The Shoulder Horn

Training Bodybuilding
41

Goldberg,

I have no idea why anyone would attack the squat as it is a natural movement. Pressing behdind the neck is a dangerous movement. Where do you a movement like that performed other than in a gym? You don’t!

402lbs. while perhaps not up to your standard is far more than your average trainee will ever bench press. If you have gotten to that level without injury that usually means that you have the body mechanics to bench (shorter arms barrel chest).

By the way, I think you better do a little reading regarding the history of weight lifting. It might be fun to sit at your key board and poke fun at the concept. However, broadening your knowledge regarding the history of lifting is not only interesting but enlightening as well.

42

DA MAN,

Proof? I see you want some sound science behind my theorys, is that it? Sorry, I only have my personal observations during a period of over 30 years.

If you like I will PM you every time someone complains on this forum about an injury that was generated from Bench Pressing. I would venture a guess that there are more BP injuries than almost all the other types of injuries combined. It will still be unscientific, but I think much can be gained by observing what occurs around you.

43

I can guarantee you one thing. Half the people on here who claim an injury was caused by something have no idea what they are talking about. Maybe its not the bench press but the lack of upper back development that causes the injury.

I am not barrel chested and my arms are not short. Ive already told you that I have a very long stroke on the bench press.

44

All my bench press injuries were because of extremely hypermobile shoulders. Something the bench press did not give me. When you can move your humerus around in the socket any movement you do will eventually cause inflammation and pain.

45

[quote]Proof? I see you want some sound science behind my theorys, is that it? Sorry, I only have my personal observations during a period of over 30 years.

If you like I will PM you every time someone complains on this forum about an injury that was generated from Bench Pressing. I would venture a guess that there are more BP injuries than almost all the other types of injuries combined. It will still be unscientific, but I think much can be gained by observing what occurs around you. [/quote]

I’m pounding my head on my desk because of the crappiness of this comment. I might get a pencil and attempt to poke out my eyes to get to the part of my brain that holds all my reasoning and logical skills because of this reply.

46

Well, I have to say, ZEB, even though I never told you this before, but I remember back 2 years ago when I first started working out, being on a bench pressing type machine (before I found T-Mag, of course) and feeling something “pop.” I was never able to use that machine again until I had surgery to resect supraspinatus and infraspinatus. Of course it wasn’t just that I couldn’t work out. I had quite a bit of pain, limited ROM and even trouble sleeping at night.

After a few months layoff, which included rehab, I was off and running, but shoulder, joint and RC health has been a priority ever since.

I did not lay a proper foundation. I was not following a well designed or periodized program. And as a newbie/first-time lifter, I’m sure I had all sorts of imbalances.

Thank God for T-mag, and the good advice I’ve gotten here. Continue your crusade for avoiding those exercises which have a high cost-to-benefit ratio.

47

Though I know he’s seen many of these injuries, Zeb posted, I believe, in response to my recent injury that incurred while on set 6 of ABBH 1’s 80% horizontal push/pull day.

I was doing 230 lbs for 10 sets of 4 reps and all of a sudden it felt funny…Seventh set felt terribly vulnerable and I called it quits.

That was 2 weeks ago, and it still hurts, even to the touch. Will I bench again? most likely…anytime soon and at all heavy? doubtfully.

It’s tough to make a blanket statement and defend it, but seems like Zeb’s seen a bunch of these…

48

Goldberg,

Now you are telling me that when someone gets an injury they have no idea how they got it? Well, that’s quite a statement! Let me ask you a question, when you get an injury do you know how you got it? (I’m smiling).

49

JesusIsHitler,

By all means continue to bang your head against the wall. Judging by your most recent post…it can only help!

50

Right side up,

Yes, I have seen “a bunch of these.” When you load the shoulder joints with a heavy weight lay on your back and bring your hands down to your chest you open up the door for all sorts of shoulder problems, eventually.

I give you credit for halting your session when you felt “terribly vulnerable.”

I wonder what types of responses I would get if I started a thread called: Lifting Injuries? Again, it may not be scientific, but then again if over half of all injuries are Bench press related it does in fact tell you something.

51

Terry,

Thank you, it’s not about how much you can lift a weight, it’s about how long you can lift it! Having a great body for a few years and then not being able to move it properly for the remainder of your life is not what it’s all about, at least not for me.

52

I’d make a guess that the majority of bench press-shoulder related injuries are from not keeping your elbows tucked in. Some may say it’s a bodybuilding style of bench press used to stimulate more of the pecs but for me it only caused pain in the shoulders. Once I learned to keep my elbows tucked my pain went away and my poundages soared.

53

I agree with you completely Zeb although it’s not a popular opinion. I’m not built to bench press and I thoroughly trashed my shoulders to stroke my ego. I haven’t benched in years now and my shoulders are finally getting back into a somewhat reasonable condition. Bench pressing, unless you’re structurally built for it, is highly overrated and totally unnecessary.

54

ZEB

Just because an injury occured during the bench press does not mean it was due to the poor biomechanical configuration of the exercise. There is no causal link there. It may very well have been from bad form or too much weight or from a pre-existing condition that the bench merely brought to the surface. There are too many variables to determine that biomechanics is the culprit.

From my measly 12 years of experience study of biology, mechanics and biomechanics, I hesitate to say that it is poor biomechanics that is the problem. For every 1 person I see with proper bench pressing technique at any gym i have been to or the one I work at, I see at least 25 with horrid form at best. Slamming the bar on the chest, rolling around on the bench, uneven grips, them benching while the spotter is doing a shrug- on the warmup set, it is insane.

While experience is useful in many cases, in one such as this it lacks. There are too many variables and very little supporting evidence to determine that it is poor biomechanics over some other variable. There simply isnt enough proof. After all, anecdotal evidence and opinion are the lowest forms of proof…

And as for being built for bench, I am far from it. Long ass monkey arms right here. But still have never had a shoulder problem, even while benching, pressing behind the neck and doing dips…

While I respect your experience and view, ZEB, you simply have not provided evidence.

55

I’m sorry, but I can’t say I totally agree that if you’re not built to bench, then you shouldn’t. Zeb, you mentioned having a “barrel chest” as a prerequisite for benching, but I think Goldberg brought up a much neglected point about the lats.

If you take the time to build and strengthen your upper back, you are increasing the thickness of your back, and that will raise your chest higher off the bench. You are now developing your own barrel chest. And your new upper body size will also give you more stability on the bench.

I think most of us would agree that when we started lifting, we worked mostly the pretty and visible muscles,i.e. pecs, biceps, etc. However, this leads most people into trying to bench too much weight with the most important benching muscles underdeveloped; triceps and lats.

One more thing, form and technique cannot be stressed enough. Another mistake inexperienced lifters make is that it matters not how the weight gets up, but just that it gets up. This leads to all sorts of insane arm placement, wiggling on the bench, and other surefire ways to cause an injury.

I guess my point is that while the bench press is not exactly “a natural movement,” and has the potential for injury, I don’t think it deserves the attack it is getting here. I think the key is education; know what muscles are involved in the lift and learn to do the exercise properly. We can’t completely blame the exercise; I think most of the blame falls on the lifter.

Any exercise has the potential for danger and injury if done improperly. The bench press seems get extra heat for being so popular(especially with inexperienced lifters), and the involvement of a complicated joint like the shoulders.

Just my opinion…

56

Zeb,
You have seemed to gain an enormous amount of wisdom over the years, but im not sure i believe all of it. The biggest issue with lifting is proper form and technique. I suspect many who get hurt from doing bench is a result of poor technique or under-developed shoulders and triceps. Everyone trys to do more than they should on bench, so i suspect this is were many rotator cuff injuries come from. Fortunately i have a barrel shaped chest so bench is by far my best exercise.
Where do i get the right to make some of these comments? Even though i’ve only been training for 8 years (im only 25), 5 years non-stop, i can rest pause 405. All natural and have never used any bench shirts of any kind. In fact, i havent had a protein shake in probably 9 months.
Also, Jackass and Goldberg have made several valuable points in this thread.
corey

57

Sorry for those who i missed who made great additions to this thread. I didnt read everyones responses before i wrote my statements.

58

All very good points!

Again, I did not begin this thread to debate the merits of the Bench Press. To me it is obviously a dangerous exercise. So dangerous in fact that an entire company was begun on one product (the Shoulder Horn)which assists those who have who have suffered shoulder problems from Bench Pressing!

How many industrys have popped up to save our joints from Pull-ups, Push-ups, Barbell Presses, Deadlifts, etc? You cannot defend the Bench by claiming that “the reason there are so many injuries is that trainees are doing the movement wrong.” That only adds further proof that the movement is a dangerous one! If it cannot be done properly and is performed in a wrong fashion by so many, how is that good? The “proof” offered by those defending the movement seems quite weak.

How many studies have there been that prove conclusively that walking out in front of a fast moving vehicle is dangerous? Not one, so why do we look both ways to avoid such a scene? I think there is a time for common sense. Something that is sorely missing in certain areas of todays muscle building world.

Furthermore, I suggest that the scientific “proof” that you want to see will probably never be shown. The Bench Press is the most heavily promoted movement in the world of fitness. this is so for many reasons. I imagine that one good reason is that a new trainee just loves the idea of lying down while exercising.

Why else is the Bench Press so heavily promoted and movements like the Push-up thrown to the side? No one can make money selling a “Push-up bench.” However, a great deal of money is made yearly by those selling Benches, Bench Press machines, Bench shirts etc. Do you think that there will ever be a large scale study on the dangers of the Bench Press movement? Let’s see, who would do that study? Hmm, an equipment company? No. A supplement company? What would be the point? Supplement companies have no reason to rock the boat. Many of them are on shaky ground to begin with.

Why the love for Bench Pressing? I will take a stab at it: 1. tradition. Since the 1950’s we have been Bench Pressing. When the guys get together they ask “how much do you bench.” 2. As I have already stated, lying on your back just seems like a good thing to new trainees. After all isn’t that more appealing than say a clean and press? 3. The multitude of manufacturers who promote various Powerlifting or pure Bench Press meets. I am sure that there are other reasons as well. I don’t expect this situation to change. However, that will not stop me from pointing out what I have witnessed over the years.

All who are in love with the Bench Press, for whatever reason, should by all means continue to do the movement. It was not the point of this post to stop you in anyway from enjoying the exercises that you love. Sometimes we do love those people and things that can hurt us, but that does not seem to lessen our love one bit. Human nature I suppose. When we love, we love!

Finally, please forgive me in advance for pointing out in the future the multitude of injuries caused directly from the Bench Press as they are reported on this forum. As I have stated it seems that well over half of all injuies that are reported here, in this microcosm of the muscle building world, are Bench Press related. Oh I’m sorry, that is not scientific is it? But, it does have some merit does it not? The next time you make a decision in your life make sure that you launch a scientific study…(I’m smiling again).

Of course, we will never know if the Bench Press directly caused these injuries. However, in most cases they don’t seem to be blaming the Clean & Press, the Deadlift, or a hundred other movements. No, it usually seems to center around the Bench Press. Odd huh? I guess it could just be a coincidence…but I doubt it.

59

Did you ever stop to think that the amount of injuries directly relates to the amount of people doing the exercise? Huh? Did ya? Maybe that’s why there is so many more bench press injuries than clean and press injuries or deadlift injuries.

Saying that an activity can be dangerous if done wrong is obvious, but that doesn’t mean it should be banned. Are you against driving, because it’s dangerous(and deadly), and most accidents seem to come from people that chose not to drive safely. So, if you chose not to bench press safely, that is your fault, not the exercise’s.

If every first time weight lifter walked into gym and tried to do clean and presses, I’m sure we would see a ton of clean and press injuries. Especially if the clean and press was cosidered an “ego-lift” much like the bench press.

60

The shoulder horn isn’t in response to bench pressing injuries. It is in response to weak rotator cuffs. Bench is hard and taxing on the cuffs. Primarily because they are not trained or most people don’t even consider training them.