Feminism doesn’t own every thought process that agrees with it though, and end beliefs can be derived from multiple origin points. Attaching feminism to any pro-female outlook isn’t an accurate assignment of responsibility.
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And yet they have the same outcome, strange.
Exactly. Was it in this thread that I recently said I’d have voted for any but a couple of the republican candidates against Hillary? Because feminism isn’t my primary concern, and I frankly feel that it has achieved all I need it to. So I guess not a concern at all. Should the political machine start pushing an anti-female agenda, I will presumably become more focused on it. I suppose it would be safe to say that it has my attention because of the abortion fight, but I have very mixed feelings about the issue, so don’t feel mobilized in any way. On the other hand, most Americans are for limited abortion rights (first trimester) and that the Supreme Court has made a decision that is in direct opposition to the wants of the American people disturbs me very much.
I feel the same way on the other side of the aisle when legislation is passed that most people don’t want. “Of the people, by the people, for the people?” No. Not anymore.
It seems very relevant to me. Do you share feminist beliefs? Do you want your daughter educated and well prepared for function in the public sphere, or will you train her for domestic life? (I don’t actually know if you have a daughter or not. I know you have kids, but that’s it. So hypothetical if appropriate.)
@BrickHead what about you?
Your direct suggestion was that feminism is the genesis of the belief that women should be allowed to vote and should not be drafted, among other things, as if feminism has an unhealthy stranglehold on society and is directing thought at large around female empowerment.
I largely disagree. Using your examples I personally do think women should be eligible for the draft, with a caveat they should be placed in roles they can accomplish, without watering down standards. Especially considering the size of potential enemies today. Let women work non-combat roles and free more men (and the occasional woman who can pass muster) to fight.
Voting is an inalienable right and I do see women as equal, not hapless creatures along for a ride through life. I want my wife and daughter to have a say in the politics shaping their existence, and furthermore I want my daughter to inherit (or sell) my business when the time comes and be her own legal entity in the process. I want her equality out of the love a father has for his child, not because an angry lesbian yelled it at me on TV.
I would say we’ve flown the coop on the workplace equity/diversity preferential treatment issue but I’m willing to bet it isn’t long-lived.
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She’ll be prepared for both. It’s a known thing that high earning women tend to “age” (not age related at all) themselves out of the dating market, and i have yet to reconcile my approach to parenting with this.
I want her to be happy and be equipped to forge her own future. I’d rather schooling NOT be the norm for women as i think it lends itself to lesser satisfaction in life, but that is just not the world we live in.
I think any discussion of feminism should be clear about which “wave” you’re referring to.
I have no problem with the kind of feminism that my 76 year-old aunt refers to when she brings it up. She’s talking about the social and policy changes that opened up the path for her to pursue anesthesiology during a time when few women did.
Women have had that path open for some time now. Modern fourth-wave feminists are a cancer on society. It is a completely different set of objectives, which ironically includes allowing creepy, disturbed guys into women’s locker rooms and giving up the Olympic spots of women in their early 20’s to dudes in their mid-40’s.
It also includes prioritizing these wild notions in early childhood education.
Feminism is no longer about the causes of decades past because all of the objectives have been achieved.
When I hear @EmilyQ or my aunt talk about feminism, I imagine she’s talking about this.
Not this.
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Well, i don’t think feminism actually supports trans ideology, but i think self-proclaimed feminists do, because SJW gonna SJW.
1st wave feminism (voting and martial rights) made sense, although i disagree with the idea of being able to vote without having to be drafted.
2nd wave feminism (workplace equality) really wasn’t needed at it was already mandated by law. Morons still believe that women earn .77 on the dollar for what men make, thanks to this era.
The flipside to this coin was the advent of birth control and destigmatization of generally slutty behavior. Which is still, to this day, called “empowerment” while mostly hurting young women.
3rd wave feminism was still somehow about the same thing that 2nd wave feminism was about. More complaining about inequalities that literally and legally did not exist at the time.
Also, higher bodycounts should be celebrated, not discouraged. Because women should be able to do whatever they want without consequences. Simps allowed this in the hopes it worked like Reagan’s trickle down economics. It did the opposite.
4th wave feminism was the MeToo movement which undermined the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
High bodycount is a GOOD thing! Abortion is celebrated, even at high numbers. Social media Qweens and Boss Bitches are the ideal. Tinder wrecks girls from 5-7/10 but it’s empowering so it’s okay.
Only wanting to sleep with the top 5% of men is totally sustainable and we should celebrate this behavior.
Male loneliness epidemic totally is not related to this.
Feminism today does nothing but hurt young women and isolate young men, under the false banner of female empowerment.
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Agreed. @Andrewgen_Receptors I’m not following your logic on how opposing women being drafted or in combat roles is a feminist belief?
I was always under the impression feminism, at least earlier waves of feminism, were about women being treated equally and having the same opportunities as men. How is opposing women doing certain things because of their biology feminism?
SCOTUS didn’t really do this though. They pushed the issue back to the states because Congress failed to codify abortion rights at the federal level.
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Rights without responsibilities is a core tenet of feminism.
Read: Only wanting equality when it benefits them.
That and most citizens don’t agree with abortion being funded by taxpayer dollars. Under Biden, we’re not only funding abortion in the US, we’ve expanded tax dollars to Planned Parenthood efforts OVERSEAS.
But putting the issue back to the lowest level of governance is oppression, in the eyes of feminists (because it’s forcing responsibility).
I think this is a core tenant of progressivism more so than feminism. It’s the socialist utopia after all.
I think you could argue not wanting women to serve in the armed forces is misogynistic or patriarchal just as easily.
I think we’re roughly the same age so you probably remember this, but every time this conversation comes up all I hear is Mia Ham singing anything you can do I can do better. We know that’s simply not true, but it’s the feminists that believe it is not conservatives.
Again, I don’t follow the logic here. For example, I’m generally opposed to women in combat roles because of biological reality. It’s not because of feminism.
At any rate, a very small percentage of men serve in the armed forces as it is. Do they have rights without responsibilities?
Is this not true for a lot of men and women, though?
I think it’s said to be oppressive because that riles up voters. The pro-choice side of the argument has always been significantly better at messaging than the pro-life side.
This is a human thing
A lot of your critiques of “x wave feminism” are valid, but are not unique to feminists.
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Of course it is. But men still have the responsibilities and women do not. Why? Because there is a lobby that pushes for only certain aspects of equality.
No, they actually have to temporatily give up many rights just to protect the rights of others. I do believe it is something like 10% of US citizens were enlisted FWIW, so it may not be as small a percentage as you think. Most are not in combat roles though.
In part, yes. The two have very similar ideologies but only one is aimed at relegating responsibilities to men only. They have been more successful than their progressive counterparts.
It’s just a gendered leg of the Victimhood Olympics.
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How so?
This is America!
Everyone is supposed to act in their own self interest.
Edit:
Self interest and hedonistism often do not align. Acting in their own self interest would deem feminism and progressivism obsolete.
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My mantra to synopsize modern America is that people don’t want freedom. They just want to be irresponsible.
Rational self interest flew the coop.
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I don’t think there is any practical distinction at this point. It is all wrapped together under the big tent of progressivism. Mainstream feminists, who absolutely do espouse radical leftwing gender theory, even have a pejorative term for women who aren’t on board, along with the gall to label them “radical”. TERF - Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists.
One notable TERF woman, who has actually done great things for other women, is Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling. You could also call her a feminist, but her ideas are by no means mainstream. Not anymore.
Modern feminism is so mainstream that you will find their ideas all over my local government. The word “gender” appears 87 times in my local school charter document. A law was just passed that allows minors to pursue hormone therapy without parental approval, along with a law that puts them on the hook for the medical costs.
#believeallwomen
Actual communists did make that argument, and almost a million women served in the Red Army, some in frontline combat roles. It contributed to western progressives’ idolization of communism in the post-war years.
I don’t think many modern American feminists are about to become snipers or tank gunners. Nor do I think they would be able to relocate thousands of factories on a short timescale and set up shop in a place like Siberia.
But our feminists aren’t like the feminists of the 1940’s. Our men aren’t like the men of the 1940’s either, thanks in no small part to the successes of modern feminism.
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Unless I’ve misinterpreting your points, your gripes with “x wave feminism” are:
- political pushing of policies that go against biology at the expense of all society
- hedonism
- the fractioning, burdening and weakening of society as the result of 1) and 2)
Those three are also true of “movements” like radical veganism, fat acceptance, social media “addiction” and the promotion of processed foods, all of which you are (rightfully) opposed to seemingly for the same reasons.
The intersectionality of support and opposition these “movements” are not a coincidence
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What do you mean by “the responsibilities”. For example, how many women are responsible for raising children because the father deserts his responsibility?
In my opinion, your generalization is so broad as to be meaningless.
Take WW2 as an example, men were “responsible” for fighting in Europe and the Pacific. Were women not “responsible” for maintaining the household while the men were away? Did women not add substantial support (Rosie the Riveter) to war fighters through factory work and other things?
I think women have had and continue to have a lot of responsibilities in every society not just ours. Being drafted (which I opposed for everyone) or serving in the military is only one way a person can be a responsible citizen.
My point is, are those that serve the only citizens that have earned their rights by fulfilling their responsibility as a citizen?
Maybe it’s 10% in total, but we have what 2m active duty personnel at any given time. That’s like half a percent of the population.
All I know is the women in my life just want to be treated equally and be independent if that’s their desire. I just don’t see this mentality outside of social media.
Exactly this.
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