logical or, for that matter, productive to try to demonize one particular exercise. If you look at lifters in their 40s or beyond, virtually all of them have some sort of joint pain somewhere. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re performing bad exercises, it’s just a function of using one’s body to that degree for a period of decades. You see this with any professional athlete. Pitchers (even when they didn’t - gasp! - bench press) have always suffered from RC problems. It’s because they use the RC more than the rest of use. Football players get bad knees. Same deal. I don’t think that anyone’s going to get very far trying to claim that running and throwing are unnatural movements. However, you might be able to say that running and throwing to that degree is unnatural, and certainly it is. But that’s a different argument.
char-dawg,
I singled out the Bench Press because that is the exercise that I have witnessed causing the problems. I have never witnessed anyone (that I can recall at this moment) develop shoulder problems from Push-ups.
If not going down all the way to the chest with the bar is helpful then fine. I am not sure exactly why Benching harms shoulders other than I think it is (oh no here it comes) an unnatural movement. Is it the depth? Is it poor technique by well over half of the trainees? Is it the heavy load when the shoulder is in a certain position? Is it that the shoulder muscles are not balanced? Honestly, I am not sure. However, I am sure that it has caused more injuries than just about every other movement. Can you tell me why that is, or do you deny it?
The way the Bench is currently performed by virtually all trainees the bar touches the chest. If you performed the Bench any other way (except under certain conditions see west side training) you would be doing a “partial” or “incomplelte” movement. Not one that is considered standard in the Bench community. would not going down all the way help the shoulder joint? I think it would, but who can say for sure?
As far as your references to knuckle and finger tip Push-ups, I think you make a good point. However, my only guess is that even doing Push-ups using these techniques perhaps the trainees are not going down much past parallel as defined in a previous post. Honestly, I don’t know. Do you? Does anyone? (Quite honestly I have rarely even heard this topic discussed).
As to your final point: “If you look at lifters in their 40’s or beyond, virtually all of them have some sort of joint pain.” I agree, but as you know joint pain can be caused by a multitude of things, including overuse. However, just because they may have pain from various things does not mean that the Bench Press is not dangerous. It only means that a liftetime of heavy lifting can take it’s toll, regardless of the movement. (There are also good things that happen to the body from a lifetime of lifting as well).
Keep in mind I have stated no less than a dozen times, this is my opinion! My personal observation which I feel is accurate for the reasons which I have stated in my over 40 posts. I am positive that the Bench Press is dangerous-I am not absolutely certain why (other than it is unnatrual position as I have stated).
I understand that others may feel differently (although about half have agreed with me!) As far as demonizing the Bench Press, whether it is a movement with far to many rules, or a movement that favors those with a certain build matters not. I think it’s dangerous. And there are plenty of lifters who agree!
“I am sure that it has caused more injuries than just about every other movement. Can you tell me why that is, or do you deny it?”
because the bench press is the only exercise that 95% of gym rats ever perform, well besides curls in the squat rack.
P-DOG,
If you are claiming that more people get hurt from the Bench Press because more people perform the Bench Press than any other movement, I might agree with that. However, not for the same reasons.
If any movement is performed to extreme it has a chance to harm you. If a dangerous movement is performed to the extreme it has a better chance of harming you! That, I think is the case with the Bench Press. It is not only popular, but harmful. Propbably not the most popular however.
As far as a popular movement over a long period of time the Push-ups beats the Bench Press. Virtually every athletic team from professional to college and High School perform the Push-up. It is probably performed in every Gym in America (and around the world) daily! Yet, we do not hear of many trainees becoming injured performing the Push-up. And the number of variations to the Push-up are staggering. You would think that there would be far more injuries reported from the Push-up.
I forgot to mention that shoulder flexibility or lack of could be another reason for Bench press injures. JEB I understand and respect your reasons for not liking the bench press. To each his own.
Yet, we do not hear of many trainees becoming injured performing the Push-up. And the number of variations to the Push-up are staggering. You would think that there would be far more injuries reported from the Push-up.
I think that you’ve at least partially answered your own question here. There are many variations of push-ups performed, whereas most people bench the same way over and over again. However, if you vary your grip width, point of contact to the torso; if you bench to various depths (board presses, floor presses), use different arm positions and so on, the incidence of RC problems decreases dramatically.
Loading is another probable culprit. Most people don’t put loads on their backs when doing push-ups. They just go for reps. Prioritization within a routine is another cause. Most gym rats bench first and most, then move on to other exercises - all the time. This is a mistake.
I will repeat my basic argument here, and then let this thread go. The bench press, in and of itself, is no better or worse than any other exercise. Routines need to be shaken up periodically, the bench needs to be rotated in and out of most programs, and different variations of the movement should be performed on a regular basis. You also, in any exercise program, need to look after your RC.
Not including the BP simply because someone says that it’s a “bad” exercise only serves to limit your choice of exercises. And since this is one of the basics (there’s no way that you can achieve comparable upper body development as easily without it), it makes the BP a particularly glaring omission if you leave it out. Sort of like leaving out squats from your lower body workout.
Certainly, if the BP (or any other movement) is causing you pain, STOP. Immediately. Get the problem looked at by a competent person and get it treated. Because one thing is for sure: if you keep doing a movement that causes you the wrong kind of pain, sooner or later you will permanently injure yourself. To quote someone or other ( 
), it’s not a question of “if”, but “when”.
However, with proper program design, and proper prehab attention to the little injuries and warning pains that will come with any exercise regimen, there is no reason why you can’t take advantage of the full panoply of movements, BP included.
char-dawg,
You have made some valid points! I think that varying the Bench Press movement as you have defined it, may very well prevent some injuries. However, why don’t you have to" vary other movements to prevent injuries?
As the Bench Press is commonly performed in gyms all over the country I maintain that it is dangerous. If you are going to take a stance that varying poundage, consistency and depth will help, I agree completely!
I think you can have a fully developed upper body without the use of Barbell Benching. I have not Used the Barbell Bench Press in my routine in over seven years and not only have I not lost chest size, but I have actualy gained it! (See previous posts for details).
I do thank you for your posts. It is obvious that you bring an abundance of experience to this debate. I hope that all reading this thread whether pro or con Bench Press have walked away with some new information. I know I have and I thank everyone for their input.