The Shoulder Horn

Training Bodybuilding
141

ZEB, what is a natural movement? Very few excersises are “natural movements”. Like Dips…when were our caveman ancestors doing those? Or multiple rep chin ups- when Grog fell off of a cliff and had to hoist himself up onto a fallen tree, did he decide to drop down to do some more chins? Deadlifting is not incredibly natural either, as few things in the world can be picked up with a deadlfit grip. And a squat? Ohhhh…thats so natural. In fact, isn’t the reason people go to gym to increase their appearance and strength in a “non-natural” fashion. A lawyer doesnt need to be as big as a farmhand, but because of gyms, he can be. Natural? Nope. And just because something is natural doesnt make it right. Cyanide is natural as well, you know.

Besides, the bench-press is natural in that you have to press things off of yourself when you get crushed. Saying it is a “dangerous” movement is stating the obvious. Everything is “dangerous”, whether is be breathing, to walking, or even sleeping. The bench press had helped many people around the world gain great increases in size and strength, and now a joker like you comes and is automatically the expert on it?

A few years ago, you where the T-Magger asking the big boys your questions, now all of a sudden you are the guru that knows all? Great.

142

However, why don’t you have to" vary other movements to prevent injuries?

Actually, you do. Any major lift, squat, deadlift, rows, pull-ups, whatever, you should be varying them.

To give only one example, with squats you can (and should) do full squats, front squats, box squats (to varying levels), sissy squats, squats in bbing style (bar high and torso more upright) and PL style (bar lower and torso bent further forward), different foot placements within all of these exercises, etc.

Any lift, repeated too often in exactly the same manner, will very likely eventually cause an overuse injury in most trainees. (This is the reason that the Smith Machine is generally frowned upon; it locks you into one plane of motion for most exercises.) BP included.

But it’s not something that’s exclusive to the BP.

143

Agreed, but with the Bench Press it seems that you can become injured more quickly than any other movement, varied or not! For example, I have done many weeks of regular Pull-ups with no variation and never have been injured. Many others I have seen have done other movements to extreme without injury.

I do agree that it is best to use variation in your training as a good general rule.

144

TShaw
No beating of dead horses, this part is actually a useful discussion imo.

When I bench, I sit the bar in the heel of my palm and grip it. My wrist is neither all the way back (I have pansy skinny girly wrists that like to hurt) nor is it completely vertical. A completely vertical wrist would mean that your are holding the entire weight of the bar with your fingers and thumb, which doesnt sound like a winning proposition to me.

Here is the thing- take your hand, lay it out as if you were doing a push-up. Note the position of the heel of your palm and your palm. Now, roll your fingers slightly closed, still noting palm position. Now, rock your wrist to approximately a 45% angle- where the weight would neither be completely sitting on your wrist, nor would it be completely supported by the fingers and thumb. Note the postion of the heel of the palm and the palm. On my hand there is less than 1/2 inch of difference in the “height” of my palm heel and palm in the two positions.

This is the position that I bench in. In my observations of photos and books and ppl, most ppl bench in this position or with their wrists all the way back, as in a push-up position.

But, even if you were to bench with wrists completely vertical, perform that little position experiment again and note that there is less than 3 inches of difference, unless you have huge hands. Think about the bar- It has a diameter, which moves the actual bottom of the bar down from the first knuckle of the hand (the spot where you get calluses), so it actually isnt sitting at the top of the hand. Then lean your hand back, wrist horizontal, and note the thickness of the heel of your palm- even when the wrist is all the way back, you arent resting on the end of your wrist because your palm has thickness. Now compare the two positions- on my hand there is less than an inch of difference, I would say more like 3/4 or 1/2 inch (but I have small hands). So, the idea that hand position would change the position by up to 3 inches just doesnt make solid sense to me, even if you bench with vertical wrists.

Now, I am not saying that 1 inch does not make a difference, but the difference between a fantastic exercise and a dangerous one- that I dont quite agree with.

That is my reasoning. Thanks for listening.

145

ZEB, could you please qualify your statment that there is no functional real-life application of the Bench Press. As I see it, there is also no functional, real-life application of the box-squat, unless you are standing up from the couch, with a 500-lb gorilla on your back. However, I box squat (as well as bench) regularly. Some people may say that certain types of squats unnaturally age and stress your knees. This doesn’t mean that we all should avoid squatting.

I agree with T-Matt. Comparing anything training related to “functional and real-life” is in my opinion quite daft. I work on a computer for the majority of the day. Does that mean that I should limit my training to finger flexors and extensors? No, of course not.

My take on this thread is this: ZEB is sharing his personal experiences and observations with us, and that is fine with me. ZEB in my opinion is allowed to think that the bench press is dangerous, and to preach this belief to anyone he so chooses. I however will also preach my belief that the bench press is not any more unnatural or dangerous than at least a dozen other compound movements.

There are several major flaws in the arguments being presented:

  1. The argument that over half of the shoulder horns sold are to injured bench pressers – There are many influences that could easily affect this statistic. Maybe the shoulder horn is commonly “prescribed” and talked about in bench-pressing circles as a method for rehab (which it is). Maybe the shoulder horn is commonly advertised in powerlifting and bench-pressing magazines (which it is). This could easily cause a disproportionate number of injured bench pressers to purchase the shoulder horn. It does not necessarily mean that bench pressing injures the shoulder.

  2. Until medical and/or sports fitness articles and books are referenced, anything discussed here is simply opinion. The statement that bench pressing injures the shoulder, is simply that, a statement. As far as I know there have been no studies done on this topic.

  3. Even if there WERE studies done on the topic that show that bench pressing DOES compromise the shoulder, this does not mean that it compromises the shoulder to a greater degree than any number of other compound exercises, unless specific studies were done.

Just my .02

RIT Jared

146

RIT Jared,

You need to reread my previous posts. My point was that there was no parallel to the Bench Press in nature. As there might be with Squatting and Deadlifting. You bend to pick up a heavy object. You squat and use the glutes and legs when lifting. What in nature simulates a Bench Press? Nothing.

You stated: “I work on a computer for the majority of the day. Does that mean that I should limit my training to finger flexors and extensors?” You have completely turned around my original meaning! Where did I say you should only work on the muscles that you use each day in your occupation? My point was that the exercise in question: The Bench Press has no parallel in nature!

  1. You gave reasons why they sell so many Shoulder Horns to injured Benchers: “Maybe the shoulder horn is commonly prescribed and talked about in bench-pressing circles as a method of rehab, which it is.” This however does not explain why there are so many injure Benchers! That is the real question, is it not? Why would Bench Pressers be in need of rehab if it was not a danger to the shoulder joint (in most people)?

  2. You stated: “anything discussed here is opinion.” I have only stated this umteen times, glad you agree with me.

  3. You stated: “Even if there were studies done on the topic that show that bench pressing does compromise the shoulder, this does not mean that it compromises the shoulder to a greater degree than any number of other compound exercises.”

I agree. I think that it would be interesting to read such a report. Unfortunately, I don’t think that there will be one coming out in the near future. Hence, we are left with our best judgements. Which is pretty much what we are left with in life anyway. Which product do we buy? What woman should we date (marry)? What religion shall we belong to (if any)? What exercises are good for the human body?

You can choose the Bench Press. I choose to avoid it.

147

Will there be (or has there already been) a Zeb-On-Pushups post/article? Your pullups article was a good read. One on pushups would compliment it nicely, I think.

148

I haven’t had the time to read all the posts on this thread so far, but I wanted to chime in. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, ZEB. I believe if you are having rotator problems while benching, don’t bench if not do it. I know that there is always going to be someone who says a certain excercise is dangerous for a variety of reasons: squats hurt your knees, deadlifts are bad for your back, bench pressing is bad for your rotator cuffs, etc. But, here is my question to you Zeb. When I bench I seem to have no shoulder/rotator problems(mind you I’m not “built” to bench: I have a really long torso and arms so im better built to deadlift), but when I do dips they seem to destroy my shoulders. In your own words could you explain why that is?

149

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
I haven’t had the time to read all the posts on this thread so far, but I wanted to chime in. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, ZEB. I believe if you are having rotator problems while benching, don’t bench if not do it. I know that there is always going to be someone who says a certain excercise is dangerous for a variety of reasons: squats hurt your knees, deadlifts are bad for your back, bench pressing is bad for your rotator cuffs, etc. But, here is my question to you Zeb. When I bench I seem to have no shoulder/rotator problems(mind you I’m not “built” to bench: I have a really long torso and arms so im better built to deadlift), but when I do dips they seem to destroy my shoulders. In your own words could you explain why that is? [/quote]

You might be going too far down on your dips. If not then look at the distance between the two bars you are using for your dips. I have found that wide bars seem to cause some people shoulder problems.

I need to know your age and lifting experience to answer the other questions.

150

I’m 18 been lifting for 5 years and using Westside Principals for it. So very rarely do I do a heavy full range bench press. I do perform the dynamic effort day but I still catch the bar about 1-3 inches off my chest as Simmons recommends. So its still not full range, but I would think that in the sense of this thread that the instantaneous stopping the downward movemet and explosive concentric would harm the shoulders??? but i havent noticed any pain…also im an avid wrestler(freestyle,greco, and submission) my shoulders are constantly being put in severely dangerous positions and from 10 years of that i would think that if I had a rotator problem it would have shown but it only happens during dips…could it be possible that from wrestling for 10 years that my rotator strength is above average and thats why it seems to not be affected while benching

151

Also ZEB i dont want to seem like im against what you are saying im just really trying to understand your view because im wanting to get involved with the sport of powerlifting and well bench pressing is 1/3 of it

152

[quote]violentvegan wrote:
Will there be (or has there already been) a Zeb-On-Pushups post/article? Your pullups article was a good read. One on pushups would compliment it nicely, I think.[/quote]

Ouch. Snubbed by Zeb.

153

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
Also ZEB i dont want to seem like im against what you are saying im just really trying to understand your view because im wanting to get involved with the sport of powerlifting and well bench pressing is 1/3 of it [/quote]

chtdrmn:

First of all when I state that long arms and shallow chest is a prescription for shoulder pain with Bench Pressing, that does not mean it will happen right away. Nor, will it happen when you are at the tender age of 18. In fact, I can’t remember anyone injured by Bench Pressing (with good technique) at the age of 18. It’s a cumulative thing…

The sort of “danger” that I am attempting to communicate is not akin to placing your hand on a table and striking it with a hammer. You know that that is dangerous because regardless of your age or almost anything else, you will feel pain almost right away! Then you will not repeat that action. Simple. Not so with Benching.

My contention is that if you Bench Press long enough, and serious enough (and you are not built for it) you will eventually develop shoulder pain. Everyone is different, but I honestly don’t remember ever seeing anyone complain of “Bench pain” at your age.

I know Powerlifters and those who are in love with the Bench Press disagree and I respect that. However, if I did not give my take on it I would not be very honest would I?

By the way, if you read the thread there are plenty of people who are “against what I am saying” so no offense there. As I have stated on numerous times in this thread and others: these are my personal observations from almost 30 years of training myself and others.

154

[quote]violentvegan wrote:
violentvegan wrote:
Will there be (or has there already been) a Zeb-On-Pushups post/article? Your pullups article was a good read. One on pushups would compliment it nicely, I think.

Ouch. Snubbed by Zeb.[/quote]

Violentvegan:

Sorry about the oversight!
I don’t snub anyone here at T-Nation.

Other than yourself I am not so sure anyone would be interested in reading a Push-up post. And since it takes a certain amount of time to put it together, to do it properly, I have not done it.

155

ok ZEB i got what you are saying now and to promote better shoulder health when you are older its a better idea to not bench now…good point for me personally im one of the hard headed people that for the sake of fun and competeing risk that injury like i said earlier i wrestle and i have a strange feeling im going to have severe joint pain when im older but i do understand your point and give you props for speaking your mind on the forum

156

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
I’m 18 been lifting for 5 years and using Westside Principals for it. So very rarely do I do a heavy full range bench press. I do perform the dynamic effort day but I still catch the bar about 1-3 inches off my chest as Simmons recommends. So its still not full range, but I would think that in the sense of this thread that the instantaneous stopping the downward movemet and explosive concentric would harm the shoulders??? but i havent noticed any pain…also im an avid wrestler(freestyle,greco, and submission) my shoulders are constantly being put in severely dangerous positions and from 10 years of that i would think that if I had a rotator problem it would have shown but it only happens during dips…could it be possible that from wrestling for 10 years that my rotator strength is above average and thats why it seems to not be affected while benching[/quote]

DE is a full range day. The only time Louie recommends stopping just short of the chest is ballistic bench and do those for only a week at a time and not real often. They can add up to alot of stress on the elbows and shoulders.

157

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
ok ZEB i got what you are saying now and to promote better shoulder health when you are older its a better idea to not bench now…good point for me personally im one of the hard headed people that for the sake of fun and competeing risk that injury like i said earlier i wrestle and i have a strange feeling im going to have severe joint pain when im older but i do understand your point and give you props for speaking your mind on the forum[/quote]

Yes, and who knows, “older” for you might be 23, 24, 25 or 30. Right around the corner really.

158

every article ive read on elitefts and the westside videos i own say catch it off your chest

159

ZEB thanks for your insight on the BP. After reading your points I tried doing just a few reps of partial reps and it feels much more comfortable. Less stress on the shoulders. You probably saved my shoulders for the future. Again, thank you very much for the wisdom.