[quote]jeezy91 wrote:
When using a program based on westside principles I often work up to a near 1 RM using 90-95% of my actual 1RM (Depending on how I feel a certain day my perceived 1RM may vary). I often find it very difficult to recover from the maximal effort workouts even with the use of the peri-workout nutrition protocol and Power Drive.
You mentioned in another topic (which i cannot locate as of now) that it may take up to 10 days for the CNS to fully recover when working with near maximal weights…with this in mind would it be more beneficial to ramp up until you reach around 80% of your 1RM at which point you would end the exercise?
Also would working with rep ranges of 3-5 (compared to 1-2) be any less taxing on the CNS given you would have to use a lower percentage of your estimated 1RM? Or would the added volume offset the difference?[/quote]
Not Thibs, but generally IME volume is easier to recover from than CNS fatigue. Muscles heal faster. This is one reason the 5/3/1 program works so well, and also the reason a lot of successful powerlifters work with triples most weeks and only hit new singles every other week or every 3rd week or so. You still hit heavy weights, but it’s not limit weights.
This was one of the hardest things for me to “get” when I was training strictly WSB. I used the traditional 4 day template for years with success, but eventually reached a point where it wasn’t working for me…which was mostly because I was hitting singles week in and week out. Following a long period of stagnation I finally got hit over the head with the fact that I needed to stay away from limit weights every week.
Aragorn,
I know exactly what you mean. I have had some great strength and lean mass gains while following the WSB template, but what got me to this point is not necessarily going to take me to where I would like to be in terms of strength/size.
It sounds like incorporating the perfect rep into the 5/3/1 program would be the way to go. Not to mention the deload week after each 5/3/1 cycle would help aid recovery and gains.
CT,
Not sure if I’m trying this technique the right way… Can I get your feedback?
Today, I did some experimenting with accelerating from the stretched position, trying to quicken turnaround time.
I was doing an alternating set of barbell curls and standing barbell presses, in sets of 5 reps. I did a controlled descent, almost 2 seconds and at the last 1/3 of the descent, I let gravity bring down the weight along with actually pulling it. When I changed direction for the ascent, it felt as though I was starting my push of an object while it was in a free-fall state.
With the presses, I could feel my lats when I pulled the weight toward me. With the curls it was more difficult to feel the antagonist. So I tried contracting the triceps slightly at the very end of the descent.
Finally, I have to say that each rep felt a bit too easy, less of a grind across a full range of motion. The first 1/3 of the ascent seemed like less work than the last 2/3. But since I was ramping up the weight, the last set felt very challenging; it compared to the feeling of a low-rep lift which requires natural acceleration, like a power clean.
CT (or anyone else), does that seem correct or problematic to you?
[quote]harmony72 wrote:
Am I wrong to say that you should never be able to lift as much weight performing the rep this was as opposed to the “regular” way?[/quote]
Completely wrong. Several people on this thread have already reported PRs from lifting this way.
[quote]Brian Smith wrote:
CT,
Not sure if I’m trying this technique the right way… Can I get your feedback?
Today, I did some experimenting with accelerating from the stretched position, trying to quicken turnaround time.
I was doing an alternating set of barbell curls and standing barbell presses, in sets of 5 reps. I did a controlled descent, almost 2 seconds and at the last 1/3 of the descent, I let gravity bring down the weight along with actually pulling it. When I changed direction for the ascent, it felt as though I was starting my push of an object while it was in a free-fall state.
With the presses, I could feel my lats when I pulled the weight toward me. With the curls it was more difficult to feel the antagonist. So I tried contracting the triceps slightly at the very end of the descent.
Finally, I have to say that each rep felt a bit too easy, less of a grind across a full range of motion. The first 1/3 of the ascent seemed like less work than the last 2/3. But since I was ramping up the weight, the last set felt very challenging; it compared to the feeling of a low-rep lift which requires natural acceleration, like a power clean.
CT (or anyone else), does that seem correct or problematic to you?
Thanks,
Brian[/quote]
DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT let gravity take over. You much always be in control of the weight. That last 3rd is done with the antagonist muscles (eg.g back and biceps for bench press) pulling the weight down with the agonist still contracting.
Let me see if I can get this right using the bench as an example…
Eccentric: The weight descends in a controlled fashion but accelerated as you approach your chest. But don’t bounce off the chest.
Turn Around: These last few accelerated inches in the eccentric add to the eccentric/concentric coupling. You perform this turnaround as quickly as possible.
Concentric: Continue exploding upward until you complete the full repetition.
End Point: At the end of the Concentric you PULL down to begin another rep.
Key Point: Stay in control of the weight. Unregulated explosiveness could harm the joints.
Am I getting this right? This takes an EXTREME mind/muscle connection. I tried this with bench a few days ago and the difficult part it seems is knowing when to turn-around before you end up bouncing the damn bar off the chest. I tried more explosive reps in this fashion for my last two workouts and the DOMS is unreal. It’s quite a learning experience with EACH exercise. The squat in particular. I’ve always descended slowely then tried to exccelerate up. While trying to descend under control, accelerate, turn-around, explode up I notice I’m able to lift more weight for more reps, but the last few inches of the eccentric and the first few inches of the concentric are a little hairy as far as form goes…but probably due to lacking experience under the bar. I also come to a complete stop after each rep of the squat instead of explosively dropping back down…baby steps…
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
harmony72 wrote:
Am I wrong to say that you should never be able to lift as much weight performing the rep this was as opposed to the “regular” way?
Completely wrong. Several people on this thread have already reported PRs from lifting this way.[/quote]
This is true in my case… I’m increasing every 1-2 workouts…
I was wondering though… I’ve been using these methods since you made mention of them … and, with minimal supplementation (bcaa, leucine, whey) I still feel great throughout the day (I do have a little fatigue accumlated at the end of the week, but nothing crazy) If I’m not experiencing CNS fatigue here under these circumstances, would it be safe to assess that I’m doing something wrong (or not enough of)??
The “Concept” of the “Perfect Rep” seems clear for stuff like Bench, Pullup, Curl, Dip, Legcurl etc.
QUESTION:
But what du you suggest btw. what are your “cues” if you teach someone to do the “perfect rep” for Squat, Deadlift, Split Squat and stuff like that!?
Stuff where i Cant “Pull” myself back while in the excentric.
[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
Coach,
When you compared Nate, Stu, and AC’s twitch reps vs. dead start pressing, how high were the pins set above the chest?
I am curious as I’d like to experiment on myself to see where I am on the spectrum to adequately determine which techniques will work best for me.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
timmcbride00 wrote:
Coach,
When you compared Nate, Stu, and AC’s twitch reps vs. dead start pressing, how high were the pins set above the chest?
I am curious as I’d like to experiment on myself to see where I am on the spectrum to adequately determine which techniques will work best for me.
Thanks
Around 4-6"[/quote]
Thanks for the reply Coach.
I’ve been pin pressing with them about 5 inches off and I find that I am at least 15 lbs stronger on pin pressing. So like AC, I probably should spend more time with twitch reps, plyo drills and explosive movements.
Since you’ve given the information on perfect reps, i’ve been trying to lift that way with my 5/3/1 program, and in the third workout while doing chest, even without any activation (my gym doesn’t have the gum ball) i’ve had one of the best workouts in my experience without any supplements… Now I truly believe the way i try to lift by your methods, although i cannot do it perfectly yet, is far superior then any type of training i’ve had before. Thanks CT for sharing your wisdom
Since you’ve given the information on perfect reps, i’ve been trying to lift that way with my 5/3/1 program, and in the third workout while doing chest, even without any activation (my gym doesn’t have the gum ball) i’ve had one of the best workouts in my experience without any supplements… Now I truly believe the way i try to lift by your methods, although i cannot do it perfectly yet, is far superior then any type of training i’ve had before. Thanks CT for sharing your wisdom :)[/quote]
Good to hear! As I mention, mastering the rep and autoregulation will make any program more effective.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
timmcbride00 wrote:
Coach,
When you compared Nate, Stu, and AC’s twitch reps vs. dead start pressing, how high were the pins set above the chest?
I am curious as I’d like to experiment on myself to see where I am on the spectrum to adequately determine which techniques will work best for me.
Thanks
Around 4-6"[/quote]
Coach,
I want to start incorporating the presses from a dead start into my workouts; however, I am unsure of a few things.
Should I treat them as mini clusters, meaning take 10 seconds rest between each rep to allow the muscle to be fully relaxed again before beginning the next rep?
Or is it better to perform the required number of reps with just enough rest to relax the muscle before beginning the next rep (ie </= 1 second).
in terms of ‘the perfect rep’ usage, it looks to be something that should be applied across the board as it seems to help all goals i.e. strength, hypertrophy… would you say this is correct?
when performing the bench for example, i find it hard to push as fast as i can with weights at about 60-75% of my max as i feel i need to decclerate as soon as i start the push!
also, is there any negatives from pushing from pins quite close to your chest when you have a shoulder problem?
“Powerlifters have been lifting like this for years and they all control the eccentric (in fact they must pause on the chest). The way I have people learn this concept is to lower a weight down to around 4” from the chest and hold that position while contracting/squeezing the back."
→ Thibs, is this a technique to better learn the “perfect rep”? Then from the 4" position, pull the bar closer to the chest with the antagonist muscle (back in this case), then explode on the concentric for a fast turnover?
This might help, because today while doing incline barbell bench and db bench, I found with the barbell I hit the chest several times because trying to pull too much/fast with the back. And on the dumbbell bench press, I found I actually had too much of a stretch and was pulling the dumbells too low before the turnaround took place.
Would this technique you mentioned above help me to learn the “perfect rep” quicker? or any other recommendations?
I tried it today and it definitely felt different than usual, both throughout the workout, at the end and some time after. I think I got the closest to doing it right (i.e. got about 10% of it right…) on the lying leg curl and found it the most difficult on the squat, with the first one being the simplest and the second the most difficult exercise today (in terms of technique). That got me thinking - would you consider the perfect rep to be an inherent part of the proper execution of a lift and therefore something that should be worked on from day 1, or should the proper movement pattern (depth, lean, etc. in the case of the squat) be practiced until it’s rock solid (I don’t consider mine to be that yet, plus I’ve been doing front squats for the last to months and only switched back to back squats today), followed by the practice of the rapid turnaround?
I’m not saying I got perfect reps, but I’m pretty sure I’m getting close. It’s been almost 48 hours since I did preacher curls and my biceps are still sore. MY back too from pullups.
Observations from the curls:
The first time I tried, I did feel like I was more dropping the weight. This time it was more controlled eccentric, sort of accelerating near the end and trying to turn around as fast as possible before my forearms came in contact with the rest of the pad (I was using the angled preacher curl pad, not vertical).
I think it helped that
I was able to see myself in the mirror.
After reading all these threads about activation, perfect rep, stretch reflex, etc. I went back and watched CTs “experimental Arm workout” video. You really look at this video differently after reading all this information.
