The Rep

Training
81

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

[/quote]

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

82

[quote]JHollywood wrote:
Hey Christian,

Have you found there there is an exercise on which lifters typically “get” the perfect rep faster/more easily than others?

And have you found that the feeling of “getting it” helps lifters more effectively apply it to other exercises?[/quote]

It depends on the individual. I’m a natural presser, so to me it comes easily on benches and overhead presses, but it took me a while to nail the pulling movements.

Others are the opposite.

83
  1. CT or any one else, how do you teach the snappy turn around. I understand that twitch rep is a great method. But any other good tips/method. Beside twitch rep and foucusing on the fast turn around?
  2. If i do 1-2 sets of 9 secs twitch rep form of the exersice. Before every exersice you have that day. Will it “over stimulated” the CNS?
84

CT et al,

I tried the technique with bench press yesterday, “pulling” the bar toward me in the last third of the eccentric phase, while contracting my lats and rhomboids (retracting my scapulae). I felt like my lats got more of a workout than they usually do when I bench.

Does the quick turnaround in some way mimic the effect of elastic energy in the muscles? I suppose by flexing the antagonist muscles, you’ve created a tight rubber band that’s going to naturally expand when you make the concentric contraction for the regular muscle group.

CT or anyone, am I doing this wrong?

85

Coach,
You mentioned testing Nate, Stu, and AC’s twitch reps vs. dead start pressing.

My question is:
Do you have any similar tests for other muscle groups or movements?

For example, I was thinking…

Pendlay row vs. Bent Row
Full squat vs. Squat off the rack (bottom position)
Not sure about posterior chain

86

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!![/quote]

Coach,

I keep coming back to the same fundamental question:

If the goal is max force and a quick turnaround, why the need to ever go heavy?

If you can produce the same or more force by going faster with lighter weight, wouldn’t it be counter-intuitive to go heavier if your max force (mass x acceleration) is actually decreasing?

I may be overlooking a key variable, but either way a clarification would help me alot. Thanks

AD

87

[quote]ADvanced TS wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

Coach,

I keep coming back to the same fundamental question:

If the goal is max force and a quick turnaround, why the need to ever go heavy?

If you can produce the same or more force by going faster with lighter weight, wouldn’t it be counter-intuitive to go heavier if your max force (mass x acceleration) is actually decreasing?

I may be overlooking a key variable, but either way a clarification would help me alot. Thanks

AD

[/quote]

Check out a thread in the Alpha cell by GluteusGigantis, he wrote a mini-article revolving around this exact question. It’s called Muscle Mechanics Review.

88

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
ADvanced TS wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

Coach,

I keep coming back to the same fundamental question:

If the goal is max force and a quick turnaround, why the need to ever go heavy?

If you can produce the same or more force by going faster with lighter weight, wouldn’t it be counter-intuitive to go heavier if your max force (mass x acceleration) is actually decreasing?

I may be overlooking a key variable, but either way a clarification would help me alot. Thanks

AD

Check out a thread in the Alpha cell by GluteusGigantis, he wrote a mini-article revolving around this exact question. It’s called Muscle Mechanics Review.[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up, I don’t mean to drag from other threads but this quote is extremely relevant here:

GluteusGigantis wrote:
"Your last point is exactly right. This is the exercise physiology behind muscle contraction, but anyone with a good level of lifting experience will have already figured this out.

e.g.
If I pause at the bottom of the bench press, it makes it a bit harder pushing it up again
Hmmm, when I go too heavy I can’t really control the weight on the way down
Gee, lifting a heavy weight, I can’t get it to go very fast no matter how hard I push
If I’m not careful lowering that heavy weight, it can get away from me pretty easily
I can take more load if I just do the negative and get someone to spot me on the way up. "

Not sure if it clears up my question, but definitely lends a different perspective.

89

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
ADvanced TS wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

Coach,

I keep coming back to the same fundamental question:

If the goal is max force and a quick turnaround, why the need to ever go heavy?

If you can produce the same or more force by going faster with lighter weight, wouldn’t it be counter-intuitive to go heavier if your max force (mass x acceleration) is actually decreasing?

I may be overlooking a key variable, but either way a clarification would help me alot. Thanks

AD

Check out a thread in the Alpha cell by GluteusGigantis, he wrote a mini-article revolving around this exact question. It’s called Muscle Mechanics Review.[/quote]

Sounds like he may be advocating a pause before the concentric to minimize any accumulated momentum from the stretch.

90

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!![/quote]

How does this not violate the law of reciprocal inhibition? How can one flex the biceps while utilizing the triceps?

91

[quote]JSMaxwell wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

How does this not violate the law of reciprocal inhibition? How can one flex the biceps while utilizing the triceps?[/quote]

It’s called co-contraction. Try it. It certainly work. Sometimes trying to be booksmart isn’t the way to get results in the real world. Heck, powerlifters have been bench pressing using co-contraction for decades!

92

[quote]ADvanced TS wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
ADvanced TS wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.

Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).

I think it helped that

  1. I was able to see myself in the mirror.
  2. After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

Coach,

I keep coming back to the same fundamental question:

If the goal is max force and a quick turnaround, why the need to ever go heavy?

If you can produce the same or more force by going faster with lighter weight, wouldn’t it be counter-intuitive to go heavier if your max force (mass x acceleration) is actually decreasing?

I may be overlooking a key variable, but either way a clarification would help me alot. Thanks

AD

Check out a thread in the Alpha cell by GluteusGigantis, he wrote a mini-article revolving around this exact question. It’s called Muscle Mechanics Review.

Sounds like he may be advocating a pause before the concentric to minimize any accumulated momentum from the stretch.[/quote]

Ultimately insignificant differences in execution preference, IMO.

93

CT, I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but here is the problem I’m having when trying to execute the perfect rep. Focusing on speed on the turnaround (from eccentric to concentric) is wreaking havoc on my joints, especially my elbows. The pain is significant enough to where it interferes with my next scheduled workout. Is this an indication of an underlying problem I should be worried about?

94

Hey Thibs, do you think this is good turn around speed at the bottom of incline bench

95

[quote]super saiyan wrote:
CT, I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but here is the problem I’m having when trying to execute the perfect rep. Focusing on speed on the turnaround (from eccentric to concentric) is wreaking havoc on my joints, especially my elbows. The pain is significant enough to where it interferes with my next scheduled workout. Is this an indication of an underlying problem I should be worried about?[/quote]

Didn’t I answer this one in another thread?

96

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
super saiyan wrote:
CT, I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but here is the problem I’m having when trying to execute the perfect rep. Focusing on speed on the turnaround (from eccentric to concentric) is wreaking havoc on my joints, especially my elbows. The pain is significant enough to where it interferes with my next scheduled workout. Is this an indication of an underlying problem I should be worried about?

Didn’t I answer this one in another thread?[/quote]

Haha. Yeah, I actually posted this one first. You hadn’t responded to this thread in a while so I put it in a more recent one. Thanks for the answer BTW.

97

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!![/quote]

Damn CT, whenever I think I’ve “mastered” the perfect rep I suddenly become more doubtful about my own intensity and execution.

98

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

DO NOT let gravity take over. You much always be in control of the weight. That last 3rd is done with the antagonist muscles (eg.g back and biceps for bench press) pulling the weight down with the agonist still contracting.

…

During the lowering phase you are not going slow on purpose BUT you must flex the biceps so hard that you must utilize your triceps to bring the bar down, which will make the movement somewhat slow. And you release the triceps when switching to the concentric, which will kinda be like releasing the parking break while the car wheels are spinning and the motor reving at 6000 RPM!!!

[/quote]

Even when close to max?
In other words, did you use back and biceps @ 2.55 here: Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness ?

In case of squating or deadlifting, which are the antagonists to be used?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
super saiyan wrote:
CT, I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but here is the problem I’m having when trying to execute the perfect rep. Focusing on speed on the turnaround (from eccentric to concentric) is wreaking havoc on my joints, especially my elbows. The pain is significant enough to where it interferes with my next scheduled workout. Is this an indication of an underlying problem I should be worried about?

Didn’t I answer this one in another thread?[/quote]

Is there any link? I would also be interested to read the answer but don’t know the thread you are referring to…

thanks,

99

Something more,

Do you also use triceps at the curls here: (experimental_arm_workout)

?

100

It’s easy to see how flexing the antagonist works on bench, arm exercises etc, but I’m slightly confused on say pull ups, squats how this would actually be done?