maloneted,
Where did I say it ought to be banned? In fact, I encouraged all who like the movement to continue performing the movement. The original point of my first post was to offer a suggestion (the Shoulder Horn) for those who have Benched and been injured, and continue to Bench. You really need to pay attention to the posts if you are going to comment on them.
again- it cannot be assumed that the injury occured due to the fact that the exercise is “unnatural” or whatever you may call it. And since you are the one making the statement, the burden of proof lies upon you.
Concerning a product made just for shoulder rehab due to injuries sustained by benching- the ads I have seen for the horn never mentioned benching…
Concerning a product made to cure the evils of a particular exercise- weight belt anyone? Squats are bad for your back, wear a belt! Deads are bad for your back, wear a belt!
Again, many ppl have indeed been injured doing bench presses, but it CANNOT be attributed to the idea that it is due to the mvmt being “unnatural.” There are at least 50 variables to account for, of which none were accounted for. One cannot simply assume that it was one variable and not the other. Sorry Zeb, but this isnt a discussion point, it is mere fact.
DA MAN,
Hey thanks for admitting that “many people have indeed been injured doing bench presses.” You can attribute the reason that they are injured to whatever you like! I don’t really care. I think it is an unnatural movement as it is not duplicated in nature.
If I am wrong and “many people have indeed been injured doing bench presses” (as we now both agree) because it is simply to difficult a movement, fine! The point is the same, it’s not a good movement!
The weight lifting belt that you refer to was created to prevent injuries when lifting a heavy weight in certain movements. The “Shoulder Horn” was created to rehab because of shouler injuries. If you don’t think that the Shoulder Horn was created to help those injured from Bench Pressing, I suggest that you call the manufacturer (as I did) and ask him where the majority of his clientel is coming from. They will tell you, as they told me, that they are current and former Bench Pressers!
In the future you may consider more the point of the argument rather than the style of the argument. I merely posted to help others who have been injured while Benching. We both agree that there are many injuries due to Benching. I am not here to mince words, or have a debate. Just trying to help fellow lifters.
Original point being: If those effected negatively by this exercise use the Shoulder Horn they may get some relief. If they stop Benching they will get even more relief. Simple really.
JesusIsHitler,
And what function does the Shoulder Horn perform? Think!
Zeb, you didn’t encourage people to keep benching until your last few posts. In fact earlier you said,
“While the Shoulder Horn does in fact help to strengthen the shoulder joint. Discontinuing the Bench Press is the best move for all trainees to take.”
While you might not be asking for a ban on the movement, it doesn’t exactly sound like encouragement.
So in conclusion, this is what I think:
And as a sidenote, there are hundreds of exercises that do not mimic movements outside the gym. Are they all dangerous? Should we only do exercises that are “natural”?
Zeb, I just read your response to DA MAN, and I guess we’re getting side-tracked here.
I guess we both agree that if you don’t bench properly you’re gonna get injured. It just seems we differ on who’s at fault; I blame the lifter, you blame the exercise. Although you first said it’s just a matter of time before all benchers get injured. Anyway…
If you are going to bench press, do it right.
Also, the shouler horn is a good tool no matter what your reason for using it is.
The End…maybe
maloneted,
First of all the entire premise of my first post was to offer an idea (the Shoulder Horn) to combat the “evils of bench pressing.” So why would I want to “encourage” a movement that I think is dangerous? I wouldn’t. However, I have stated that whoever loves to Bench can keep on doing it. There are worse things that you can do with your time. No contradiction there.
You claim that there are “hundreds of exercises that do not mimic movements outside the gym.” I would like you name them. Not all of the “hundreds” just perhaps 50 or 60 of them. And yes, the further you get away from natural movements the more problems that you will have with your body long term. How old are you anyway? I am guessing in your 20’s. Call me in about 10 or 15 years…you might agree at that point.
As far as your list goes, I agree with all but the last one. A weenie is one who (among other things) follows the crowd…that would be you!
I fit into your second category, the young male who has not been lifting long enough to get injured. I am 19 and I have been lifting for 4 years. I perform using strict form, and frankly I love the feeling of bench pressing. What can I do to minimize the chances of injury? Isn’t there a certain level of danger any time the body is placed under the forces of heavy weight?
Fregu,
There have been many fine suggestions on this thread. Building the shoulder joint to withstand the rigors of the bench press is the smartest move.
Scroll back over some of the posts, you will get some great ideas. Of coruse the best idea is not to Bench Press at all (wink).
Old man, I’m quoting you directly here and you are wrong!
The makers of the Shoulder Horn weren’t sitting around saying, “Wow, look at all the bench pressing injuries! I bet we could make a mint by catering to these folks!”
We all know that the horn can be used to help to prehab/rehab the cuffs but it was not created in response to injuries caused while bench pressing.
Hell, I find that overhead pressing is quite unnatural and places more strain on my cuffs. Cleans and snatches, if done improperly causes extreme damage BUT with proper prehab techniques such as using Cressey’s program, strong cuffs can be built.
You claim that the bench press is dangerous is wrong. Everything is life is potentially dangerous! While flopping back into bed back in November I torn my meniscus. So, based upon my experience and wisdom, you should never go to bed cause it causes injuries! Maybe someone should invent a bed horn to prevent meniscus injuries.
Wow, a long thread, I confess to not having read all of it:
Right Side Up: I really think you were doing too many sets of BP. I know all of these great “high-volume” Russian-type routines (or German volume-whatever) are out there, but I think common sense has to prevail, especially with a movement like the BP… a movement that we all know can yield great results but that we also know has a potential for shoulder strain or worse.
Look, I’m for any type of routine that will work. But, as has been stated in this thread, is it always the BP or is it the fact that people are severely over working this movement, not properly training the antagonistic muscles, bouncing the bar off their chests, using wide-elbows out grips and lowering (or how about dropping) the bars to their upper chests, etc.
Okay, the potential for injury is there… but, 2 or 3 working sets done properly is not going to hurt too many people.
Fregu:
Bench but don’t overdo it. Give equal emphasis to your upper back (Rows, DLs) and rear delts (ext. rotation exercises, rear delt flyes) and your lower body as well.
Use good form on the BP. Be very careful if using a wide grip and bringing the bar to your upper chest. Don’t go to failure all the time. I can’t stand it when I see the youngins’ in the gym doing forced rep after forced rep with more weight than they should be working with. I never even did that when I was their age (I’m 42). I always worked hard and with a spotter but rarely did forced reps. I’m not a big believer in forced reps. Only on occasion.
I don’t think you should give up the bench press because, let’s face it, it works. But, some smart training on your part can go a long way towards keeping you fit and bench pressing well.
The shoulder horn is a great product. I also really like clubbells for rotator cuff strength as well as overall shoulder stability. Many Tornado ball drills work as well.
Mike Mahler
JesusIsHitler,
Fact: the company that makes the Shoulder Horn sells most to those who have been injured from the Bench Press! If you take the time to call them they will gladly offer that piece of information to you. You can dismiss this fact if you like, to me it is a very telling piece of evidence along with my own observations.
Let’s look at some of your outlandish statements: “Hell I find that overhead pressing is quite unnatural and places more strain on my cuffs.” Whatever you happen to find dangerous to your own body should be discontinued. Is that simple enough for you? However, that does not mean that most people are bothered by overhead pressing. Do you understand this?
“Everything in life is potentially dangerous! While flopping back into bed back in November I torn (sp) my meniscus, So, based upon my experience and wisdom, you should never go to bed cause it causes injuries.” Only a moron would draw that conclusion based upon that incident. That is certainly not my conclusion, I hope it is not yours either. However, when the same types of injuries seem to revolve around the same exercise repeatedly, then there may be a cause and effect.
I will repeat it once again for you: I have personally observed many, many injuries over a 30+ year period of training, involving the Bench Press. I simply passed that on to the forum. You seem to have taken the news in a very hostile way. I have scrolled back and am at a loss to figure out why you would begin name calling on a thread regarding Bench Pressing.
Calling me an “old man” is an attempt at insulting me because you do not agree with my point of view. That can be considered childish and inapropriate. This is a simple exchange of information? Why you feel a need to name call is beyond me. However, my discussion with you is now permanently finished.
I suggest that you go do some heavy benching tonight. (haha).
kenmen,
You have some good suggestions there! If one is going to continue to Bench press there are precautions that need to be taken. The Shoulder Horn is only one answer, there are others.
ZEB: Have you tried CW’s suggestion? Any initial impression?
bino,
I am working my chest tomorrow and am going to give Chads little twist with the Shoulder Horn a try. It will be interesting to feel how heavy 15lb. dumbbells seem at that angle.
I stopped barbell benching to my chest. The only reason I could go that low was becasue of the weight pressing down on my arms. When I stand up and bench, my arms only go 3 inches off my chest. any closer and it’s undoable without a ripping feling in my shoudlers.
dunno if I’ll continue to bnech press. Might totally replace it with Db and push ups. I don’t have the same pain after doing either of them.
epitome.
Zeb: As much as we’ve disagreed in the past (gay marriage, anyone?) I gotta give you props for this thread. Wish I’d read it back in the mid-80’s, when I was competing in raw events and benching 3X per week. Not that it matters, but my numbers compared favorably with some of the “experts” who’ve chimed in (the quotes aren’t meant to reflect sarcasm, merely my opinion that in such an empiracally-based subject it’s tough to have realistic data on anything).
I can’t believe people have taken your "public service announcement and gotten so damned indignant about it!
I’m not sure what the points about technique, lat recruitment, and other peripherals are meant to address. I, like so many others, don’t have a full-time coach like Dave Tate et al looking over my shoulder, ensuring that my arch is correct and that my volume of shoulder work is spot on. In short, I make do with what I have, and that probably makes some exercises inherently more dangerous than others. I believe that bench is one of them. This is probably due to several reasons. One is that the relatively advantageous body position (compared to, say, overhead press) means that you can really push some iron. Good for your max, maybe not so good for your rotators. Second, the relative drain on your recuperative powers and your neurological system is probably far less than squats or deads, which leads to a great potential for overtraining (not many guys I know dead twice per week, although it’s frequently seen with benchers).
I believe all this played a role in me trashing both supraspinatus back while I competed. Maybe I did it because my lats weren’t fully engaged, or my arc of movement was off, or my pants were too tight…whatever the reason, I did it benching. And I’m certain that any exercise that may have strengthened my rotators and perhaps have prevented the tears would’ve been worth trying.
If you keep benching without pain, good on ya. If you keep benching without rotator work, even better. But for us mortals, especially old bastards like Zeb and I, prevention ain’t a bad road to travel.
Boscobarbell,
Great post and very well said!
It really was a “public service” announcement as you pointed out. However, whenever you attack a sacred cow you stir the pot a bit.