The Davies Debate

Off Topic
281

[quote]slimjim wrote:
It’s the thread that never ends,
it goes on and on my friend,
somebody starting posting it not knowing what it was,
and we’ll continuing posting it forever just because,
it’s the thread that never ends…

I wasn’t going to look at this thread for another few days, but I’m compulsive by nature and couldn’t hold out any longer.

Since we’re drawing lines in the sand[that was sarcasm,] it looks like my side has slide down a slippery slope here of late.

Chris Aus that wasn’t fair, I don’t even want to get into a debate over accolades or accomplishments for respective coaches. I don’t know why that statement about Davies being more published was made. I did go back over one of your previous posts, and I see that I was misinterpreting what you were saying about the ladder drills. I thought you were advocating something else, but your point was valid. I really cannot comment without seeing an entire program, but maybe he has his athletes do ladders in an anaerobic fashion later on, and the aerobic nature he advocates for this is to build a repetitive link with the agility drills. That is, so that near the end of the game when they are tired, they are still able to perform near peak levels.

I don’t know if I’ll continue to be a part of this discussion since I really don’t know enough of Renegade training methodology, but if it keeps interesting, I’ll probably throw my 2 cents in…not that any of you want to hear it.

Again, I’ve only used one of Coach D’s programs, but one last note: The thing that Davies advocates that really goes to the core of who I am as an athlete, is his desire to acheive through hard work, as cliche as it sounds. I’m familiar with the literature on overtraining and I am by no means advocating it or even practicing it at this point, but when I started lifting, the overtraining info was still a few years off from getting mainstream and the first book I learned weightlifting from was Arnold’s encyclopedia. I did those two hour workouts and felt great when I got up the next morning barely able to walk. There is something to be said for striving to excell by outdoing, especially when it comes to competition and you know you’ll win because you’ve done more to get yourself there. I’m not trying to get all philisophical on you guys, but an athlete needs to know that he can dig deeper than the other guy and win, because he’s been to the edge of his threshold before and overcome it. One of you asked before what John brought to the table; if a coach can instill this mentallity in any gifted athlete, I’d say they’d done their job.[/quote]

Excellent points, although I dont know what I did that wasnt fair?

282

Hey Chris Aus: Marion Jones, Ben Johnson, Charlie Francis—STEROIDS! CHEATING!

283

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Hey Chris Aus: Marion Jones, Ben Johnson, Charlie Francis—STEROIDS! CHEATING!
[/quote]

Wow, nice come back…
What about all the other stuff though?

Ohhh and by the way

[quote]T: Working with top-level athletes, I assume you run into a lot of guys using steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. This would affect how you train them. So do you just ask if they?re using or what? How do coaches deal with this?

JD: First, I don?t know how other coaches deal with athletes who are “on.” I face many questions of performance-enhancing drugs. Any athlete that works with me understands that he needs to confide in me his full spectrum of supplementation. It?s imperative to do so because of the cyclical changes in their work capacity as well as the different side effects of certain drugs. Far too many football players listen to bodybuilders and assume they can use the same items without a negative impact. Of course, nothing is farther from the truth.[/quote]
whats that Davies athletes also take steroids ohhhhhhh my… How bout that???
Guess that means the whole “Davies wouldnt want to be associated with Ben cause Ben used steroids and that would scare off the soccer mums who are Davies main clientelle” theory is crap cause Davies is on record not caring if his athletes use steroids and tailoring his the programs to their drug induced needs…

He also did that ESPN magazine interview where he spoke of drug use. I didnt see it but he apparently admitted to being a user - but then again I didnt see it…

284

I don’t think you read that correctly. He said he had to tailor the programs, yes. But it’s not like he’s handing them out to his athletes like your guy.

Who’re you arguing with at this point? I read through whole pages of this that had nothing but posts from you. Is Francis paying you? Did Davies not pay you?
Full disclosure.

285

and I really like this example of truthful journalism.
I didn’t see it, don’t know what it said, but I think it said he killed 82 puppies so that’s what I’ll repeat.
What a jerk-off.

286

[quote] Far too many football players listen to bodybuilders and assume they can use the same items without a negative impact. Of course, nothing is farther from the truth.
[/quote]

sounds like he’s saying steroids have a negative impact for football players etc.
that what works for bodybuilders might not be so great for guys who actually have to use their bodies.

Stop picking and choosing every little thing to bolster this argument you’re having with yourself, okay?

287

Joe this is annoying and immature.
1)No im not being paid by any one.
2)I was honest about the magazine thing. I know for a fact that Davies was in it. I didnt see it though. But I was informed about it by a guy that has not yet lied to me that Davies admitted to drug use. I believed him but stated that I did not see it. How much more honest can i be. By making it public and stating I did not actually read it I also allowed it to be confirmed or denied by anyone else who was interested…
3) You can intepret that anyway you wish… Whether or not his opinion is that steroids have a negative impact is moot. The point is that he coaches drug using athletes.

288

My god Joe read what Chris is saying, he’s not getting anything for this, Charlie Francis isn’t paying him, and he’s not claiming Charlie is “his guy.” He’s just showing that Charlie has and has continued to bring much, much more to his and other athletes/strength coaches than Davies ever has. How many non Renegade affiliated coaches (i.e. their on his site writing articles) do you know that are listing things they got from Coach Davies? Now how many out there are talking about things they have picked up from Francis?

I’ve still seen no justicifcation from any of the “pro Davies” guys on this board as to some of his training methods…such as doing everything on swiss balls and indo boards, doing pullups at a construction site, and some of the other ridicolous things he does (one armed CLEANS anyone?). I’ll let Davies do the circus tricks, in the meantime I’ll be looking as usual for things I can get to help me enhance myself and my athletes.

289

The internet has some limitations and strengths.

Strengths are it is really very close to perfect free speech.

The limits are that people can say and claim anything.Sometimes it is best to stay the hell out of something between other people, even though it is fun to watch.

If you dislike Davies, great for whatever reason. Either try his programs and comment with your experiences, or shut the hell up. I have not tried his work for various reasons and have never met the man, so i would not express my opinion on the man or his work.

jmo
jack

290

JoeWeider,

You are clearly under the age of 20 and know nothing about top level athletes.

Almost every athlete is looking to win, by whatever means necessary, even the day after they look at the camera and tell kids (like you) not to do drugs.

291

"sounds like he’s saying steroids have a negative impact for football players etc.
that what works for bodybuilders might not be so great for guys who actually have to use their bodies. "

No, it sounds like he’s saying they need to use different drugs. Steroids are not going to have a negative impact on anyone’s performance.

292

Why don’t the athlete’s (professional and D1)who work with Davies speak out about how good he is? Defranco’s athletes can’t say enough about him. Poliquin’s athletes can’t say enough about him. Francis’ athletes (even under the threat of losing sponsorship money) speak out about him. I’ve never heard any big time athlete talk about Davies.

293

[quote]sammydon wrote:
JoeWeider,

You are clearly under the age of 20 and know nothing about top level athletes.

Almost every athlete is looking to win, by whatever means necessary, even the day after they look at the camera and tell kids (like you) not to do drugs. [/quote]

cute.
so…whenever you think you wanna score a cheap point or two you attack someone’s age?
Actually, no, I’m 34.
I know about as much about top level athletes as most people do–which is to say not all that much. Freely admitted.
Never tried to say I did.
What’s your excuse?

294

[quote]H factor wrote:
My god Joe read what Chris is saying, he’s not getting anything for this, Charlie Francis isn’t paying him, and he’s not claiming Charlie is “his guy.” He’s just showing that Charlie has and has continued to bring much, much more to his and other athletes/strength coaches than Davies ever has. How many non Renegade affiliated coaches (i.e. their on his site writing articles) do you know that are listing things they got from Coach Davies? Now how many out there are talking about things they have picked up from Francis?

I’ve still seen no justicifcation from any of the “pro Davies” guys on this board as to some of his training methods…such as doing everything on swiss balls and indo boards, doing pullups at a construction site, and some of the other ridicolous things he does (one armed CLEANS anyone?). I’ll let Davies do the circus tricks, in the meantime I’ll be looking as usual for things I can get to help me enhance myself and my athletes. [/quote]

one arm cleans=Highland Games throwing for height–for instance.
You guys are killing me. You’re so caught up in piss here piss there that you’ve stopped making sense and are just like my kitten chasing his tail–he wonders why it hurts when he bites it.
You need to stop, before you self destruct or something.

295

Uh, it was unfair because obviously they didn’t know what they were saying when they threw out the comparison of Davies being more published, respected, and emulated. Davies may garner more respect from the general public because Francis has been villanized by popular media for his involvement with Ben Johnson, but about everyone knows Francis paved the the way for a lot of break-through advances in track and field training, as well as other speed and strength-related sports.

296

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Uh, it was unfair because obviously they didn’t know what they were saying when they threw out the comparison of Davies being more published, respected, and emulated. Davies may garner more respect from the general public because Francis has been villanized by popular media for his involvement with Ben Johnson, but about everyone knows Francis paved the the way for a lot of break-through advances in track and field training, as well as other speed and strength-related sports.[/quote]

Okay fair enough. however i didnt know that when I rebutt something stupid that other people say I am being unfair…

Did you get my PM?

297

Wow, what an interesting book…er…thread this is. Anyway, briefly, I tend to agree with Francis and Chris’ backing of this subject as I respect ‘Chapter&verse’ rationale for any science. Just makes sense to have study back up. Add to that there are probably the Russians,Bompa, Charlie and maybe a few others as ‘The Top coaches’. Just like other disciplines. Many others, absent top clients, breakthrough programs or study results, are second-tier. Nothing wrong with that, you just have to qualify what you’re getting more thoroughly. Sort of like going for an operation; well, you want the best surgeon to do the job.
I will say this about John’s philosophy though. I like the overall systemic fitness he espouses. I don’t care if its classified as “overtraining”. The ‘run till you puke and dig deep’ mantra I think can be valuable for sure. As a training mode all the time? NO. But, at the end of a contest, when your entire body is tired, it certainly is a help, I think, to have the mental toughness to play hard till the end.
Lastly, I’m encouraged that at least we all train, even though with many different systems.

298

What exactly are the questions that supposedly “haven’t been answered” by the Coach Davies/Renegade advocates? Can I see them in a logical fashion?

Essentially, everybody that trains or works out on this forum IS doing well just to be training whether that be for bodybuilding, powerlifting, martial arts, fun, etc. That’s more than the majority of this highly obese population can say.

Let’s forget about this Francis vs. Davies “beef” which is about as silly as 50 cent vs. The Game. Which by the way was called a truce. That’s beside the point, but nonetheless proving a point that this is fruitless. It’s silly banter back and forth and not constructive or edifying to anybody.

One of my main points is this:

Most of the top strength and conditioning coaches in this field agree that some form of olympic lifting is one of the best ways to achieve many all around goals such as: improved strength, explosiveness, body awareness, they utilize the entire body versus isolation, target the all important “posterior chain” etc.

However, I’ve seen a lot of back and forth here basically over rep ranges and intensity levels (example: 80-90% of 1RM for 1-2 reps versus 30-60% of 1RM for 5 reps, etc) Isn’t this is a bad case of majoring on the minors? We are being too anal and not focusing on the big picture I think. Plus, I think we can all agree on the fact that using a variety of training tools (barbells, dumbells, sandbags, medicine balls, etc)and a variety of rep ranges w/a variety of tempos are beneficial to prevent stagnation regardless of your training goals.

I can quit poppin’ off at the jaws if you can too, but I just don’t like people trash talkin’ Coach Davies for no reason especially when the guy’s a class act and very giving.

299

[quote]H factor wrote:
My god Joe read what Chris is saying, he’s not getting anything for this, Charlie Francis isn’t paying him, and he’s not claiming Charlie is “his guy.” He’s just showing that Charlie has and has continued to bring much, much more to his and other athletes/strength coaches than Davies ever has. How many non Renegade affiliated coaches (i.e. their on his site writing articles) do you know that are listing things they got from Coach Davies? Now how many out there are talking about things they have picked up from Francis?

I’ve still seen no justicifcation from any of the “pro Davies” guys on this board as to some of his training methods…such as doing everything on swiss balls and indo boards, doing pullups at a construction site, and some of the other ridicolous things he does (one armed CLEANS anyone?). I’ll let Davies do the circus tricks, in the meantime I’ll be looking as usual for things I can get to help me enhance myself and my athletes. [/quote]

Doing weighted pullups with an xvest on gripping an awkward surface is ridiculous? Really? Hmmmm, I thought they were very beneficial? One armed cleans are silly? Really? I guess you are saying that Eugene Sandow is silly too? Do you even know who that is? Probably not. Exactly what do you do or look for that enhances yourself and “your athletes?” I’d LOVE to hear this!!! Fire away.

By the way, Coach Davies doesn’t do EVERYTHING on a swiss ball or indo board like you said. Next time,strive for more accurate statements.

300

Does anyone else find it peculiar that this thread is one of the longest you can find on T-Mag? Aren’t we supposed to be here discussing training, nutrition, and other T-Man oriented stuff?

I think 95% of the people on this site will agree that both CF and CD have some good training ideas. The rest of this is sorority-level BS. Are we on T-Mag or Inside Edition?

I will say one thing: the way I’ve been treated by CF’s website cronies when trying to order products, etc., is absolutely abysmal. If CF had such great character, you’d think he’d hire some people with a little tact.