The Pursuit of Mythical Gains

Training Training Logs
1443

Miss Em:

My apologies. When I wrote “vast majority” I was referring to the public, not counselors. I’m not sure I have accurately conveyed my respect for you. Your depth and breadth of knowledge, combined with your empathy, blows me away.

I have had the opportunity to work with many counselors, and all of them have been a blessing to me in one way or another, including the one that fired me for not being committed to therapy about seven years ago. One of the best that I worked with was trained in Inner Family Systems and that work was profound. I didn’t realize it at the time, but it set the stage for my recovery.

My most recent experience with counselors was at rehab. Most of the counselors were young, and I doubt any of them were in recovery. I’m sure it’s an entry level type job where new grads go to get experience. Despite their lack of worldly wisdom, they were all caring and proficient in their jobs. Running groups for a bunch of addicts, most of them on legals, is challenging, to say the least. They did a good job.

That being said, I think former addicts would be the best counselors for addicts. But that doesn’t mean counselors that aren’t in recovery are ineffective. I’ve been seeing my counselor for five years and while I’ve relapsed often, she has been great comfort to me. So, to clarify, I do not have a dim view of your peers - I have the utmost respect for them.

I’ve had similar experiences. Not necessarily vapid counselors, but ones that were not as well read on my particular issues as I. Recently I was referred to a psychiatrist to determine my fitness to be in a classroom - he was unfamiliar with Complex PTSD, which I found shocking. I realize it’s not a part of the current DSM, but there is a wealth of information on it as a subset of PTSD. Virtually all of my counselors at rehab were aware of it and knowledgeable. I think it’s difficult to be well versed in all areas, and of course, would expect myself to be intimately familiar with my own issues, but CPTSD is kind of a biggy.

This is why I teach. I’m trying to rescue my younger self from the distractions that have limited my performance. This is why I will probably go into some type of recovery support position when I retire in a few years. And yes, I do want to be a hero because giving someone their life back is a great gift.

I would encourage you to reconsider pursuit of your LADC credential. I understand the reticence, but don’t think you need to cultivate the hardness you fear (and I think it’s a valid concern). One of the things I am learning is that you can’t save people. They have to save themselves. You can support them in that role without being hard. People have to get tired of their own bullshit (bottom) before they can change. I know you know this, and don’t mean to patronize, but it bears repeating.

I feel you!

The description of your clientele sounds like my roster of students. One of my kids got shot in the neck three weeks ago. A former student was murdered last week. A large percentage of my kids are on meds, adderall and xanax, both prescribed and otherwise. I wanted to teach literature, have an MA in English and an MFA in Creative Writing, am a published author, and I’ve learned that the most important thing I can teach is how to be rather than to do, to sit still in silence for three minutes, to love yourself. Certainly not what I signed up for.

I know that I pushed back in the woo woo thread, but recognize now that I was in victim mentality. My apologies. What I really want you to take from this post is that you needn’t be defensive. I feel comfortable pushing back with you and being open. That may be a function of my own issues with boundaries, or the lack thereof, but it’s also demonstrative of how comfortable I am with you due to your knowledge and professionalism (and the fact you posted the pic of greenboy, lol).

I’m not really jaded. I do have too much of an ego, but am working hard to remedy that. I should also work on being more clear in my message, that the vast majority of the public is naive about addiction, not counselors. But, I think, because I am an addict, I’m defensive too.

Thank you so much for taking the time to engage! I really appreciate your wit and wisdom.

1444

Glad to have you back Myth!

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1445

Ha! I was coming back to say much of the same stuff after mulling it over during treadmill time, AND I also had a guy to talk about as proof that SA stuff supported by MH counseling is important. Actual proof! lol

Mostly what I wanted to say was that I hope you hear me as passionate and dedicated, not angry or dismissive of your views and experiences. I’ve always liked reading your posts about your journey, whether about woo-woo or your recovery and counseling.

Oh god, me too.

I have all sorts of exposure as it is, I just want to manage that I’m not on a list of people who allow you to check off a box for your suboxone program or probation/parole. I don’t like chasing people around, I want full engagement; someone who WANTS to be there with me and who is at least trying to be honest. If the doc I used to work with who dues suboxone refers someone to me I’m happy to take it because I know he’s chosen me as a good fit (so probably a bright, really hopeful patient, the kind who eventually goes to college to save others). But I don’t want to be in the SA “field.” A lot of my colleagues locally won’t take kids - I do, but I won’t let my caseload be overwhelmed by them and I won’t take kids who haven’t asked (or seem enthused) about coming. Like the substance abuse, if I allowed it my entire day would be kids whose schools and/or parents want them to behave differently.

We don’t have enough therapists (or LADCs) where I am and I’m in the very fortunate position of having strong and diverse referrals that allow to be a little choosy. Kids, addicts, criminals… all fine, but I want them to want to be there.

1446

If not, it’s a complete waste of time. I’ll say it again, you have to be tired of your own bullshit in order to change. That’s bottom to me. There are high bottoms, and low bottoms. I’m a professional making a good living, but I was smoking crack and shooting heroin and drinking heavily. I still have a good job, a roof over my head, a nice car, a family that loves and supports me. That’s, I guess, a high bottom. I was tired of my bullshit. I lied to my therapist, told her I was abstinent, then stopped at the store and bought a twelve pack on the way home. That’s an addict.

We lie.

Unless someone is committed to change, it won’t happen. So, you’re smart. Take the referrals that fit you. Don’t deal with people on parole or probation or other legals, unless they are tired of their bullshit.

I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail. That’s me. I think we are all addicts - tv, food, sugar, alcohol, drugs, shopping. I don’t think it’s just substance abuse. So, I think you are in that field - finding ways to strip down our lives to the point that we realize enough is enough, and we all have enough. Destroying the ego and recognizing our true purpose - service to others.

I do, I do. I’d like to go on a long rant about holding space, creating a container, but you already get that. Again, huge respect for you.

To me, this is high praise. Thank you.

1447

Oh shit, I would not have guessed that you’d been dealing with things at that level. I’m really sorry.

See, that’s why I said “at least trying to be honest.” People lie to me regularly. Sometimes I can tell, sometimes not. But if they’re there because they’re intrinsically motivated - tired of their own bullshit - letting go of the dishonesty is part of the process.

Many people need the opposite. They lack ego and are already stripped down. The task then is to build them, with my positive regard, but more importantly with their own over time.

I fucking love my job.

Oh, I meant to express my shock over the psychiatrist! Complex trauma, developmental trauma, or the DSM V’s decision to go with “PTSD, Chronic” to represent complex trauma…call it whatever, but be aware that all of these terms are in play and that they are in play for a reason! Was the guy 100 years old, or just incompetent?

1448

My life, my choices, I own it.

Addicts lie. It’s what we do. Period. Sobriety is being honest, credible, and reliable. Addicts lie.

Humbly disagree, but think it’s semantics. I think they lack self esteem and prop themselves up with ego. I know that when I let go of what others think of me, I got peace. When I have no ego, I don’t care what others think and can be at ease with myself.

I know. I met with a psychologist first, she was younger and maternal, very nice, familiar with CPTSD, made all of the hmm sounds. Then the Psychiatrist came in and slammed me, tried to catch me lying, was a total dick. That was in June. Still haven’t heard the results from my district. Guess I’m not a danger because I am in the classroom.

I got 913’s, referred, because of absences. Kind of an oxymoron - I’d been absent so they wanted to see if I was okay to be in the classroom.

Whatev.

He was maybe fifty, black slacks and black turtleneck, know it all fuck that didn’t know what CPTSD was, lol.

Challenged me to a drug test, I was cool. Thought he was going to catch me. Really a dick.

1449

Not just addicts. Anyone in the throes of compulsive behavior. My agoraphobic, for example, will do the same thing with her eyes that the eating disordered folks and addicts do, which I honestly can’t describe. It’s not breaking eye contact, it’s not even movement…just something I can see in their eyes for a second before they shutter them and deliver the avoidant response. Almost dissociated-looking. And these are the people TRYING to be honest. It looks not entirely conscious to me. They’re lying to themselves.

Going to have to humbly disagree right back. I encounter women who’ve been mistreated since always, and the term we use to describe their aspect is “victimized.” They’re people who won’t even lift their arms to block punches anymore, emotionally speaking. I saw more of them working with kids, because of course there’s stuff going on at home for the kids pushed into therapy by the schools or protective services. So often the kid was my client, but the mom might have been my change target. And then there are smart, capable people of both sexes who can’t see themselves that way and are overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy. I see a lot of these.

I can see why you’d see something different - addicts have layers of protection, even if they’re incapable of self-love. I see people who trust and believe their abusers and just keep trying to do better or understand what’s wrong with them. No protections. But it may just be semantics, sometimes it’s hard to tell.

Sounds really therapeutic, lol.

1450

Hey, man. How are you?

1451

I’m good, thanks. Working on showing up every day, will get back to the gym soon.

Spending a lot of time with my kids, which is great.

I’m here almost every day, lurking.

Dealing with a stalker, which isn’t cool at all.

Thanks for asking, it really means a lot to me!

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1452

Divine Miss Em:

My apologies. I meant to respond to this but I ended up living, lol. As usual, love your response, your emotional intelligence, your writing. Thanks for weighing in.

This is truth, especially lying to themselves. I would argue that those folks are addicts. I have a very broad description of addict - anyone that uses something to escape feeling uncomfortable emotions. It can be candy, shopping, gambling, sex, TV, drugs, alcohol, etc…

I believe that at some level we are all addicts. Of course, binge watching an HBO series is not that detrimental, it’s an addiction. I also believe that all addictions are traced to the lost self. But, that is another rant.

Ripe subject. When we stop seeing ourselves as victims we begin to take control of our recovery. I know I ranted at you in the woo woo thread about my victimization. Changing the narrative to self identify as a survivor is empowering.

Really insightful and valid. I wanted to teach English, but I find myself teaching coping skills. The more I meditate in class and focus on life issues, the more kids come to me with issues - and the issues are usually parent related.

Key insight. With my students, they feel disempowered by helicopter parents, or not heard.

Appreciate what I take as empathy for my situation. Sarcasm is always difficult in text, but I think I get it.

I’m trying to unpack this because it’s very dense with respect to pathology. Addicts do have layers of protection, but they’re lies and behaviors. Peeling back those layers is key to curing the addiction.

Confused by the pronoun them - addicts or abusers - antecedent issues, lol. I think you mean the victim trying to figure out what is wrong with themselves. Why did this happen to me, what did I do wrong, etc…And that comes back to forgiving self and loving self.

If it’s about the abuser, there is no figuring that out. I think victims have to let go of figuring it out and recognize that they have control of their own recovery.

Tempted to go on a long rant about my recent rehab experience, recent abusive relationship, my descent into drug use, blah blah blah, but will save it for later.

Thanks for writing!

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1453

This is even more poignant today.

Not sure you know this but you remind me very much of two people with whom I am close - my boss, and my college best friend.

They’re both hairy motherfuckers, and both very literate. Like you.

Thanks again!

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1454

@The_Myth, I can’t reconcile these statements,

And I think maybe I’m simply misunderstanding you. To not cause further confusion, I want to emphasise that by,

I mean “do you ever find yourself unemphatic, or unable to comprehend, addict-behaviour without having to actively remind yourself of what it is like to be in that state?”

I’d imagine having lived with addiction through 40 years that your default mode would be emphaticness, and that at most you’d occasionally be pulled out of that state.

The reason I asked was: I myself have found that I’ll regress into a state of “not understanding” sometimes and that this seems to be a consequence of being further removed from my own struggles that I had in the past.

I.e., when I myself was actively unwell, then when presented with the behaviour of someone who was also struggling, all of their behaviour was readily contextualised without any conscious effort on my part. Now though, I sometimes have to remind myself of what life is like at those stages. Now, I occasionally have the initial response of “Oh, no, why would you…?” And then I take a breath, re-align myself, and it instead becomes “Of course you would”.

And it is here that I believe that my confusion is simply me paying the price for not posing the question without a clear context, and that you meant: that you have to be mindful to recognize addict behaviour in yourself, as that was your default mode for so long and that during that time you did not actively question said behaviour (or just accepted it). Because if that is the case, everything you wrote makes sense to me.

So, in the context of everything I’ve written, could you please let me know if your meaning and understanding of the question were as I described in the previous paragraph rather than the ones preceding it?

1455

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I’m not sure I understand your point, but I will answer as best I can.

My default is addict thought process. By that I mean cutting corners and trying to slide. I hope that being mindful of this thought process I can substitute other behavior before it becomes a problem. Being aware (mindful) is the key. Sobriety isn’t the same as abstinence. You can be clean but still think like an addict.

I should clarify. I use addict as a very broad term - it can mean alcohol, drugs, gambling, shopping, sex, etc…We are all addicts to some degree.

I think you mean not having empathy, and no. In fact I have greater empathy for those suffering from addict behavior and very much want to help them.

Part of that is that I am not further removed from that state, as you mention. I struggle with addiction every day. And, as you mention, I get it when I see others engaging in addict behavior. I’m not to the point that I am frustrated with others, I really get it. I consider myself an empath, or a highly sensitive person. Empaths feel the emotions of others more strongly than most, or they’re just sensitive pussies. Either way, I empathize very strongly with others and sometimes that leads me to be less tolerant with others that are not as sensitive. Kind of a conundrum, no?

Exactly. Sorry, I should have just scrolled down to this. Really, it was about viewing the world from the eyes of a victim. Which is just ridiculous and shows how sick people can be. I’m a predator in many situations, but saw myself as a victim of life. Woe is me, look how fucked up my life has been, etc…Well fuck it, I’ll just cheat and steal and make up for it. Pretty soon your morals degrade to the point that nothing is off limits.

I should be clear that I am pretty hard on myself. I’ve done well in all of my careers, in graduate school, and I make a good living. I don’t “cheat and steal” literally, but I relaxed my morals. And that causes dissonance that is easily resolved through addiction - coffee, sugar, alcohol, drugs, sex.

Bruce Lipton talks about neuroplasticity. The brain, as he describes it, is like a record. The grooves have been carved in for forty years and that is my habit. I can change those grooves, but it takes establishing new habits over a period of time - rituals and routines.

So, yes, your paragraph sums it up accurately, lol.

TL;DR - Yes, your penultimate paragraph sums it up.

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1456

Now I follow, thank you for replying. Happy to understand what you meant.

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1457

I’ve never heard anyone frame it that well before, but this is usually what I mean when I talk about conditioning/reconditioning behaviour. I’ll remember the analogy, thank you.

1458

Tommy Rosen has a website called Recovery 2.0.

He has “talks” on Mondays. He frequently has guests, like Bruce Lipton, David Wolfe, Gabor Mate, all really insightful. That’s where I got the Lipton information.

I spent a week with Tommy at a retreat in North Carolina. He’s the schizzel.

1459

I’m really glad it helped, or at least clicked.

He had just passed away a few days before I posted it, so he was on my mind a bit more (after first really getting on my radar when I watched Going Home on Netflix a year or two prior.)

His well-known quote, “We’re all just walking each other home”, is something I try to remember in crowds, in traffic, or whenever I start to feel like “this person” or “these people” are a stressor. Not always easy to do, but the effort’s the thing.

If you ever wander back onto The Island here, we need to hit a diner or grab coffee.

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1460

It did click. I’m a big fan of his, read Be Here Now and several other books about the LSD experiments in the fifties. One anecdote that sticks with me is when he gave a yogi in Nepal the equivalent of nine hits of acid and it had no effect on the yogi. He said, the medicine is good. Meditation is better.

I watched Going Home as well. It was interesting because when I was getting my MFA I wrote a screenplay titled Going Home.

It’s all about connection.

I’m still here, live in Hicksville. Would love to get @BrickHead, @The_Mighty_Stu, @robstein back together to lift at Bev’s and eat Japanese food. Whoever else is on the island as well.

I was thinking about leaving, have a much more lucrative offer on the west coast, but my kids are here. Diner or coffee would be great.

I’m going to do this Zoom meeting on Saturday if anyone is interested. A men’s group just to yak and hang out. We’ll do a meditation and then talk. Forty minutes unless I get a lot of interest, then I’ll have to upgrade my Zoom account.

Thanks again Chris!

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1461

Ah, I thought you were still doing the nomadic thing.

Rob moved to Texas last year, but I’m sure a meetup with the NY crew (classics and newbies) can be figured out somehow. Probably worth bumping the old thread or whipping up a new one.

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1462

I did that for a summer, it was cool. But I’m still on the south shore eating Indian, lol. Going back to the RV in a few years, likely for good.

I’m in.