The Fitness New Age

Off Topic
241

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
They also know that he is on the sauce by looking at the dude. It just wouldn’t be smart to say he is on this and that, but he doesn’t have to come out and say he is clean.
[/quote]

This is a slippery slope…because according to those same people ANYONE with ANY amount of size on them is also “on the sauce by looking at the dude”…which is why this act affects serious weight lifters as a whole as well.[/quote]

I do agree that some people are saying “that” guy is on roids or “this” guy is on roids when they may or may not be. But that Kai Muscle dude is on some shit. And even if I personally gave him a drug test and he passed it at the time I would still firmly believe that he is on some shit. And for him to claim he is natural is just weak to me, but I am saying that here because of the topic of the thread. I wouldn’t and wont go find a video and post a comment about it. Because I am not a hater

242

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Species wrote:

People are against cheating. If you take something that gives you an advantage, and that something is against the rules, it’s cheating. The public doesn’t like that. That’s a human reaction, not a media created reaction. [/quote]

How are the Hodge twins, CT fletcher or Kali Muscle cheating?

That is a mass media buzz word and nothing more at this point.

[/quote]

Ah, the great straw man builder. Prof X.

I said cheating, among other things. People don’t like frauds. If you claim you’re natural, and you’re not, you’re a fraud - especially if you’re a public personality. If you’re a regular moe, you’re just a liar.

If you put yourself in the public eye (and these people do) the undesired
criticism comes with the desired praise.

243

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
They also know that he is on the sauce by looking at the dude. It just wouldn’t be smart to say he is on this and that, but he doesn’t have to come out and say he is clean.
[/quote]

This is a slippery slope…because according to those same people ANYONE with ANY amount of size on them is also “on the sauce by looking at the dude”…which is why this act affects serious weight lifters as a whole as well.[/quote]

It’s not a slippery slope. We can calculate his BMI and compare it to the tremendous data set we have of known enhanced BBs and natural BBs. Given this population in and of itself are the “freaks” (the successful guys), any argument that CC is just some random genetic mutant goes out the window. So, take his stats, do his BMI and compare away. Let me know what you come up with and if you actually believe he’s natural.

Or maybe he’s just one of those guys that played basketball in your hood…where everyone was stacked and jacked :slight_smile:

244

I just want to be clear. I am not against people who use PED’s, and I understand that taking them doesn’t make you turn into Arnold. It takes work. But, they do work, and they work really good at what they are designed to do. And to accomplish a physique while taking them and then claim to be natural is (like a different posted already said) fraud. Or like I say bullshit, lies, or weak in my opinion.

245

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was always told to set long term goals that are extreme…because even if you do fall short, you will still be far beyond most.

That is why someone “unenhanced” may look to someone who has used steroids.

Because this isn’t about trying to BE someone else.

It is about finding the things that motivate you to push yourself to be more and more.

The only reason someone would avoid ever using someone enhanced as a source of inspiration is if they have some sort of bias already in place.

Otherwise they would know that inspiration is never about becoming someone else.[/quote]

This constitutes your opinion and mindset.

So did you start a thread to pontificate about the world according to YOU, and the whole exercise is rhetorical, or were you ever open to understanding why some people don’t support people that lie about drug use?

246

[quote]Species wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Species wrote:

People are against cheating. If you take something that gives you an advantage, and that something is against the rules, it’s cheating. The public doesn’t like that. That’s a human reaction, not a media created reaction. [/quote]

How are the Hodge twins, CT fletcher or Kali Muscle cheating?

That is a mass media buzz word and nothing more at this point.

[/quote]

Ah, the great straw man builder. Prof X. [/quote]

No strawman at all. That is what the entire thread is about.

Then we differ on opinion…because it is clear as day to me that steroids are ILLEGAL so why would I expect anyone to tell the truth openly about their own use?

Not to mention the fact that you do NOT know CT Fletcher is taking anything…and people who accuse the Hodge Twins do NOT know they are taking anything…so how do you have proof of “fraud”?

247

I know the feeling man. I used to be able to olympic squat 300 kilos and 2 board bench 250 kilos back when I was a sumo wrestler in college.

But then I I lost all that fake “permabulker” strength i couldnt even bench the 20 kg bar. I turned out I had less than 135 pounds of “real muscle” under what was actually fat that was magically helping me move weight earlier.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
You perhaps haven’t been following me closely through the years considering I’ve done a bit more than those numbers in the past: 495 for a single in squat and deadlift and 345 for a single in the bench, all done when I was a morbidly obese 240# pound permabulker in the gym who thought nothing in life was more important than the gym! [/quote]

Nah man, I was 100% serious. But now that you’ve found employment, that ship has sailed.

[quote]5) You have annoyed me, and I suspect either you’re a confrontational prick for the fun of it, or a bitch who pokes at my “CV” (possibly my profession and degrees that I rarely bring up) or physique out of jealousy.
[/quote]

Its ok, you’ll always be inspirational for me.

[quote]6) The people I’ve trained IN PERSON with and who are actual close friends from T-mag know I don’t talk shit and am the first one to say I am far from special.
[/quote]

248

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

The way I see it is what happened with baseball opened the general population’s understanding of steroids.[/quote]

I disagree. The general public has no understanding of steroids at all. They simply hagve been told they are “bad” and “cheating” so they parrot it.

I seriously doubt the average person waddling through Walmart can show me any understanding of steroids even if they watch baseball every day of their lives.

All they know now is that they have been used by some athletes…that is all.

[quote]
People like us knew that there were many different types of steroids and how you use them can alter their affects. So the baseball scandal happens and people that thought if you took steroids you would look like a bodybuilder, now can see with their own eyes that you can be taking steroids and still look like Rafael Palmeiro. You probably agree that the baseball scandal at least showed the general population that taking steroids will not make you look like a pro bodybuilder[/quote]

We just had a poster claim that steroids are MAGIC and transform 120lbs skinny dudes into 200lbs behemoths with little to no significant extra training.

It would seem people aren’t falling in line the way you just wrote.[/quote]

You are now using lies to back up your stance.

I said that I have seen guys who were 120 pounds after highs cool train naturally for a few years and add about 8-10 pounds a year for a few years, jump on gear, train using the same high volume splits, use the same dedication and go from 120lbs to about 145ish within a few years training naturally to going from 145 to over 200 lbs in another few years.

If they trained the same, ate the same using a calorie surplus, still went to the pub at the weekends then was it determination or steroids that gave them their physique?

That was what I was saying. If you have to lie to back up your stance whatever.

No one is saying you can sit on the couch and eat vegan treats and gain 50 pounds in a couple years. Stop being the alex jones of bodybuilding and erecting straw men to knock down and expose the real truth maaaaaaan.

249

[quote]Species wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was always told to set long term goals that are extreme…because even if you do fall short, you will still be far beyond most.

That is why someone “unenhanced” may look to someone who has used steroids.

Because this isn’t about trying to BE someone else.

It is about finding the things that motivate you to push yourself to be more and more.

The only reason someone would avoid ever using someone enhanced as a source of inspiration is if they have some sort of bias already in place.

Otherwise they would know that inspiration is never about becoming someone else.[/quote]

This constitutes your opinion and mindset. [/quote]

Wasn’t your claim that it is “illogical” for a natural to look up to an enhanced person just an opinion?

Several people just logged in and stated that this is a false mindset because more goes into who you look up to than steroid use.

You have explained why you think the way you do.

I also just showed you what is incorrect about that mindset.

That is what a discussion is…an exchange of ideas.

If your own ides do not hold, then you may need to be willing to change your own as well.

250

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

No one is saying you can sit on the couch and eat vegan treats and gain 50 pounds in a couple years. Stop being the alex jones of bodybuilding and erecting straw men to knock down and expose the real truth maaaaaaan.[/quote]

Didn’t you discuss a study where the people using a placebo gained nearly as much muscle as those who used steroids and did NO added exercise?

Didn’t you make the point that you can gain muscle with no added work from steroids to the tune of several pounds of muscle?

251

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

No one is saying you can sit on the couch and eat vegan treats and gain 50 pounds in a couple years. Stop being the alex jones of bodybuilding and erecting straw men to knock down and expose the real truth maaaaaaan.[/quote]

Didn’t you discuss a study where the people using a placebo gained nearly as much muscle as those who used steroids and did NO added exercise?

Didn’t you make the point that you can gain muscle with no added work from steroids to the tune of several pounds of muscle?[/quote]

Yes, but that is scientific fact that merely taking testosterone will indeed add muscle. I was pointing out that fact because you said simply taking gear won’t make you bigger, because that has been disproved by science.

It might only make you 10 pounds bigger to sit around and play COD while juicing, but you will get bigger.

Did I say people got to be big guys without working out, eating over maintenance and progressively overloading? No, I said the opposite.

I said the difference between natural guys who work out, eat over maintenance and progressively overload and enhanced guys who train, eat over maintenance and progressively overload is not dedication or hard work. It is gear.

Gear is what separates the 180 pound natural bodybuilder 100% dedicated to his craft to the 220 pound bodybuilder 100% dedicated to his craft. What then separates the 210 pound meat head with big ass traps and thick physique with ronnie coleman and jay cutler is elite genetics, more gear and some other cool shit.

252

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

The way I see it is what happened with baseball opened the general population’s understanding of steroids.[/quote]

I disagree. The general public has no understanding of steroids at all. They simply hagve been told they are “bad” and “cheating” so they parrot it.

I seriously doubt the average person waddling through Walmart can show me any understanding of steroids even if they watch baseball every day of their lives.

All they know now is that they have been used by some athletes…that is all.

[quote]
People like us knew that there were many different types of steroids and how you use them can alter their affects. So the baseball scandal happens and people that thought if you took steroids you would look like a bodybuilder, now can see with their own eyes that you can be taking steroids and still look like Rafael Palmeiro. You probably agree that the baseball scandal at least showed the general population that taking steroids will not make you look like a pro bodybuilder[/quote]

We just had a poster claim that steroids are MAGIC and transform 120lbs skinny dudes into 200lbs behemoths with little to no significant extra training.

It would seem people aren’t falling in line the way you just wrote.[/quote]

You are now using lies to back up your stance.

I said that I have seen guys who were 120 pounds after highs cool train naturally for a few years and add about 8-10 pounds a year for a few years, jump on gear, train using the same high volume splits, use the same dedication and go from 120lbs to about 145ish within a few years training naturally to going from 145 to over 200 lbs in another few years.

If they trained the same, ate the same using a calorie surplus, still went to the pub at the weekends then was it determination or steroids that gave them their physique?

That was what I was saying. If you have to lie to back up your stance whatever.

No one is saying you can sit on the couch and eat vegan treats and gain 50 pounds in a couple years. Stop being the alex jones of bodybuilding and erecting straw men to knock down and expose the real truth maaaaaaan.[/quote]

I have seen similar examples many times over in my life. This happens all over the country all the time. I can think of several old friends of mine that “got on” and blew up real quick. I must have missed this but I would hope no one is saying that steroids don’t help a person make drastic improvements to their physique when combined with a decent weight training program?

253

[quote]Species wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Species wrote:
It’s illogical to believe that the “average gym rat” (presumably unenhanced) would look to an enhanced BB for “inspiration”. The enhanced BB’s physique is unattainable to the unenhanced and that’s a fact. It’s like claiming a flat chested woman should look to some bolt-on, breast implanted porn star for “inspiration” regarding her small boobs. It’s a non-sequitur.

[/quote]

I’ve thought about making that analogy myself and it’s an unfair one. The porn star example is more aptly paired with the guy who chooses pec implants over working out. There is more to inspiration than trying to attain the unattainable. It’s just as much of a non-sequitur for me to eat my way to a heart bypass in order to look like CT Fletcher or to hold someone with a completely opposite physical type to my own as an ideal. Natty or not, I’m never going to achieve that look.

All you can do is make the best of what you’ve got - but that doesn’t mean you can’t find inspiration in the unattainable: an artist can be inspired by nature but that doesn’t mean he wants to be a tree.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. When we’re truly inspired to emulate, we usually reasonably believe we can do that too. Man may be “inspired” by nature, but he certainly does not set out to emulate and achieve what nature achieved - only perhaps the human expression of that. It matters not that the analogy is imperfect, but I don’t think it’s a non-sequitur. [/quote]

It is b/c inspiration doesn’t always equal emulation, which was the thrust of my last post. At some point everybody forges their own path.

I just don’t see what ‘full disclosure’ would accomplish beyond giving people who’ve already made up their minds the satisfaction of knowing they were right ( that’s why I avoid discussing who is ‘on’ and who isn’t). The critics would not be silenced by this, not when the genreal view of drug use in any endeavor is synonymous with cheating.

The bodybuilding community have a different view, of course. The credit given to people who 'fess up to being assisted would still be eclipsed by negative BS.

254

The best take I have seen on bodybuilding is this documentary. They openly discuss steroids and why he took them. This guy had great genetics, looked great natural and then took gear to get to the next level, which was to win national shows.

Now I understand some peoples genetics will allow them to build muscle at the same rate as if I was blasting test and while I might be able to get to 200 pounds using gear and training consistently, I will never look like a dedicated hard working genetically gifted guy using the same gear. I am not suggesting hard work is not essential tog et where you want to go in life.

I am saying all the hard work and dedication in the world would not give Kali his build if drugs were not also utilised. That is all.

255
256

A person can be on a workout program and stop making any real muscle gains=stalled out. Then, that person can add a good stack of steroids to the mix and continue on their workout program making no changes to their diet and start to put on muscle. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

257

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Species wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Species wrote:

People are against cheating. If you take something that gives you an advantage, and that something is against the rules, it’s cheating. The public doesn’t like that. That’s a human reaction, not a media created reaction. [/quote]

How are the Hodge twins, CT fletcher or Kali Muscle cheating?

That is a mass media buzz word and nothing more at this point.

[/quote]

Ah, the great straw man builder. Prof X. [/quote]

No strawman at all. That is what the entire thread is about.

Then we differ on opinion…because it is clear as day to me that steroids are ILLEGAL so why would I expect anyone to tell the truth openly about their own use?

Not to mention the fact that you do NOT know CT Fletcher is taking anything…and people who accuse the Hodge Twins do NOT know they are taking anything…so how do you have proof of “fraud”?[/quote]

I can agree with you that admission of taking AAS, especially for a public persona, can be problematic legally. However, no one is forcing these guys to claim their natural either. See how that works both ways?

I don’t have to “know” that CT is taking anything, or has taken anything. As I said, we can calculate his BMI and estimate his BF % and compare it to the pretty large data set we have of natural and unnatural BBs. Given that the data set constitutes our “best”, CT is either a mutant from another planet, or he’s very unlikely to be natural. It’s really pretty simple.

258

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

Yes, but that is scientific fact that merely taking testosterone will indeed add muscle. I was pointing out that fact because you said simply taking gear won’t make you bigger, because that has been disproved by science.

[/quote]

It’s a scientific fact that just eating a caloric surplus will add muscle. A wealth of studies have been done on overfeeding.

259

[quote]mbdix wrote:
A person can be on a workout program and stop making any real muscle gains=stalled out. Then, that person can add a good stack of steroids to the mix and continue on their workout program making no changes to their diet and start to put on muscle. Does anyone disagree with this statement?[/quote]

Not anyone who knows how roids work.

260

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Pj92x wrote:

No one is saying you can sit on the couch and eat vegan treats and gain 50 pounds in a couple years. Stop being the alex jones of bodybuilding and erecting straw men to knock down and expose the real truth maaaaaaan.[/quote]

Didn’t you discuss a study where the people using a placebo gained nearly as much muscle as those who used steroids and did NO added exercise?

Didn’t you make the point that you can gain muscle with no added work from steroids to the tune of several pounds of muscle?[/quote]

Yes, but that is scientific fact that merely taking testosterone will indeed add muscle.

[/quote]

You stated that the people in the study who used a placebo gained nearly as much as the steroid users…which means that study doesn’t show much at all.

I am a little worried that you would dismiss that significant detail when it undermines what you are trying to claim.

[quote]
I was pointing out that fact because you said simply taking gear won’t make you bigger, because that has been disproved by science.[/quote]

NO, actually we discussed someone looking very muscular…not any gain at all.

Then we disagree…because I know you can get to over 200lbs without using shit.

This has nothing to do with some vague concept of dedication and everything to do with genetics.

Yes, steroids allow more growth. They are not all that separates the natural trainer from the enhanced trainer.

Genetics is what does that.