I’m a med student and there was a short discussion in one of my classes about bodybuilders who were taking steroids. One guy apparently was around some bodybuilders when he was a kid and some of them died in their forties. The instructor knew this chick who was on them hardcore and she died at 43.
You know how sometimes crap like this can creep in and make you second guess what you know? I had to remind myself of that HBO Real Sports episode on steroids where they guy talked about Healthy Adult Male USE and NOT ABUSE.
Steroids are potentially harmful but at the same time can be relatively safe.
Where’s the line between use and abuse? I realize this is a fairly broad and general question but I’m interested in what people’s educated and experienced opinion is.
[quote]Radcon wrote:
I’m a med student and there was a short discussion in one of my classes about bodybuilders who were taking steroids. One guy apparently was around some bodybuilders when he was a kid and some of them died in their forties. The instructor knew this chick who was on them hardcore and she died at 43.
You know how sometimes crap like this can creep in and make you second guess what you know? I had to remind myself of that HBO Real Sports episode on steroids where they guy talked about Healthy Adult Male USE and NOT ABUSE.
Steroids are potentially harmful but at the same time can be relatively safe.
Where’s the line between use and abuse? I realize this is a fairly broad and general question but I’m interested in what people’s educated and experienced opinion is.[/quote]
Most of the people who die from “steroid abuse” don’t die from that at all. In fact, I’d wager that none of them do. It is the other aspects of hardcore bb lifestyle, the diuretics and dehydration, the extreme calorie intake and yo-yo dieting, that lead to most of these early deaths (and there really aren’t that many). Along with other factors that would have lead to their deaths with or without the introduction of AAS.
It’s a media-driven myth that steroids themselves kill people.
It doesn’t matter what sport you compete in. If you are in high level competitive athletics, it is usually quite hard-core and not good for you.
You think competing in the triathlon is any better for your health then bodybuilding? or Boxing or football?
We don’t participate in sports at that level of competition because it is good for our health, we do it because we enjoy the competition, and pushing the limits
Bodybuilding is just one of many sports that utilizes ‘extreme’ measures, and performace enhancing drugs.
the only difference is in our sport it isn’t considered cheating to use the performace aids.
I’d like to see one cause of death report that actually labels it as a direct to/caused by steroid use/abuse. Even when abuse occurs, I’ve never heard of a death. Like Cortes said, it’s the other shit that goes with a bodybuilding lifestyle… esp. when you’re a pro and your income rides on you being able to severely dehydrated and at such low bodyfat levels.
Although, in my personal opinion regarding abuse. I’d have to say that comes at some point when the side effects start far outweighing the desired results. Like I said, it comes at some point past that, but it’s pretty hard to be anymore specific than that.
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
You think competing in the triathlon is any better for your health then bodybuilding? or Boxing or football?[/quote]
I used to compete in Triathlons religiously. As well as 20k races. I’ve never felt closer to sudden death than those crucial training weeks in between either of the two where you have to maintain your body at peak performance.
During my time on AAS, having quit those sports, I’ve never felt healthier.
As a guy entering his 40’s (soon) I have to say that most important is the diet you have followed with the steroid use and the diuretic drugs that compound the problem.
Heavy use of saturated fats, heavy use of meat, eggs and cream were the reason most golden age bodybuilders had heart problems. Steroids just compounded what was already a bad case scenario.
Have any of you read Vince Gironda’s “Get Big” drink? Eggs, Whole Cream and Protein poweder plus more whole milk. And these bodybuilders lived off that diet for years and years while juicing.
Now the diuretics, painkillers and rec drugs just add insult to the problem.
But not just bodybuilders
My best firend just had his 2nd heart attack. He is 36. Is he a bodybuilder? NO…Is he an Powerlifter? NO…Athlete? NO…he is simply a manager who smokes, drinks and stays up late every night for the last 15 years of his life. And has never even used the stairs to get to his office.
I do think that there are risks, but IMO there are other vices far more dangerous that society thinks are prefectly “normal”.
The only thing I would add to what was already said is that one would cross to the line to abuse while either being uneducated or just using much more than necessary.
You’re asking (mostly) steroid users to differentiate between use and abuse? You might as well ask an alcoholic if he uses or abuses alcohol, or a drug user the same. Alcoholics argue that alcohol in moderation is good for you. I’ve read for years where one to two drinks a day for men, and one drink a day for women is supposed to be healthy.
Wouldn’t the non-believers argue that drinking every day makes you an alcoholic? Some say that when something begins to negatively affect your life, socially, sexually, relationship-wise, etc, then the status of it changes from using to abusing. I’ve verbally snapped at my wife and kids while on and off gear. Does that make using steroids lean one way or another? I don’t know.
So, all that rhetoric means I don’t know if I can honestly answer that question. I think what you’ll find is that most of us here have researched enough about what we’re taking to believe that A) The risks aren’t what the media would have you believe, or B) It is worth the small risks that are associated with use, because we try to minimize those risks by education and judicious use. Or a combination thereof.
is it when you are doing more harm than good to your body (ie benifits of being in better shape being outweighed by the side effects like BPH or elevated BP)?
is it the point where you are dependent on juice to function properly (ie long term use turning to abuse)?
is it the point where you are putting extreme stress on your body and risking health problems (ie extreme weight gain and dieting, liver or kidney problems, etc)?
It’s tought to say…personally I think that abuse falls into the last category.
Personally I also think that the issues are with abuse of many drugs (diuretics, rec drugs, etc)…everything is ok in moderation but when many things are taken to the extreme then problems start to happen.
The line between use and abuse. If you ask a doctor he would probably say that anything over HRT levels would be abuse. I obviuosly would disagree with that. I think that abuse can be classified in 3 seperate areas.
Someone would randomly goes on drugs without any planning or prep. Simply taking whatever he can get his hands on and not going through proper PCT to recover. Poor stacks and wasted gear for no other reason than to be on something.
Someone would ignores side effects and does little to avoid them. The old “get big or die trying” theory. An educated user would be aware of the potential sides and would go through the proper steps to avoid and monitor those sides. This is probably how those previously mentioned athletes died. It wasn’t the steroids that killed them, it was the uncontrolled heart disease.
Those who refuse to ever come off. With exception to HRT, these people fear the thought of coming off so much that they stay on for years and years at a time. I must add that they are usually at far above HRT levels the entire time. When they do cycle they use an amazing amount of gear to get the desired effects.
I feel that many of us use a rational amount of AAS and with proper cycles, PCT and routine health checks are able to avoid most serious side effects. The more extreme cases are the ones that are brought to our attention by the media.
I like what everyone has had to say in this thread.
To me, drawing the line between use and abuse is a lot like determining whether or not someone has reached their so-called natural potential. It can be hard to tell unless they’re way off to one side or the other. Even then it can be hard to tell.
What’s the line between dedication and obsession? In a college psychology class we were told that line was crossed when the endeavor became detrimental to ones health or social behavior. So if a person decides they should get some sleep so they can train in the morning instead of going out drinking, they’re obsessed? I don’t really think so.
In my area, people have blamed steroids for the death of one person, and several situations where people have had major health issues. This is in maybe the last ten years or so. In all cases, steroids were just one small piece of the pie which basically amounted to a very clearly unhealthy lifestyle. Smoking, drinking, various other recreational drugs, fighting in bars, waking up in jail… and the list goes on. Hell, the juice probably helped keep them alive, lol.
I’m going to take the conservative approach. I would call it abuse anytime somebody is using that hasn’t yet reached their genetic potential. If you are in your teens, there is no way you have reached your natural potential, so any teenager on steroids is abusing them. In your twenties, it’s arguable, but unlikely that you have reached your potential. Long-time trainers in their late 20’s or beyond, that have almost undoubtedly reached their genetic potential, that have done all of their research, and are using for the sole purpose of desiring to exceed their natural potential can claim use.
Basically, anyone that has not done all of their research and is using as a shortcut is abusing.
Well, I would define abuse as not paying attention to what steroids are doing to your body. Not tailoring your diet, steroid use, time off, and PCT to prevent problems with blood lipids, blood pressure, liver, etc
Many very good points! Sometimes it’s easy to forget that professional bodybuilding is an unhealthy thing since they’re pictures are all over “health” magazines.
It’s interesting that Contrl, you feel like you are more healthy using AAS.
I’ve gotten the impression in my steroid research that it is very possible to use steroids in a way that is not harmful, not necessarily healthy but not going to cause any problems that a person would really notice. Similar to someone drinking a couple cans of soda a day, not good for them but if they are a relativly healthy person they probably won’t notice any problems from it.
To balance my steroid research I’ve looked for information from people speaking against AAS but it is so annoying because in all the cases I’ve found they’re very ignorant and linking steroids to outlandish things. The information is extremely shallow and they tend to just be emotionally charged rants. Some of the cases are tragic but it’s hard to feel sorry for someone when they are brainwashing people because they need a scapegoat.
To balance my steroid research I’ve looked for information from people speaking against AAS but it is so annoying because in all the cases I’ve found they’re very ignorant and linking steroids to outlandish things. The information is extremely shallow and they tend to just be emotionally charged rants. Some of the cases are tragic but it’s hard to feel sorry for someone when they are brainwashing people because they need a scapegoat.[/quote]
I agree with what you say.
IMHO you cross the line from use to abuse when the negative effects outweigh the positive effects. And in no way could I compare AAS to alcohol, I mean what is so good about drinking that you would have to do it on regular basis.
Just MO
Rad, I think you point out the exact reason I think AAS should be legal and available to patients through regular medical care. AAS have such profound potential for men’s health benefits, particularly when used wisely. Unwise, foolish, uneducated use is dangerous, and I would say constitutes abuse.
I say, make AAS available to men in a primary care setting (ie. family practice) and through normal regulated pharmacies. Vitals, blood lipids, and other potentially harmful side effects can be monitored for and managed. The purity of the chemicals is guaranteed. And men can benefit from hormone manipulation the way women have enjoyed for 40 years (birth control and HRT in post-menopausal women).
Of course, I realize that Pamela Anderson is more likely to deliver me a pizza tonight than to see AAS available at the local doctor’s office…
[quote]koots wrote:
Rad, I think you point out the exact reason I think AAS should be legal and available to patients through regular medical care. AAS have such profound potential for men’s health benefits, particularly when used wisely. Unwise, foolish, uneducated use is dangerous, and I would say constitutes abuse.
I say, make AAS available to men in a primary care setting (ie. family practice) and through normal regulated pharmacies. Vitals, blood lipids, and other potentially harmful side effects can be monitored for and managed. The purity of the chemicals is guaranteed. And men can benefit from hormone manipulation the way women have enjoyed for 40 years (birth control and HRT in post-menopausal women).
Of course, I realize that Pamela Anderson is more likely to deliver me a pizza tonight than to see AAS available at the local doctor’s office…
[/quote]
Umm…AAS IS legal and may be prescribed by a physician. What are you talking about…? There is a resistance to it, and your general practioner’s not just going to hand it to you, but they certainly have the authority to prescribe it.
[quote]sawadeekrob wrote:
As a guy entering his 40’s (soon) I have to say that most important is the diet you have followed with the steroid use and the diuretic drugs that compound the problem.
Heavy use of saturated fats, heavy use of meat, eggs and cream were the reason most golden age bodybuilders had heart problems. Steroids just compounded what was already a bad case scenario.
Have any of you read Vince Gironda’s “Get Big” drink? Eggs, Whole Cream and Protein poweder plus more whole milk. And these bodybuilders lived off that diet for years and years while juicing.
[/quote]
Vince did not like milk as it has too many carbohydrates. He did make it to 79 and never had a heart attack to my knowledge. As society moves toward a processed grain, sugar, pasta, potatoes, and rice diet we are unhealthier than we were 30 years ago and a lot of this has been because the unfounded notion that animal fats are linked to heart disease. I know, this is not the place for this particular discussion, but don’t be too quick to dismiss Vince Gironda’s diet.
And yes I love cream, maybe I’m just addicted to steak and cream
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
It doesn’t matter what sport you compete in. If you are in high level competitive athletics, it is usually quite hard-core and not good for you.
You think competing in the triathlon is any better for your health then bodybuilding? or Boxing or football?
We don’t participate in sports at that level of competition because it is good for our health, we do it because we enjoy the competition, and pushing the limits
Bodybuilding is just one of many sports that utilizes ‘extreme’ measures, and performace enhancing drugs.
the only difference is in our sport it isn’t considered cheating to use the performace aids.[/quote]
TEll me about it. I’ve got plates and screwes all over my body from looking across the matt at some other MFer and pushing it til it broke. But hey, I’m 46 and I get IDed once in a while so it can’t be all that bad. not like smoking or doing crystal meth or some other useless drug.
