I’m curious as to how powerlifters get stronger without changing bodyweight.
Before you jump in and say “neural adaptations” consider the following:
-having trained for only 7 years, I had 98% motor unit recruitment in my quads (VL). I have a hard time believing that an elite powerlifter is going to add recruitment for strength
-stimulation frequency is a non-issue once you reach 50Hz
-increased myofibrillar density must come at the expense of some other mass
[quote]David Barr wrote:
I’m curious as to how powerlifters get stronger without changing bodyweight.
Before you jump in and say “neural adaptations” consider the following:
-having trained for only 7 years, I had 98% motor unit recruitment in my quads (VL). I have a hard time believing that an elite powerlifter is going to add recruitment for strength
-stimulation frequency is a non-issue once you reach 50Hz
-increased myofibrillar density must come at the expense of some other mass
-increased coordination only goes so far
Looking forward to the replies![/quote]
I’m actually contemplating a whole article on this, but to get to it briefly.
I’d question that 98% figure. It’s my understanding that, by best estimates, in voluntary conditions, elite lifters with years of training experience can only voluntarily attain ~90% of their absolute strength (involuntary).
You need to consider intra and intermuscular coordination. Your example simply noted the one of the four muscles of the quadriceps, so you’re only addressing the intramuscular issues (overall fiber recruitment, rate coding/firing frequency, and summation potential). Intermuscular coordination is huge as well; this includes synchronization, sequencing of firing patterns, inhibition (antagonist), and disinhibition (agonists).
As far as “increased myofibrillar density must come at the expense of some other mass,” who is to say that one cannot gain lean body mass and lose fat mass simultaneously? It occurs in AAS-supported environments, so why would it not occur as a lifter became more experienced and presumably more intelligent, therefore enabling him to train and eat more effectively?
Motor learning is just the tip of the iceberg; patterns ingraining is a whole other ballgame. Check out this study I posted the other night:
Bennett S, Davids K. The manipulation of vision during the powerlift squat: exploring the boundaries of the specificity of learning hypothesis. Res Q Exerc Sport. 1995 Sep;66(3):210-8.
The available information for controlling a multidegree-of-freedom sport action was manipulated in 2 experiments. In the first, 10 intermediate lifters were participants; for the second, 8 skilled and 8 less skilled lifters were observed. Three single repetitions of a powerlift squat were performed under 3 vision conditions (i.e., full, ambient, no vision). The less skilled and intermediate lifters’ technical performance decreased significantly with the removal of visual information. There was no detrimental effect in the skilled group. Despite the differing information constraints, skilled lifters exhibited a high level of positioning accuracy and timing consistency across conditions. These data fail to support the theoretical predictions of the specificity of learning hypothesis. The differences between the task constraints in this study and those in manual aiming investigations may represent a boundary to the current propositions of the specificity of learning hypothesis.
Technical mastery is huge.
Improved equipment, and improved familiarity with given equipment.
Improved knowledge of how to limit the difference between training maximum and competition maximum. In other words, you learn how to psych yourself up for competition.
Some lifters may gain tissue weight but drop water weight in order to make weight and therefore stay in a given weight class.
PS - Not all “strength” is created equal. One may be proficient with with reactive strength, but struggle with explosive strength or limit strength. Different types of strengths are important at different points in the movement, so one can see significant progress by training specific to the sticking point or strength-shortcoming.
The guys have good points so far. A lot of powerlifters do stay in the same weight class while shifting body composition toward an improvement in LBM and a decrease in fat mass, so that’s certainly something to consider.
Changes in lifting technique also make a big difference as well as learning how to get the most out of the lifting equipment.
Task habituation is also something to consider. Basically the body becomes super efficient at the competitive lifts and is better to make better use of the strength it has. This is similar to a track athlete developing running economy.
We must also make a distinction between meet lifts and gym lifts. If we only consider meet lifts, it is quite possible for a lifter to improve his total simply by becoming used to the stress of competition.
lets say you’re performing at 98% efficiency, is there any possibility that your body can become even more efficient?
I understand that the theory is that you only have so many nerves in the body, but isn’t there a possibility that there can be nerve growth/duplication, and couldn’t there also be a “hypertrophy effect” going on in the stimulation signal? Maybe your body becomes able to UP the amps/volts thereby makin the muscles contract with more force.
It would be interesting the actual voltage/amperage/power that a powerlifter or olympic lifter produces at the nerves, and that which an average joe makes (if this is even possible).
I know he’s sort of persona non-grata 'round here these days, but Pavel Tsatsouline writes primarliy on how to achieve high levels of relative strength using high intensity, low volume, high frequency splits.
You may want to check out his stuff…just don’t ask him to write an article about it.
This is interesting. My wife and her friend put mirrors in our basement about two years ago - don’t ask. Anyway, recently I noticed that I can’t look at myself in the mirror when I lift - and it’s not just because I’m an ugly bastard. This is especially true in lifts that require skill such as the squat and especially power cleans and power snatches. I’ve literally closed my eyes when doing heavy power cleans. Does this mean that my skill level is relatively good or does it not mean anything at all?
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Could anything be throw in about the ability of your hamstrings to relax at the same speed your quads are being recruited to fire?[/quote]
That would fall into this category (inhibition of the antagonist):
[quote]Robert Monti wrote:
I know he’s sort of persona non-grata 'round here these days, but Pavel Tsatsouline writes primarliy on how to achieve high levels of relative strength using high intensity, low volume, high frequency splits.
You may want to check out his stuff…just don’t ask him to write an article about it.[/quote]
Despite Pavel’s public statement that he is adamantly against panty sniffing, in reality - oh yeah, he’s a sniffer. Right before a lift, he secretly takes a wiff, which produces a profound state of arousal and allows him to lift tremendous weight. So the secret is panty sniffing.
Okay, sorry about that - I couldn’t resist. But this does bring up a good point. Pavel’s favorite lift is the deadlift but that’s because he is built for it. Look at pictures of him and you’ll see that he’s all legs and arms. By his own admission, he can’t squat and hates the squat.
Here’s another interesting point. I know of several people, one guy personally, who have done the program in Power to the People, which uses the DL as the main lift and focuses on building neural strength. They built up respectable poundages in the DL on the program. The guy I know pulled well into the 400s. Here’s the interesting part - the same guy who could DL around 450 struggle to squat 250. Yes, he was fairly tall at around 6’3", and I realize that the DL and squat are different lifts despite the fact that the muscles used overlap, but still - a 200 lb. difference? The point I’m making is that is it possible that this guy developed neural efficiency solely in the DL that really didn’t carry over to the squat?
One thing I learned a long time ago is that a squat can build a deadlift, but a deadlift can’t build a squat. (I know some will disagree with this, but in a lot of cases it’s the truth).
I think that people who AREN’T built to squat but who improve their squatting #'s typically see a good carryover to their pull, as long as they are still doing the necessary assistance exercises.
However, people that are natural squatters typically won’t get much (if any) carryover from increased squat numbers. I know CT has discussed this in the past with regards to himself. As well, more pulling typically doesn’t help their squat or pull. They need more specific exercises, but I don’t want to get into this too much as EC and I are working a piece that covers limb length and PL training. Sorry for the tease!
C’mon Cressy, a bit of a break for the undergrads. We like to pretend we can hang with the big guys. Thanks for allowing me my 5 minutes of fame!
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
Could anything be throw in about the ability of your hamstrings to relax at the same speed your quads are being recruited to fire?
That would fall into this category (inhibition of the antagonist):
You need to consider intra and intermuscular coordination. Your example simply noted the one of the four muscles of the quadriceps, so you’re only addressing the intramuscular issues (overall fiber recruitment, rate coding/firing frequency, and summation potential). Intermuscular coordination is huge as well; this includes synchronization, sequencing of firing patterns, inhibition (antagonist), and disinhibition (agonists).
[/quote]
the issue with learning your gear is definitely a much bigger issue than people make it out to be. When you use it often and learn the groove ur numbers just keep rising. for example, from the advice of a training partner to do more triples in my bench shirt i have been only tripling for the past 4 weeks. I’ve gained about 5 lb.s of bodyweight in this period but I don’t know how much “stronger” i ould have actually become. anyways now the shirt feels natural to me and i have just hit a 60 lb. pr triple in 4 weeks!