epitome,
I commend you for “stopping barbell benching.” You, like many others who have commented on this thread, have noticed that “you don’t have pain in the shoulder region when not Bench Pressing.” As I have stated, some people can Bench Press and get away with it because of the way they are built. The rest of us will have some sort of Bench Press related injury sooner or later!
…OR…some people can get away with benching because they do it with correct form. Your elbows should not be more than 45 degrees from your sides. Instead of saying that benching is bad, you should have said benching with improper form can be bad.
Wow…this thread certainly has gotten out of control. I know many of you people have achieved great results in the nature of strength and muscular growth from utilization of the bench press, and that is great. Fuck, I wish I was as good a bencher as many of you are, but alas I am not yet. ZEB has been lifting for a very long time and has learned the truths of weight training according to personal experience with HIS body. Benching for years gave him a lot of problems in the shoulders so he is trying to explain that benching hurt HIM. The guy is doing us a service by sharing his personal experience, and whether we agree with it or vehemently disagree we should be thankful for his efforts.
Personally, I have NEVER been able to put more then 200lbs on the bench press without shoulder pain. And I’m young (23) with short arms and a barrel chest. I’ve had my form monitored by many experienced lifters who can’t find anything wrong with it and I’ve tried many different grips, but in the end the bench press just fucking hurts my shoulders. There are always those exercises that just don’t “fit” with your body. Lateral raises fucking hurt me too, and I’ve never had any type of traumatic injury to my shoulders. Dumbbell bench presses on the other hand feel fantastic, and this is mainly due to the fact that I can turn my palms to more of a motorcycle grip (dumbbells held like this / as opposed to – ) instead of completely horizontal. This takes sooo much pressure off my joints. I would really love to do regular bench presses because there really is something about them. I’ve always wanted to be able to bench a lot of weight, but after every heavy session I’ve always had stiffness and soreness in my shoulders, as well as pain during the set. So in my personal case I think that bench pressing is not for me and I don’t think I’ll do standard bench presses in my workouts anymore.
Wow…I’m actually getting kind of bored with this topic, but it seems I just can’t stop posting.
Zeb…I never said you we’re behind the times or uneducated. I was only using those statements as examples of how experience doesn’t always equal knowledge(not to be confused with wisdom). What I’m saying is: Zeb, use your 30+ years experience as a reference, not as the basis of your knowledge. If you want to refer to what you have seen in the past, fine. Don’t make statements like, “I know this because I have 30 years experience.” Instead try, “I have researched this and seen many examples of this in my 30 years training.”
Ok, now picture this: an offensive lineman goes out to block a defender. He gets low and centered, and gets his hands on the defender’s midsection. Of course he is going to be driving of his legs, but at the same time his hands and arm position place him into a similar postion as the bench press(probably more similar to an incline press since is likely leaning forward). Now, in this instance the defender is trying bull through the lineman and run him over. Let’s assume the defender forces the lineman to stand up, and while he is pushing the lineman back, he also pushes his arms back. The lineman now has his arms pressed back in a position much like the bottom of a bench press.
Would that exact sequence happen, with that exact hand and arm position? Maybe, but probably not. In fact, the lineman probably gets placed in much more comprimising conditions. The point is that the bench press can and does mimic athletic movements. Does that make it natural? I don’t know. But picking up a large rock is very different than a deadlift. Unless that rock is shaped like two separate, rocks of equal weight, connected in the middle by a long skinny rock.
Very few weight training exercises directly relate to an everyday movement by the average person. But most weight training exercises aren’t for the average person. Most of us lift for some type of athletic endeavor. And that’s where the lifts relate to life outside the gym, whether it is the football field, tennis court, or the stage at a powerlifting meet.
I’m done arguing about the dangers of bench pressing. You can get hurt doing the bench press. You can get hurt doing a lot of other more dangerous movements. The difference is that beginners bench press and usually only more advanced lifters attempt the more dangerous lifts. So in turn, more people get hurt bench pressing. But, hell, you can get hurt brushing your teeth, too, if you’re not careful. I think everyone agrees that the shoulder horn can be helpful, whether you chose to bench or not. It may even be helpful for brushing your teeth. Try it and let me know.
Behind the neck presses…This is hard for me. I used to be real big on overhead presses; standing, seated, dumbell, behind the neck, etc. I used think it was very impressive to hold big weights overhead. I haven’t done them as much lately, but every now and then I like to see what I can hold up there. I guess if that was my thrill I could always just go in the front, but for some reason I go behind the neck; not always, but sometimes. Maybe I’m just stubborn on this one. I think these can be dangerous. I think you have to be very aware of how far back you let the bar drift(I pretty much scrape the back of my neck and head when I do them). I guess since I dont do them very often, I feel safer about them, and I would probably stop doing them at even the slightest sign of problems.
At the same time, I do like bradford presses. I think the limited range of motion is safer. And the front-back rotation is much less stressful than all behind the neck presses.
I think I covered everything that was on my mind.
Long Live the Bench Press
…if you want.
Zeb, you said, and I qoute "I have been posting about the evils of Bench pressing for quite sometime. Unless you are built specifically for this unnatural exercise (shorter arms and barell chest), you will become injured from doing it. It is not a matter of “if” but “when.” "
this statement suggests that unless you are built in a certain way that you cannot perform a bench press without getting hurt. This suggests that you blame the mechanics.
Next you flat out state “When you touch the bar (on a straight bar bench) to your chest you are really putting your entire shoulder girdle in a very weak and dangerous position” blaming the biomechanics of the exercise.
There is only one problem- no proof. An explanation of shoulder anatomy and why the bench press puts the shoulder into a bad position. You blame this for the injuries… Whereas I argue that injuries cant be attributed to one of many factors just because someone says so.
and never did i state that the bench is responsible for injuries because it is a difficult exercise, as you state I did. I think it is a rather simple and straightforward exercise.
you made the point of the argument that bench is bad because it is unnatural and poor biomechanically, so the shoulder horn is needed for rehab. I argued that your point was incorrect, that the bench is not bad because it is unnatural or poor biomechanically. I am indeed arguing the point and not the style.
Merlin 187,
I agree that Benching with improper form is bad. My point however is that Benching with the best of form (if one is able to obtain it-there are so many things that can go wrong) is still bad.
(You almost need a heavy weight to actually get your hands to go that low on the sides of your chest! Now that you have loaded your shoulder joints and placed them in such an awkward position you press the weight upward-Nutty!)
So, let me state this: Benching (for most people over a long period of time) is bad. Benching with improper form over a long period of time is worse!
SteverTupelo,
Actually, while I have suffered some shoulder pain over the years from Barbell Benching, it is mostly my observation of others who have performed this movement (and would not stop) that moved me to write my original post. I saw some of them regain almost the full use of their shoulder by using the Shoulder Horn. Others have had to have operations to correct the various problems. Again, I am speaking of those who have Benched for a long period of time.
You are fairly unique as most guys in their 20’s can get away with Bench Pressing with little or no shoulder problems. That is one of the reasons that perhaps most of the “pro Benchers” on this thread are so vocal. They have been doing it for a few years and they have had no problem. Therefore, they reason, it will never cause them a problem. Then again I guess you can smoke for a few years with no problem too. (Forgive the analogy guys).
Hey, just thought of a new catch phrase: “Friends don’t let friends Bench Press.” Haha.
malonated,
Experiecne is a good teacher if you are wise enough to learn from it. Keep that in mind when you are performing whatever exercises that you choose. Keep an open mind and don’t be afraid of change.
You were really reaching for a way to make Bench Pressing a “natural movement.” I sort of enjoyed your Football player example. But, as we both know, it fell quite short. The odd placing of the hands, and loading them with a heavy weight is…here comes…unnatural!
When you pick up a heavy rock you do not have the exact hand placing as when you do when you Deadlift a bar. However, you are using almost all of the same muscles. Deadlifting is a natural movement. Squatting as well. I will give you credit for questioning Behind the Neck presses. That is one potentially dangerous movement.
One of your comments from a previous post comes to mind: “I guess we both agree that if you don’t bench properly you’re gonna get injured.” That is like telling the high wire apprentice: “If you don’t walk the tight rope properly you are going to get…um injured.”
Is it worth it? To some it might be. To those who place a high value on training longevity, it is certainly not worth it! Most movements do not carry this warning. Why not do those/
Since you said that that was your last post on this thread, I want to thank you for not just raising many good points, but for doing it in a respectable manner. You are a good guy!
Take Care,
Zeb
I dont agree with anything ZEB has said. More than half of the weightlifting community would not agree with what he has said.
If you cannot bench press with the right form(shoulder blades together, elbows tucked, bringing the bar low)without pain you have bigger problems that need to be fixed. To say someone cant even do the motion unless they have weight to push them down is crazy. How can anybody be that tight? I have never seen anybody that tight and I have seen a whole lotta folks lift weights.
DA MAN,
I think that the “at least 50 ways that one can get injured Bench Pressing” as you pointed out in a previous post, makes it not worth it.
When you claim that I have “no proof” I could not agree with you more! As I have been stating so many times. This is my personal observation. We all make them on a daily basis. When one sees as much shoulder carnage as I have due to Bench Pressing…well it’s easy to draw an opinion. But, that is all it is and ever was, my opinion.
However, it is a fact that the Shoulder Horn people stated that most of their devices are sold to those who have injured themselves due to the Bench Press. this seems to support my “opinion.” However, it was never my intention to write a doctoral thesis on the evils of Bench Pressing. Just wanted to post a helpful warning, and a potential cure (the Shoulder Horn) for those who have and continue to Bench Press.
I will continue to think that Bench Pressing is not the best movement in the gym, because some of us are simply not built for it. You (and some others) can continue to believe that it is dangerous because of “one or many factors” that can go wrong. Again, matters not to me who is right, matters more that we all seem to agree that there is more potential danger surrounding the Bench Press, than most other movements, for whatever reason.
Goldberg,
While you may not agree with what I have stated, many have on this very thread. In fact, I would wager about half of the people posting (one post per person) have agreed with my original basic premise!
The fact that you are an avid powerlifter says it all. Keep Benching, have fun.
By the way Goldberg how much time and money do you spend on ART per month? But…I am sure that your ART practioner has never worked on your shoulders (wink).
Wow… I couldn’t read all of this if I wanted to. The Shoulder Horn is getting some free pub.
On a lighter note (or maybe not), I recall some of the ads for the Shoulder Horn in some of the mags a couple/few years ago (don’t know if they’re still doing this). The ads basically stated (and I’m NOT bullshitting here) use the Shoulder Horn for six weeks and watch your BP go up 30 or more pounds. That’s no BS. That’s what the ads said. Is that a bit irresponsible? I mean that’s in the same league as some of the supplement ads out there.
So, hey, it’s a good piece of equipment but they’re definitely targeting the BP and BB crowd pretty hard.
Can someone please explain to me how it is that a push-up (where you lower your body to the floor, the floor assumed to be a flat plain, and your chest touches it) can have a 2-3 inch shorter ROM than using a barbell (where you lower the bar to your body, the bar assumed to be a straight [or so close that it doesn’t matter] object, and your chest touches it) and doing a bench press with it?
Seems to me that in either case your wrists end up in the same position relative to your chest. (We’ll assume for the sake of argument that the arm/shoulder/elbow position used is the same in both cases.)
ZEB, thanks for that answer. You’re pithy, which I guess helps mask the fact that you’re not making much sense. In addition to ignoring most of the points I raised, you’ve posted an “explanation” that at least one other knowledgeable member of the forum can’t figure out. I expect the same thing will happen here again.
However, people, ZEB is right about one thing. What he’s said is just his opinion, nothing more. It should be treated as such.
Right at the moment, there is, over on the elitefitness website, a guy named Coach X who thinks the exact opposite. His opinion is that any type of overhead pressing movement is bad, and that all pressing movements should be restricted to 45 degrees or less.
So who’s right here? I’d venture to say that most anyone who posts on elitefitness probably knows more about benching than ZEB here (who hasn’t even specified what he means by “proper form on the bench press”), but that’s really beside the point. Coach Charles Staley has given the right answer, which is that there are no bad exercises, just certain people who can’t, for one reason or another, use certain movements. Everyone should be able to push something off of their chest, or over their head. It’s not something that the human body was biomechanically designed not to do. If you can’t do this (or any other normal movement), then you have a posture problem, or some sort of adhesion, or something else which is impairing your normal function. And you should get that taken care of.
People (ZEB, Coach X or anyone else) who dismiss a movement out of hand - especially a fundamental one like the BP - are doing nothing more than limiting themselves and their arsenal of exercises. It’s like saying full squats are bad (ZEB, I’m sure you remember those days, right?) … and about as accurate.
Fat Panda: ZEB may or may not be correct in this case. But that’s not the point. ZEB has proven to be a worthwhile contributor to the T-Forums, while you have proven to be a complete jackass. Please start masturbating more often and spare us your idiotic drivel.
I am sorry to join in this thread so late, but I have to offer support to Zeb and his theories. I have horrible shoulders caused by bench pressing. How do I know it’s bench pressing? When I don’t bench they don’t hurt! I, like Zeb, have been training a long time (20 years plus) and it’s only when you review 20 years of training journals (you all keep a training journal, right?) that you start to notice patterns…
I also lecture (I.E. make money!) from teaching courses and come into contact daily with people whose shoulders are blown because of the bench press…
Now, I dip, DB press and push up and have no shoulder issues. And before anyone throws the old technique critisism my way, technique is sound (taught by Brian Batcheldor in person, if you newbies remember him) and I do at least as much retraction as protraction work and always have.
The bench press is an excellent exercise - for some but not everyone.
Don’t be afraid to let something go…there are other exercises out there beyond bench press and curls!
This probably belongs in a separate thread, but here goes:
If a newbie wanted to start…
Oh, forget it. See the new thread called “Barbells vs. Dumbbells”
I have to chime in one more time, as I think a full dip can be more dangerous than a bench press. If you do dips beyond parallel(esp. weighted dips), your hands and arms are in a much more comprimising position than a full motion bench press. And you greater shoulder rotation with full dips.
I guess if you lean forward more you take some of the dangers away, but I still think this is just as “unnatural” as the bench press, since you are supporting your weight(maybe more) from a bent arm position behind youe body.
At the same time, I think some of the differences here is that the dip is probably not used nearly as often as the bench press. And those that do dip, are probably more experienced lifters.
Also, unlike the bench press, you can’t get your shoulders to compensate for any weaknesses in the movement. It is primarily a tricep exercise, and there’s not much you can do to screw up your form.
Well, after typing and re-reading this, I guess maybe it’s not as dangerous as it seems, but I believe it could be if over-used by lifters with weak triceps, like the bench press. But that won’t happen until we start hearing this in the gym:
“Dude, how much can you dip?”
I finally got back to my computer and read the rest of the posts. This is pretty damn funny. By the way Zeb…it isnt how you are responding that is aggravating people, but in the manner you are writing your responses. Maltoned (sorry if spelled incorrectly) has made some great responses to your posts. Even though he may be younger than you, you can still learn from him too! I love learning from individuals who are older than me, however, just because they are older doesnt mean i dont know something that they dont. Everyone has to remember that learning is a two-way street.
char-dawg,
I feel pithy, or so pithy I feel pithy and witty and wise…Okay, enough! this aint no musical! This here is an exercise debate! Now let’s treat it like one. (sorry I got carried away)
I like your loyalty! You sit there with injured shoulders (according to your previous post) and all you can do is defend the very thing that injured your shoulders! I love it, (shaking head).
Looks like its running just about 50/50 in terms of those who agree that the Bench Press is inherently harmful to those who think it’s a sweet exercise. I wonder why so many agree with me if it is so obvious that the Bench Press is good for you? Must be a whole bunch of stupid people out there, or smart ones…
However, it seems that many of us (over the age of 30-35) do have one thing in common: we have been injured at one time or another in our life by performing the Bench Press!
That means there are two more groups: Those who have been injured by performing the Bench Press, and realize that it is not the best exercise for training longevity, and stop performing it. And those who have been injured performing the Bench Press but continue to Bench Press anyway, so they defend it. (You are almost forced to defend something that you cannot stop doing)
And they do so with a plethora of excuses for our dethroned king of exercises: “It’s technique, if you only had the proper technique then everything would be just fine. Shoulders squeezed together, chest out, feet dug in, watch the hand placing. Don’t move the head! Arch baby arch! No no no you got it all wrong…again”
Sort of reminds me of the abused women defending her alcoholic husband out of pure devotion: “If he wouldn’t drink then he wouldn’t beat me so…I just know he is good…he must be I have devoted so many years of my life to him. I just couldn’t be wrong.” (Haha…this thread is louds of fun).
This discussion also reminds me of the great Fat vs Carbs debate. Up until a few years ago everything was labeled “low fat.” After all, fat in food is what caused you to become fat, the purists persisted. It was a fact, and not one person dared to question it! Not so fast said a certain Dr. Atkins. The rest of the story is now history. After about 30 years of anti-fat propaganda we have now pulled our collective heads out of our lower extremity. Seems it wasn’t fat that was making us fat…hmm how could we have been so wrong for so long? (Everyone was doing it…it must have been right)
The point of my little rant is this: Until someone famous, or a whole lot of little someones (like myself) stand up and say: “The Bench Press harms shoulders (over a long period of time) in most people” most people will continue to struggle through this dangerous movement.
I know it’s not a popular thing to say. But, there are things that are more important than scoring popularity points. And in my view this is one of them!
“Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.”
-Jack Kerouac
This debate has going on for close to a week now, but I actually just thought of something. Zeb says that most lifters he knows over 35 have had shoulder injuries from bench pressing. He also said that the bench press was the premier exercise 20+ years ago.
So I’m beginning to think that it is all just too much bench pressing.
I have to wonder what it would be like for the majority of new trainees if the first and primary movement used over a course of 15+ years of lifting was something other than the bench press. Maybe dips, since they were brought up earlier and still involve the shoulder. Would we see the same amount of injuries? Would people relate them to the dip? I tend to think so.
I am starting to think that this is all similar to “pattern overload syndrome.” If you are constantly doing one particular movement over a long period of time, you are constantly working the same muscles, and the same tendons, and the same joints at the same angle. You’re body can only take so much of the same thing.
One group of people that have to bench press are powerlifters. However, if you look at most great and experienced ones, you will see that the limit the amount of actual heavy, full range of motion bench presses they do. They variatize using patial range movements like floor presses and board presses. Just look at most of the Westside crew for an example. Now they still get injuries, too, but I think that is more from pushing their bodies to such extremes for competetion. Most of us have a long way to go to hit a 600+ lb bench.
I believe that our body is made to do a preset number of bench presses(or any exercise). If you use up that preset number in your teens and twenties, you are going to have problems when you get older. You don’t need to do actual bench presses every chest day.
Save your body so when you are in your late 30’s you can do full range, heavy bench presses. Maybe you could even try to show off to the kids and still put 4+ plates on the bar. You old dog.
Stay Strong