The Shoulder Horn

Training Bodybuilding
81

I really have to comment on this thread.

First, I will whole-heartedly agree that the Shoulder Horn is a great product. Anything that promotes better rotator cuff health is good, IMO. So no argument there.

However, the idea that the bench press is a “bad” exercise is just ridiculous. There are plenty of people who are “averagely” built (i.e., not barrel chested and not having short arms) who have bench pressed for long periods of time and either (a) not had problems with their shoulders (if they’ve been smart enough to do a balanced program, like Goldberg hinted above, and take care of their RCs) or (b) not experienced injuries to that area in any greater proportion than they have to other areas of the body.

Serge Nubret is a famous example of someone in the first group. No barrel chest, long arms. Despite decades in the iron game, no shoulder problems. (I actually knew the chiropractor that Nubret went to in the 1990s, and so I feel very sure of my information.) So what does this tell you? The one exception that confirms the rule? No, there are many other exceptions as well. The “rule” is wrong.

Personally, I fall into the second group. Yes, I’ve had RC problems. I’ve also had ankle problems that stemmed from doing calf raises. I think that it would be difficult to argue that the calf raise is an unnatural movement. I’ve also had tendonitis problems in my forearms from too much grip work. I think that it would be difficult to argue that grabbing stuff and squeezing is an unnatural movement. Yet injuries have occured, just as injuries are going to occur throughout one’s life doing anything. It’s nothing particular to the BP.

Furthermore, some of the reasoning behind promoting a push-up as a better alternative to a bench press is wrong. Your hands don’t come down as far on a push-up? They do if you touch your chest to the ground. If you’re going to say (as you did with the DBs when Big Martin caught you on that point) that you don’t go down as far, then it seems to me to be a simple matter to simply shorten your range of motion on the barbell BP in a similar fashion, rather than trying to build up some spurious, pseudo-scientific claim that one is bad where the other is good.

Yes, the angle is slightly (very slightly) different with a push-up. However, if you do your push-ups with your feet elevated, then it’s not. Are feet-elevated push-ups also bad?

There are many variants of the BP. Some are better for some people, others are better for others. Both individual body mechanics and past history of injuries, as well as a person’s overall routine at the time, will have an effect on which of these are suitable or not suitable. To lay down a blanket statement like “bench pressing is bad” is simply ignorant.

There are no “bad” exercises. Only people who use them in the wrong way or at the wrong time.

82

The shoulder horn = good product.

Misguiding people by telling them that benching is bad = bad idea and ill-informed and unqualified.

83

Saying the bench is dangerous because most shoulder horn users have had injuries while benching is like saying marijuana is a gateway drug because all people who have snorted coke have also smoked weed.

84

char-dawg,

You cannot defend Bench Pressing by claiming that there are other ways to get hurt while lifting! One has nothing to do with the other. You have to know this, right?

You can have over-use injuries, or injuries due to poor technique. You can simply not pay attention and drop a dumbbell on your toe. All are unrelated to the unnatural movement of the Bench Press. In the case of the Bench Press you can have injuries because that particular exercise is not the safest to pursue.

I’m glad that Serge Nubret did not have any shoulder problems (at least as far as you know). However, siting one example does not prove anything. I suppose for every person that did not have shoulder problems Bench Pressing over a long period of time there are at least three who have had them. However, if I name three, that will prove nothing. I have already stated that this is “my own observation” several times. In your own post you site one who had them and one who didn’t (to your knowledge).

You are actually one of those people who have had shoulder problems! “Yes, I’ve had RC problems.” Do you feel that you got these problems from…basket weaving? How about stamp collecting? No, I guess not. My guess is that you got them from Bench Pressing. Still love the movement? Okay, no problem, continue to Bench. Some learn from their mistakes others continue to repeat them for a lifetime. However don’t tell us that there is no “Problem” with the movement! You are walking proof that there is!

Sacred Cows die hard.

85

SackOCrack,

Calling the manufacturer of the Shoulder Horn and asking who most of their users are can be considered research. Because most of their users became injured while performing the Bench Press is a significant piece of information. You can choose to disregard it because you love the Bench Press. That is your prerogative.

86

UTB,

I have stated repeatedly that this is my personal observation. Which can either be correct (as I believe it to be) or incorrect. Apparently it is your opinion that the Bench Press is a great exercise. According to your own definition if I am correct then you are “misguiding people.” On the other hand any good forum has conflicting opinions and the participants can draw their own conclusions.

87

Zeb,
Over the years of ascertaining your wisdom havent you realized that the more you respond to people the more they are going to attack you or become defensive. If im not mistaking you are 47? Now think about it for just a second. My dad is 53 (im 25) and i call him an ‘old man.’ I hate to tell you but this is something young individuals often tend to do. The guy who referred to you as an ‘old man’ is just messing with you, not trying to be an asshole.

Lastly, get over the bench thing. The initial purpose of the company developing the shoulder horn wasnt for people getting hurt from bench, it was for cuff injuries in general. They happened to get lucky and now can captilize on people who get hurt benching. Please reread your statements about you calling the company and you will realize this.

88

Bench Press rules…

89

How are Dumbbell presses a natural movement…?

90

Great thread!

On the “difference” between pushups and bench presses, where DA MAN talks about the limiting factor being your chest to the floor or the bar to your chest: it seems to me that, if you do pushups with the palms flat on the floor, at the bottom spot your chest is on a level with your wrists. If you do bench presses with the bar touching your chest, then (unless you have very little hands) your wrists are 2-3 inches BELOW the level of your chest.

That means your pectorals near the deltoids are stretched more than during a pushup. I’m sure there will be an argument about whether 2-3 inches is “significant”; I’m sure it IS, where something like rotator cuffs are concerned.

I’m not an expert on biomechanics by any definition. I’ll take my answer off the air, Rush.

Thanks for all the ideas/opinions/info, everyone.

91

I have learned a valuable lesson from this thread:

“Sometimes, learning from your elders is a wasted effort and that time could be better spent masturbating.”

Thank you, ZEB!

92

So, I think what it really comes down to is that ZEB neglected his RCs, ended up with injuries and now because of his wanton neglect, he is of the opinion that bench pressing is bad.

If ZEB would have taken the proper precautions and incorporated adequate training technique this thread would never have occured.

Just a bitter and jaded old timer.

93

Exact thing I was thinking, JesusIsHitler…

94

Man, I’ve had my fair share of disputes with good ol’ ZEB, but I think he’s taking an unfair beating on here…I also think he should stop trying defend himself…

What he’s said is simple: IT SEEMS TO HIM that many shoulder injuries occur on the flat bench press. He made a recommendation that those who’ve incurred such injuries (and assumedly, related ones) might want to look into the Shoulder Horn for rehab. Fairly uncontroversial, I think, and if you disagree…keep benching. You might not get hurt, you might…who knows. Do what works for you, do what you enjoy and be safe.

95

I stopped touching my chest when i bench several years ago. Now i go to where my humerous’ are parallel to the floor and that’s it. Some people think that i am cheating, however, i think it keeps the pecs fully flexed if i dont touch my chest. Touching one’s chest on bench can put undo pressure/strain on the cuffs. Find what pleases you and doesnt hurt and stick with it, but please dont quit benching.

96

I have to jump in here one more time.

Let me start by saying why a company begins to produce a product and who is the primary user group of that product is two different things. Don’t get them confused.

Now I also want to say that experience does not necessarily equal knowledge. This is neither a put down nor a compliment, but it is geared toward Zeb, who is always quick to remind us how long he’s been around.

First off, times change, concepts change, and theories change. I don’t see them running the Single Wing Offense very often in the NFL these days, do you? Strength training practices change, too. If you limit yourself to the antiquated ideas of the past, your 30+ years of experience equal very little in today’s world. I am not saying this is who you are, Zeb, you probably have kept up, after all you are reading this website.

Additionally, one’s experience is only as good as the environment it was experienced in. For example, an individual grows up and lives in a land that bench presses with horrible form. They use this horrible to bench 2, 3, sometimes 4 times a week; and they push up weights as heavy as they can. Throughout, let’s say, 30 or so years of this, the individual sees many, many injuries. As a result, he comes to the conclusion that bench pressing is bad. Little does he know that all over the world people are bench pressing with proper form and are doing it injury free. But our individual doesn’t know this, because he has never “experienced” it.

Now I am by no means trying to imply that Zeb is dumb or ignorant. But, I am trying to make the point that experience does not always equal knowledge. And it does not automatically make you more knowledgeable than less experienced lifters and trainers.

One other thing:
Zeb writes:
“You can have over-use injuries, or injuries due to poor technique. You can simply not pay attention and drop a dumbbell on your toe. All are unrelated to the unnatural movement of the Bench Press.”

I’ve read that over and over and each time I read it I think it says something different. What the hell were you trying to say?

One last thing, you keep talking about the unnatural movemnet of the bench press, explain to me what your definition of a natural movement exercise and an unnatural movement exercise. I am confused. If it is about mimicking everyday movements of the average person; I don’t think very many exercises do that at all. But many exercises mimic athletic movements. Strongmen, powerlifters, and bodybuilders are athletes(well, the last one is a stretch), and use gym movements for competetion purposes.

I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong on what people see as a natural or unnatural movment. Someone give me their input('m looking at you Zeb).

97

Been away from the computer guys…sorry. Okay, let’s catch up!

cwick0,

“The more you respond to people the more they are going to attack you.”

You have made a fundamental error. You are assuming that I consider this thread to be and “attack”. I don’t know your background, but I have actually been in situations might be considered under attack, and this is not it! Secondly, even if I did consider it an “attack” what makes you think that I do not enjoy it? It’s a forum, and I am sitting here at the comfort of my keyboard. Feeling good.

“Get over the bench thing.” I assure you, I am over “the bench thing.” I have stated my position several times, am satisfied with what I have posted and feel good about it. However 10 or 15 of you are not. Hence we will keep communicating until all of you are feeling better about my dissenting voice. If this does not occur we will simply just keep communicating. Thank you.

TShaw,

You have posted possibly one of the most enlightening statements thus far. I agree with you and feel that those “two or three inches” could mean the difference between injury and shoulder health! Thanks for the addition!

Fat Panda,

Been reading your posts for a while now. I think that your time could be better spent masturbating as well. So, we sort of agree…

Right Side Up,

You sometimes pay a price for going against the crowd. In this instance it’s not much of a price. We are talking about posting back and forth on a fitness forum. I mean…who really cares if some dim witted 20 something cannot accept the fact that I disagree with him, (not talking about you my friend).

malonetd,

They could have started the company for any reason. The fact is they are now selling over half of their Shoulder Horns to those injured Bench Pressing! This seems to not have taken hold with you…perhaps it will in the weeks to come.

Your theory of me perhaps being a bit behind is inaccurate. If I were behind and living in the past as you suggest I would be in love with the Bench Press, as that exercise was perhaps even more popular than it is today!

In the 70’s and 80’s there was no Dinosaur training, T-mag Matt Furey etc. There were only the glossy mags: Muscle & Fitness etc. The Bench Press had no equals as “the” exercise. Trainees flat out did not talk about the Clean & Press for example. If you lifted, you Benched, period! Expressing my opinion that the Bench Press is not a good exercise breaks from that tradition. Hence, I am not living in the past but broke away from it!

You question my wisdom because I question the validity of a movement.
I agree with you that those who have experience are not always wise. However, those without sufficient experience are seldom wise! Could the latter be you?

When I claimed that the Barebell was an unnatural movement, I explained (several posts ago) what I meant. If you bend to pick up a rock or a log that is a natural movement. The equal might be the Deadlift. If you climb a tree etc. the equal of this in the gym might be a Pull-up. Following me?

Where in nature do you have a parallel with the Bench Press? Where in nature do you lie on a bench and bring your hands down to the point where they are actually below your chest? That is the reason I called it “unnatural.”

This is a muscle forum and we can have disagreements relative to exercises and various techniques, diet etc. I take absolutely no offense to anyone who voices their opinion. In fact, I welcome it!

By the way I am thinking of starting another thread regarding the Behind the Neck Press. I think that is a dangerous, unnatural movement. (I’m having a riot with you guys).

98

this thread is rediculous… wtf is a natural movement?

i lie on the floor, grab my dog with two hands, and press him off of my belly until arms are extended… ← NATURAL MOVEMENT FOR BENCH PRESS

hehehehe

this argument can be made for every big movement, many people get injured doing squats/deadlifts etc…

sacred cow’s taste great

zeb i hope you just realize that some of your comments/logic were flawed… which isn’t a bad thing, but it seems like you are just blindly defending yourself just to win this “argument”

99

[quote]…But if you suffer from shoulder pain, this just might be the exercise tool of your dream!

The ShoulderHorn? is a physical training and rehabilitation aid that virtually attacks the problem that is the root of many shoulder troubles - muscular imbalance.

A muscular imbalance occurs when opposing muscles develop unequal levels of strength. Nowhere is this more commonly seen than in the shoulder. Why? Because it’s so much easier to develop the shoulder’s internal rotators than it is to develop its external rotators. Bench pressing a weight, throwing a baseball, and serving a volleyball are just a few of the many, many activities that further develop our internal rotators at the expense of our external rotators.

The ShoulderHorn was created to reverse this imbalance…[/quote]

From the Shoulder Horn website. This is why the horn was developed and I have yet to see anything about it being sold majoritively to bench pressers. Further, this explanation goes in contrast to your “the evils of bench pressing” ZEB.

It’s made to develop the external rotators not to combat the evils of bench pressing.

ZEB, you messed up and didn’t work your external rotators. You suffered injuries. I and countless thousands spend proper time and energy developing both the internal and external rotators so that we can continue to bench pain free for the remainder of our life time.

Bench is not bad and only in cases of muscular imbalances, bad technique/form, and/or overtraining will injuries result.

If you just would of said, hey guys, check out this kick ass product that will develop your external rotators and keep your RCs in good shape, the everything would have been fine. But no, you had to be spiteful of the bench and you need to re-evaluate your position!

100

imanobody,

The next time you lay on the floor and pick up your dog and “bench” him, you will notice that your hands do not go below, or probably even close, to your the sides of your chest!

While some people do get injured doing other movements, as you properly point out, they are usually due to poor technique, to heavy a weight and other newbie errors. I also think they are few and far between comparatively speaking.

My claim is that it has been my observation that even when using proper technique most people are not built to escape injury in the BP over a long period of time.

Those who “blindly” follow the crowd without thinking for themselves are illogical in my estimation!

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