Shame that reality doesn’t agree with you.
overtraining syndrome (or more currently called underperformance syndrome) and its associated over-reaching is a very real and repeatable effect. Over-reaching is also a handy part of supercompensation during training.
[oy. i know this is not a warmup article but a “prehab” article. i’ve already stated this twice.]
[i’m nit picking, i’m anal. fine. but the athlete should be warmed already if doing the chutes and ladders and hurdles and hip mobility work, so the swings and such is a waste of time with such little loading. and you misquoted me with the renegade quote. i got this directly from his article. here’s what he said:
“Prior to training, the Renegade athlete will use a diverse group of five drills: hip mobility drills using hurdles and bags, tumbling and body movement drills, foot patterning drills, simple weight movements, and rope skipping. Naturally, the first three sections are inappropriate and too complex to implement for the non-competitive athlete, although I have to admit, it sure would be fun to see the local gyms being inundated with members warming up with forward rolls and handstands. Too much for the old coach to dream of, so we better keep that stuff outside along with my trusty wheelbarrow (sniff, sniff).”
so yeah, your typical non-renegade won’t be doing this as written.]
[this is not what i’m asking enos. i’m asking the how much, not the why i know why. i’ve got the football book too.]
[the point is if one is going to mention terminology that his or her program uses from a certain training template, he or she should show how it’s implemented within the template. there’s no such thing here.]
[westside also uses alot of max effort work there bob. twice a week specifically.]
and someone who can do 150 pushups and you can only do say 40 pushups-isn’t that person stronger than you? Yes he is-strength endurance or not there are many many many MANY forms of strength not just your total in the big 3 lifts in powerlifting-
[i’m not touching this one with a ten foot pole]
what about your rotational strength?
Do you enhance that powerlifting? NO!
[and what does that have to do with this here discussion? take a look at many powerlifters logs as well as my own and you will see movements like landmines and russian twists. i even carry around a tractor trailer tire in the back of my truck and beat it with a sledgehammer from time to time. not to mention in my boxing training i hit the heavy bag once a week. how’s that for rotational strength? can we get back to the discussion at hand?]
What’s my point?
That you have to do a variety of things and don’t limit yourself.
[read above. you’d be surprised how diverse my training is when i’m not in meet preparation.]
Where does it fit best in a healthy athletes regimen? What a silly question? It’s prehab work for everybody not just injured or unhealthy people.
[then when would a healthy athlete or everday joe place this in his or her overall training plan? after a peaking phase? before a speed strength phase? where? and for how long?? and injured people aren’t going to be doing prehab work. they will be doing rehab work.]
What kind of strength is Coach D talking about in the article? explosive/endurance, strength endurance, speed strength, static strength, … need me to keep going?
[the article does no such thing. but if you want to continue spewing gobbledeeguck, feel free to keep going.]
One more time because you don’t seem to understand a very simple concept that drives the article-it’s a very generalized article designed for athletes or even everyday joes living life, to help PREVENT injuries not address them after they’ve occured. Injury prevention is a VERY important aspect of life, sports, lifting weights, etc and if you don’t address it by working on range of motion either statically/dynamically, strengthening key areas (lower back, core, hips, shoulder to name a few) and performing active recovery sessions to promote blood flow, then I hope you have a good physical therapist. Or maybe an injury will never happen to you because you are too strong:) 
Hahahahahah Let’s bet on it!
[active recovery is what i’m all about cowboy ;). that said, i feel this workout is fine if you wanna go out and do something fun and get the blood flowing. this is just a bunch of exercises thrown together with no rhyme or reason and called “prehab”.]
[oh btw. i see nothing wrong with good hard work. in fact, i totally advocate for those who have less active jobs to go out and do some work or at least mimick work be it hitting a sledge on a tire or loading up a wheelbarrow.
and if you’ve ever been around true workers that have been goin at it all day for 25 years, you see how great they feel physically. i worked with line crews at a power company for a while and let me tell ya, there wasn’t a single one that wasn’t hurting due to injury or just repetitive trauma regardless of age. and do you really know any honest to goodness lumberjacks?? i mean seriously.]
[quote]BPC wrote:
Skinning cats" was just to make a point.
What is all this “excess volume” y’all keep talking about? How is it excessive? How do you train? Don’t forget that Coach Davies builds the volume gradually. Overtraining is such a “weak” minded mentality and a buzz word by the way. Is a lumberjack concerned w/“overtraining” or does his livelihood depend on that? Same thing with a construction worker. Riddle me that batman.
[/quote]
Did you read my post where I showed some pretty high volume which was half of the first day of training?
Also Francis has theorized that too much volume as a youngster can permanently dampen high end speed power at later stages (he said this was due to fibre conversion). This is a debatable point from what ive seen but worth noting, when you take up training youngsters…
Really? He mentions it every chance he gets and a front squat on a swiss ball is on the cover of one of his books? Whether they comprise 2% of a program or not is irrelevant? I use them, they are FUN!. To state however that they will help in football or even the extreme sports wrong though? Im not discussing the time spent on them just the claims made about them?
Fair enough, tapering and periodized programs are cool, im a big fan, but this was half of day 1? I was just saying that it was a looooooooot of volume, which is most definetly is?
Its NOT just the intensity it?s the actual ladder drills? Also how much carryover does practicing something slowly have comared to performing something very fast… If you were to practicing axing a tree with a 5-1-5 tempo how good at axing trees do you think you would get??? Sure there will be some learning aspects, ie how to position the body how to hold the axe etc? but in all reality the benefit to axing trees with a 5-1-5 tempo will be VERY limited?
Just as running marathons wont make you ever make a line break or score a try? Being slow doesn?t help with anything! Especially in American sports which are extremely anaerobic? How long does the average play last in American football? How long are the breaks inbetween the plays? I don?t have any real data but the plays are short and the breaks are long? EDIT I just did a search and found this
If that is true you should now be seeing my point? Being fast and powerful is very important? being able to perform for 5 seconds once every minute is important not being able to do agilities for 12 minutes? Now im not saying that you need to use a 10:1 work to rest ratio to get into condition for football, just that 12mins of agilities makes little sense?
Running is also a great tool to get fatties into shape, so is walking? It?s a pitty that he didn?t state that the program was for obese untrained people. He instead gave a program that he gives to his ?TOP ATHLETES?? Now if he had said this is a program for fat untrained people I wouldn?t have made the point? If ?top athletes? want to lose strength speed and power that really is their choice? (Although some ?top athletes? will be genetic freaks that will get away with it?)
Do you really think so? Let me remind you about powercleans on swissballs and indoboards? Now don?t get me wrong, unlike many here I do like these exercises, but because they are fun, not because they will make me a better athlete?
Yes yes yes, I most definetly will concede that most liked the GPP but lost strength and power? Strength and power are kinda important though… Do you realize that? Its what ive been saying all along though? Better condition is a very ambiguous term though? They may have had improved endurance but were not in as good condition to compete in speed strength and power sports ie football basketball, track and field, etc? So yeah better ?condition? but also worse prepared (condition) to compete? Still though most people said that they would continue to use some of the GPP methods, but instead use an acceptable strength/power template?
Just out of interest how strong is the average lumberjack? How strong is the average bodybuilder? What exercises were used in the test? I didn’t know that there was data like this available? I dont know many lumberjacks but I know some contruction workers and am not impressed by their strength…
Why did you compare lumberjacks to bodybuilders anyway?
A LOT of strength trainees now are beginning to abandon the dynamic effort method! DE is good for RFD but not really strength. The strength gains from it are inferior to the ME and RE method unless you are naturally very slow. I am a big fan of DE though! Either way you wrote that in response to my criticism of fat to fire. Do you realize that the tempo advocated in fat to fire is 4-0-2??? Not particularly dynamic effort now is it? To be honest I really wish you guys would read a little more about the stuff you are going to comment on! Its getting a little annoying
BPC I refer you to charles staley Diagonal summation article. Please read it before commenting further on strength endurance etc. Max strength is the foundation for all strength capacities, don’t neglect it. sure there is most definetly room for some specialization in a specific area of strength but theres not much point of your just plain weak.
[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Really? He mentions it every chance he gets and a front squat on a swiss ball is on the cover of one of his books? [/quote]
I’m pretty sure that cover pic was just for effect. That’s what they do with cover art. Just something to catch the eye.
Read past the cover and you’ll see he never actually recommends “swiss ball squats.”
Wow, I didn’t know this. What are some of these trainers doing in place of DE day?
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
BPC wrote:
A lot! You are telling me that good old fashioned hard work is bad for you? What a concept? Most construction workers/lumberjacks are much stronger than most bodybuilders and don’t even touch weights Slim jim had some great points that sounded a lot like mine.
Comparing the loading of a occupation, to soemthing that most people add on top of their occupation is two different things. If any of you have worked in construction, you would reaslise how many apprentices get trashed in the first few weeks into the job, because they do not have teh ability to keep up. Even when they get to the level of other workers, they dont work up to a higher level, they generally do the bare minimum they can get away with.[/quote]
That’s pure and simple laziness. What a cop out!
[quote]cycomiko wrote:
BPC wrote: Overtraining is such a “weak” minded mentality and a buzz word by the way.
Shame that reality doesn’t agree with you.
overtraining syndrome (or more currently called underperformance syndrome) and its associated over-reaching is a very real and repeatable effect. Over-reaching is also a handy part of supercompensation during training.[/quote]
Let me expound on my previous comment:
Overtraining does exist and when training one does everything he/she can to avoid it: stretching statically, dynamic mobility drills, active recover sessions, massage, rest, sleep, proper nutrition, etc. I merely meant that the strength/conditioning community has gone too far w/overtraining and has become a buzzword. The reality is (believ it or not) that the body is capable of waaaaay more than the mind typically thinks and usually hinders the body because of fears, self-doubts, laziness,etc so it’s good to really push yourself sometimes. Of course you rest, don’t overdo it, etc but that’s a very personal thing-overdoing it-everybody has different fitness levels and you obviously gradually build those levels up
Training is a lifestyle for me, not just 3 days per week for an hour in a gym-it’s about being active, playing recreational sports, taking the stairs versus the elevator, etc wayyyyy more than just “working out in a gym” for me-maybe not for you???
[quote]Chris Mangano wrote:
The internet is a great thing, but one of it’s drawbacks is it allows anyone to be heard, even if they aren’t saying anything intelligent.[/quote]
I just wanted to come on here to tell people that Charlie francis coached some gay pornstars on proper sphincter compression.
In no way was I here to make rash statements.
[quote]basementD wrote:
A LOT of strength trainees now are beginning to abandon the dynamic effort method! DE is good for RFD but not really strength. The strength gains from it are inferior to the ME and RE method unless you are naturally very slow.
Wow, I didn’t know this. What are some of these trainers doing in place of DE day? [/quote]
It depends on what they are training for and Cycomiko and Big Martin will probably be able to answer this better than I… I will have a go though
Personally I think that DE is awesome it really does need to be used in conjuction with heavier lifting though… anyway
Powerlifters, a lot of powerlifters started doing DE when westside became really popular… The thing with DE though is it doesnt help everyone. People that lack speed and RFD get a lot out of it (they need to be pretty slow though because powerlifting isnt a particurarly fast sport - lifts take from 3-7 seconds)… Raw lifters also tend to a lot get more out of it than geared lifters… What they are donig instead depends… Some are doing technique work with moderate weight and reps… ie with westside you change exercise on ME every week, some are using the what would be the DE day to keep up practice with the actual movement… Some are using a shirt day and a raw day. Some are doing zero momentum work. Some will do heavy but not maximal triple or doubles…
Remember that there are a lot of different schools of thought on powerlifting… While I really am big fan of DE I would guess that most powerlifters do not use DE very much at all… Its not that DE doesnt improve strength just that some/many find that it doesnt give the best results… Personally I think it helps me a lot…
Look up Ed Coans programs and Metal Melitia for examples…
Athletes… Some argue that DE stuff for athletes is entirely reduntant because the very nature of sports develops and trains RFD extensively… Ie the sports itself will make you fast enough that DE becomes reduntant (there are also a billion other theoretical arguments that are made for and against it but ultimately they are irrelevant for this discussion)… Personally I like the use of DE for most athletes because I feel that it assists developing strength… This isnt about me though… A lot of athletes will not use ME or DE as outlined… Many will do multiple sets of low reps with a weight that is submaximal but high intensity 85-95%… The weight will move pretty fast, but its definetly not DE, the weight is also damn heavy but not quite ME… The reps arent high enough and not taken to failure so they technically dont meet the definition of RE either…
[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
basementD wrote:
A LOT of strength trainees now are beginning to abandon the dynamic effort method! DE is good for RFD but not really strength. The strength gains from it are inferior to the ME and RE method unless you are naturally very slow.
Wow, I didn’t know this. What are some of these trainers doing in place of DE day?
It depends on what they are training for and Cycomiko and Big Martin will probably be able to answer this better than I… I will have a go though
Personally I think that DE is awesome it really does need to be used in conjuction with heavier lifting though… anyway
Powerlifters, a lot of powerlifters started doing DE when westside became really popular… The thing with DE though is it doesnt help everyone. People that lack speed and RFD get a lot out of it (they need to be pretty slow though because powerlifting isnt a particurarly fast sport - lifts take from 3-7 seconds)… Raw lifters also tend to a lot get more out of it than geared lifters… What they are donig instead depends… Some are doing technique work with moderate weight and reps… ie with westside you change exercise on ME every week, some are using the what would be the DE day to keep up practice with the actual movement… Some are using a shirt day and a raw day. Some are doing zero momentum work. Some will do heavy but not maximal triple or doubles…
Remember that there are a lot of different schools of thought on powerlifting… While I really am big fan of DE I would guess that most powerlifters do not use DE very much at all… Its not that DE doesnt improve strength just that some/many find that it doesnt give the best results… Personally I think it helps me a lot…
Look up Ed Coans programs and Metal Melitia for examples…
Athletes… Some argue that DE stuff for athletes is entirely reduntant because the very nature of sports develops and trains RFD extensively… Ie the sports itself will make you fast enough that DE becomes reduntant (there are also a billion other theoretical arguments that are made for and against it but ultimately they are irrelevant for this discussion)… Personally I like the use of DE for most athletes because I feel that it assists developing strength… This isnt about me though… A lot of athletes will not use ME or DE as outlined… Many will do multiple sets of low reps with a weight that is submaximal but high intensity 85-95%… The weight will move pretty fast, but its definetly not DE, the weight is also damn heavy but not quite ME… The reps arent high enough and not taken to failure so they technically dont meet the definition of RE either…[/quote]
Chris,
Thanks for the info. Strength training is always evolving. You gotta love it!!
First off, I have not read every single post here, so forgive me if this has been brought up. But I have a question for the Anti-Davies side of this fiasco…how many of you have actually seen any of John’s programs other than the stuff posted here? I mean complete phases not just a level? How many have seen how the volume changes throughout? How the intensity changes and the rep scheme changes? Any of you?
One of John’s main goals is to produce healthy individuals, hence all the initial GPP and volume - to get your butt in shape! Not every program has kettlebell and clubbell stuff prior to rope work…hmm must be some reason he did it that way in that article …Not every day do you do hurdles and agility ladders either…
The problem I see here is a lack of knowledge on the entire program, John’s stuff isn’t really made to be “the workout of the week” like so many other articles here, it is a beginning… I have told him several times he should write up an article with more of an explanation of his splits and his workout progressions, he just hasn’t done it yet. I think if everyone had a better understanding or deeper knowledge of his progrmas, most of these arguments (except the silly he said, she said crap) would not even occur
I train Renegade Style and I always will, I have made tremendous gains in strength putting over 50 pounds on my bench and squat in 8 weeks and going from never performing a push jerk to use over 300 pounds for reps. Note that I wasn’t using any of the articles written here, I was using a powerlifting/strongman program John wrote.
In Faith,
Matt
[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
The balance training employed is a small part of his overall training package, it is like pulling a piston out of the engine and saying,“Look how uneven the top is.” I don’t personally agree with the swiss ball lifting either, however, labelling him as a balance guy doesn’t do him justice either since maybe 2% of his program involves this.
Really? He mentions it every chance he gets and a front squat on a swiss ball is on the cover of one of his books? Whether they comprise 2% of a program or not is irrelevant? I use them, they are FUN!. To state however that they will help in football or even the extreme sports wrong though? Im not discussing the time spent on them just the claims made about them?
[/quote]
Again you’re pigeonholing him here by saying he mentions them every chance he gets, not every article he writes is about this, or even mentions it. What is your evidence to prove that they will not improve athletic performance?
You’ve shown me one day of the workout, you can’t use this to evaluate the whole program. Where did you find this?
Now you’re drawing too much from my statements. I was not saying that ladder drills should be done slowly, only that the high intensity training for the sport(ie sprint training and conditioning) would not be addressed during ladder drills.
Yeah, and there’s this ladder thing with components to athletic performance, each rung adding to the level of the components underneath, but the lower ones do not aid in the higher ones, and weight training is a favorite of athletic performance trainers since it is highly trainable and carries over to a lot of the components underneath it. Great-I’ve read the stuff posted on T-mag as well. No where in my statement did I mention low intensity training for an “anaerobic sport.” The point I was trying to make is that someone who only trains for strength, will not be able to play four quarters of football. You also did not post any of his program showing sprint training or intensities, so any conclusions you drew came from somewhere else?
Being the most powerful or fastest guy on the field will not help if you’re sucking wind after the first play of the game.
Which program did he say he gave to his top atheletes? And even if he did have his athletes performing fat to fire, how familiar are you with their current training regimen or history to comment? You really can’t make these judgements, because you aren’t familiar with the individuals involved, or maybe you’re advocating a “cookie cutter” program where everyone should train the same way because there is only one way to train. Do you like when someone takes your comments on a completely different tangent from they originally meant?
He feels they work. Others say they don’t. Maybe he’ll be proven right in the future and the rest of us will be eating our words. Just because a lot of us believe they don’t work doesn’t make him wrong.
Yes speed and power are important. However, if you aren’t conditioned enough to be able to continually perform over the course of an entire game, than what the hell is the point? An alibi on my last post, I will not make those concessions because the evidence presented was not good enough. There are too many variables involving the athletes. What did their nutrition program look like? What was their training history prior to completing the program? Did they even perform the program correctly, in proper form, with proper rest? Since we are all individuals, would John have prescribed the same methods for an athlete that he actually works with and can tailor his program to, rather than one who uses his program without his supervision or guidance? Any training method, be it West Side, Charlie Francis, or Snoopies guide to stronger anterior methalusus could see problems outlined by those you quoted if any of these factors were fucked up.
[quote]Matt Slaymaker wrote:
First off, I have not read every single post here, so forgive me if this has been brought up. But I have a question for the Anti-Davies side of this fiasco…how many of you have actually seen any of John’s programs other than the stuff posted here? I mean complete phases not just a level? How many have seen how the volume changes throughout? How the intensity changes and the rep scheme changes? Any of you? [/quote]
hey matt. miss you over at the other place buddy. i haven’t seen any of Davies’s pay programs except for what’s in the football book and that’s not a program, just a loose description of a typical Renegade workout with exercises and pictures. the reason is his programs are expensive and i’ve not heard enough good about them to outweigh the negative.
but he says in the workout i posted that the Renegade would do all this stuff before hand. just not enough continuity from his print material to his pay material. i’d like to see a good sample of what’s going on before i jump in and buy a “program”.
well put. that’s what this whole debate is about. if Renegade Training works so well, then why and how. answer a few questions when asked. all most of us ever get is double talk that’s very difficult to interpret.
well done. i’m always impressed by progress, and that’s some good progress especially that push jerk. but alot of “programs” have done this and free ones at that. for example my box squat went up over 100 pounds in less than 3 months just by changing my squat cycle per a free elite template, and i’m by no means an untrained individual. i think i figured out this quote thing by the way.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
Matt Slaymaker wrote:
First off, I have not read every single post here, so forgive me if this has been brought up. But I have a question for the Anti-Davies side of this fiasco…how many of you have actually seen any of John’s programs other than the stuff posted here? I mean complete phases not just a level? How many have seen how the volume changes throughout? How the intensity changes and the rep scheme changes? Any of you?
hey matt. miss you over at the other place buddy. i haven’t seen any of Davies’s pay programs except for what’s in the football book and that’s not a program, just a loose description of a typical Renegade workout with exercises and pictures. the reason is his programs are expensive and i’ve not heard enough good about them to outweigh the negative.
One of John’s main goals is to produce healthy individuals, hence all the initial GPP and volume - to get your butt in shape! Not every program has kettlebell and clubbell stuff prior to rope work…hmm must be some reason he did it that way in that article …Not every day do you do hurdles and agility ladders either…
but he says in the workout i posted that the Renegade would do all this stuff before hand. just not enough continuity from his print material to his pay material. i’d like to see a good sample of what’s going on before i jump in and buy a “program”.
The problem I see here is a lack of knowledge on the entire program, John’s stuff isn’t really made to be “the workout of the week” like so many other articles here, it is a beginning… I have told him several times he should write up an article with more of an explanation of his splits and his workout progressions, he just hasn’t done it yet. I think if everyone had a better understanding or deeper knowledge of his progrmas, most of these arguments (except the silly he said, she said crap) would not even occur
well put. that’s what this whole debate is about. if Renegade Training works so well, then why and how. answer a few questions when asked. all most of us ever get is double talk that’s very difficult to interpret.
I train Renegade Style and I always will, I have made tremendous gains in strength putting over 50 pounds on my bench and squat in 8 weeks and going from never performing a push jerk to use over 300 pounds for reps. Note that I wasn’t using any of the articles written here, I was using a powerlifting/strongman program John wrote.
well done. i’m always impressed by progress, and that’s some good progress especially that push jerk. but alot of “programs” have done this and free ones at that. for example my box squat went up over 100 pounds in less than 3 months just by changing my squat cycle per a free elite template, and i’m by no means an untrained individual. i think i figured out this quote thing by the way.
[/quote]
That’s exactly what I’m talking about boom pop or whatever you go by. What’s this “enos” and “bob” stuff you called me? Do you have tourette syndrome or something? You wanna get smart well let’s get smart iggy pop.
Measuring “progress” by an increase in a particular lift is okay if you are an olympic weightlifter or powerlifter. That’s what they train for and their main goals. However, most people that cling to Coach Davies’s programs are athletes that participate in sports like basketball, martial arts, xtreme sports, or regular joes wanting to be all around healthy/athletic. Coach Davies, these particular athletes I mentioned and myself, we could care less how much weight we can lift. What does that mean anyways? Exactly that. You can lift x amount of weight, so what? I know it’s a method of measuring “progress” but for me, progress is more about leaping higher when playing basketball, having more endurance when sparring in martial arts, increased agility/timing, things of those nature. And yes, I do care a lot about “strength” but define strength to me. Strength is many things. Strength is not limited to just how much you can bench or squat not that those are bad things just merely one aspect to a bigger picture.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
Matt Slaymaker wrote:
First off, I have not read every single post here, so forgive me if this has been brought up. But I have a question for the Anti-Davies side of this fiasco…how many of you have actually seen any of John’s programs other than the stuff posted here? I mean complete phases not just a level? How many have seen how the volume changes throughout? How the intensity changes and the rep scheme changes? Any of you?
hey matt. miss you over at the other place buddy. i haven’t seen any of Davies’s pay programs except for what’s in the football book and that’s not a program, just a loose description of a typical Renegade workout with exercises and pictures. the reason is his programs are expensive and i’ve not heard enough good about them to outweigh the negative.
One of John’s main goals is to produce healthy individuals, hence all the initial GPP and volume - to get your butt in shape! Not every program has kettlebell and clubbell stuff prior to rope work…hmm must be some reason he did it that way in that article …Not every day do you do hurdles and agility ladders either…
but he says in the workout i posted that the Renegade would do all this stuff before hand. just not enough continuity from his print material to his pay material. i’d like to see a good sample of what’s going on before i jump in and buy a “program”.
The problem I see here is a lack of knowledge on the entire program, John’s stuff isn’t really made to be “the workout of the week” like so many other articles here, it is a beginning… I have told him several times he should write up an article with more of an explanation of his splits and his workout progressions, he just hasn’t done it yet. I think if everyone had a better understanding or deeper knowledge of his progrmas, most of these arguments (except the silly he said, she said crap) would not even occur
well put. that’s what this whole debate is about. if Renegade Training works so well, then why and how. answer a few questions when asked. all most of us ever get is double talk that’s very difficult to interpret.
I train Renegade Style and I always will, I have made tremendous gains in strength putting over 50 pounds on my bench and squat in 8 weeks and going from never performing a push jerk to use over 300 pounds for reps. Note that I wasn’t using any of the articles written here, I was using a powerlifting/strongman program John wrote.
well done. i’m always impressed by progress, and that’s some good progress especially that push jerk. but alot of “programs” have done this and free ones at that. for example my box squat went up over 100 pounds in less than 3 months just by changing my squat cycle per a free elite template, and i’m by no means an untrained individual. i think i figured out this quote thing by the way.
[/quote]
That’s what this whole debate is about huh boom doc holiday? Wasn’t doc holiday a real sickly man? Interesting choice of idols/heroes.
Let’s continue this “debate” since you are such a skeptic.
Renegade Training does work and I’ll just give you 2 simple, but profound reasons why:
Addresses peoples/athletes needs on a multi-faceted level i.e. (endurance, strength, agility, motor skills, speed which are often perceived outside the Renegade circle as separate and distinct physical attributes which are actually intertwined-example: let’s say a man or woman has a newborn baby and has to carry the baby all over the place, is that strength, endurance, etc? It’s both. that’s just one example of how training for everyday life/sports is much broader than say to improve at one particular lift like a squat or bench press.
Why or how does it work? Many programs advocate training only within the confines of the gym (barbells, treadmill, etc) but some of the best ways to train are outdoors on sand, hills, using shovels, axes, wheelbarrows, medicine balls, carrying odd objects etc. Not that the Renegade program ONLY utilizes those forms of training but a lot of programs don’t incorporate those things.
What else do you want? We could go on and on. I think the main thing is that in the Renegade system the focus is all about improve performance (whether in life or sport) not just a “big” bench press/squat/deadlift. I’m not at all knocking powerlifters and it’s amazing the things they can do and lift but it’s not the end be all that it’s made out to be. I mean c’mon people get on my nerves asking me “whaddya bench?” Who cares? A better questions or measurement is let’s see who can strike/punch harder or sprint faster.
Give me your best doc holiday
[quote]BPC wrote:
That’s exactly what I’m talking about boom pop or whatever you go by. What’s this “enos” and “bob” stuff you called me? Do you have tourette syndrome or something? You wanna get smart well let’s get smart iggy pop.[/quote]
you’re right man. i appologize for gettin a little carried away with the sarcasm. forgive?
that’s fine. i don’t care how much you or anyone else lifts either.
training the way i do, i have increased endurance, speed, and lean body mass, not to mention silly numerical “measures” such as maximal strength, vertical leap, timed 40, etc. increased performance in all aspects of my recreational athletic pursuits is a marker of improvement i use as well. but you see, we’ve travelled so far away from the discussion at hand it doesn’t matter.
fine. i won’t debate you any further about the term “strength”, nor have i said anywhere that the big 3 lifts are the markers of “strength” however you define it.
i only ask that you go back and reread and answer the questions i’ve posed and i’ll promise to keep the sarcasm to a minimum. thanks.
[quote]That’s what this whole debate is about huh boom doc holiday? Wasn’t doc holiday a real sickly man? Interesting choice of idols/heroes.
Let’s continue this “debate” since you are such a skeptic.
Renegade Training does work and I’ll just give you 2 simple, but profound reasons why:
Addresses peoples/athletes needs on a multi-faceted level i.e. (endurance, strength, agility, motor skills, speed which are often perceived outside the Renegade circle as separate and distinct physical attributes which are actually intertwined-example: let’s say a man or woman has a newborn baby and has to carry the baby all over the place, is that strength, endurance, etc? It’s both. that’s just one example of how training for everyday life/sports is much broader than say to improve at one particular lift like a squat or bench press.
Why or how does it work? Many programs advocate training only within the confines of the gym (barbells, treadmill, etc) but some of the best ways to train are outdoors on sand, hills, using shovels, axes, wheelbarrows, medicine balls, carrying odd objects etc. Not that the Renegade program ONLY utilizes those forms of training but a lot of programs don’t incorporate those things.
What else do you want? We could go on and on. I think the main thing is that in the Renegade system the focus is all about improve performance (whether in life or sport) not just a “big” bench press/squat/deadlift. I’m not at all knocking powerlifters and it’s amazing the things they can do and lift but it’s not the end be all that it’s made out to be. I mean c’mon people get on my nerves asking me “whaddya bench?” Who cares? A better questions or measurement is let’s see who can strike/punch harder or sprint faster.
Give me your best doc holiday
[/quote]
well since this slipped in somehow while i was replying to your other thing, we’ll let it ride.
but you still haven’t answered any questions i’ve asked. nor given rationale for any of the above.
but in response to your last paragraph since we can’t use lifts as a means of measuring improved performance, why should we now use other measurable things like sprint and punch force that you just mentioned? is the hardest puncher gonna win the fight? is the fastest sprinter gonna get in the end zone more often? seriously flawed logic my friend. it’s getting increasingly difficult to keep any kind of rationale conversation going with you. so you probably won’t get any more responses from me. i think at this point you’ve made a better case for the renegade “skeptics” than the renegades themselves.
[quote]BPC wrote:
That’s pure and simple laziness. What a cop out!
[/quote]
no, its reality.
A lumberjack does not try to add to his workload. DO you go to your boss and ask them for more work?