[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
points at cupcake he’s smart.
Now can we all please shut up and get back to lifting?
[/quote]
what he said.
[quote]DavidL wrote:
If you could only do one lift, in my opinion it should be clean & jerks.
The Javorek Complex forces you to use weights that are too light to be beneficial for strength/power/bodybuilding, and as Christian Thibaudeau explained in an earlier discussion, weights are probably less than ideal for interval work.[/quote]
Yeah that doesnt mean that the Javorek complexes or the bear arent useful though… However I would have to agree with you in disagreeing with slim. If I were allowed only 1 exercise it wouldnt be the bear… The bear may be a good conditioning tool but so is running… Im not even trying to discredit complexes, MMA guys, boxers, etc seem to use them with high success… just that if you are only allowed to use 1 weights movement I would use it to build strength speed power or hypertrophy rather than some stamina that could be achieved through other means…
Davies has definetly done a good job popularizing these complexes which are traditionally associated with Javorek though…
I have written about seven responses to this damn thread and then decided to not post all of them because it is basically an internet pissing match.
However, As I have stated before, I have incorporated some of Davies’ ideas into my training for golf, I have improved. sure I have been improving anyways but here is how it work with golf (and any sport if you will). to go from a 30 handicapp to a 20 is reletively easy, practice a couple times a week and maybe take a lesson or two. If you put any sort of effort into getting better you can become relatively consistant. Going from a 20 to a 15 will take a lot more effort and each individual aspect of the game will need to be practiced for several hours a week as well as playing several rounds a week. And the Effort has to be there as well as lessons to fix any major swing flaws.
When you try getting to 10 or under from this point the real challenges start, you have to be playing and or prcticing at least 5 days a week or more and you have to have good swing mechanics, maybe not perfect but you really need to be able to square the clubface consistantly to shoot consistantly.
Now some of you guys may be thinking, shit I’ve seen tons of old unathletic guys go shoot a round of par golf so what the hell does this have to do with Davies’ training? Here’s the thing, these guys may be able to shoot a round of par here or there, the courses they play on aren’t very hard and are set up for average golfers who are relitively consistant to play well. They cant hit a 3 iron out of thick rough 220 yars to a tucked pin. They cant hit driver on a hole with a creek at 275 yards for a chance to eagle the hole. when they are in trouble they can’t drastically alter thier swing path to get a desired cut or fade. All they can do is hit thier ball straight down the middle and get to the green and 2 putt. I have decent balance to begin with, but only a year and a half ago, I would lose my balance in my golf swing when I tried to go 100% or if I tried to alter my swing path or get at it in deep rough etc… In the past year I have been using some of the drills in davies golf program, (along with other mental aspects he teaches) and my balance while swinging is far far better than what it was.
OK so… you guys aren’t looking for lab proof right, as long as we have some evidence of real world improvements where someone has used a Davies’ program to improve thier athletic performance? 2 years ago I was a 24 handicapp, in one year I made it down to a 13 handicapp, this is a pretty f-ing big improvement for a person to make. The real nice thing about it is that the shots I pull off are PGA tour caliber, my consistancy is lacking as I have only been playing for 4-5 years now. People who golf with me tell me that I am “fun to watch” that is a direct result of having the athletic ability to make those shots. Tiger woods is fun to watch and he is the most althetic person on the tour.
Well this was way too long of a response, and I am not trying to take sides, I have read CF’s stuff and he is brilliant, this doesn’t take anything away from CD in my opinion and both coaches should be held in high respect. So they have a thing personally with eachother, big deal, there were teachers in school that I really disliked, that doesn’t take away from the things I learned from them. Actually the man that I hated the most while going to school has tought me the most about his subject and about life in general, take that how you will.
[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
points at cupcake he’s smart.
Now can we all please shut up and get back to lifting?
what he said.[/quote]
i don’t know about you guys but i’m not losing any “lifting” time from this “silly waste of everyone’s time”. we are now having a discussion. posts like you and xen and the two “wise men” are not contributing to discussion. so as previously stated, you don’t have to read this.
so here’s some contribution. look at this “man of steel” workout. http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=197steel
i don’t even know where to start so i’ll highlight a couple things in here that just don’t make sense. in his warmup we have weighted iron crosses, DB or KB swings, etc. THEN rope work. why not start with rope work with would effectively warm the body up for loading with the above exercises. this progression seems more logical. as for volume, lets not forget that the renegade has already performed several sets of tumbling, ladder drills, foot work, hurdles with and without kettlebells.
then we have the lifting. Davies talks about the lifts HE likes to call “focus, accessory, and supplemental” lifts. ok, so a direct take off of conjugate periodization and everything louie and dave write about. fine. but what are the focus lifts?? what are the supplemental and accessories? and what is this strength thing he’s talking about? i don’t see strength increasing from 12-15 reps.
honestly, i don’t see where this type of workout would fit in for any athlete. it’s nowhere close to a rehab type workout (which i don’t think is the focus) however it has pretty obvious rehab elements in it (superman and scorpion). it’s not a strength workout of any sort. i don’t even see it as an effective pre-hab type workout if you will because it doesn’t address any semblance of specific weaknesses and mechanical dysfunctions that truly cause injury. this workout assumes that the athlete has no unilateral imbalances which we all know for most people especially athletes is not the case. and i’m still tryin to figure out where the strength portion of this workout comes into play.
all this workout says to me is the movements look kinda cool. and i find this the case for most of the renegade workouts i’ve seen in print.
so there’s a specific example. continue discussion.
Slim Jim
You asked for a critique of Davies work so here goes
- Davies is a fan of balance training which in my opinion there is no real use for other than rehab/prehab, entertainment. I remember a post or two at ST about increased VMO recruitment etc… But in general I think that the claims about improved balance are not valid… For some information on this, read ST list, Bill Hartmans post on this site (he had an argument with JPfitness) read Erics posts and check out the studies he posted…
I find statements like this to be silly
Firstly because standing on a ball isnt hard, secondly because it wont achieve anything
- Davies does frequently use and promote unnecasserily high volume… There is a point of diminishing returns after which gains will cease… The programs you posted did seem to have reasonable volume… Ill post another though… Remember that this is the second section of a training the first being speed and agility which he didnt go into depth on… THis is also the first day of training… So one can safely assume that volume will increase over time…
[quote]
GPP (non-weighted): 30 seconds each exercise, 4 total sets
A) Jumping jacks
B) Shuffle splits
C) Burpees
D) Star jumps
Explosive/Jump Training
Barrier Jumps x 10 sets
Strength Development, weighted
A) Snatch ? Split Lunge with Overhead Squat, 4 x 3
B) Kettlebell or Dumbbell Snatch, 3 x 30
C) Medicine Ball Scoop, forward throw, 3 x 3
D) Medicine Ball Scoop, backward throw, 3 x 3
E) One-legged Squat, 3 x 10
F) Box Squat, 6 x 3 (50% of 1RM)
G) Glute-Ham Raises, 5 x 20
H) Reverse Hyper, 3 x 5-7 reps
I) Towel Chins, 3-5 x 10
GPP (weighted)
Wheelbarrow Stroll, 300 pounds, 5 minute walk (increase time as you progress)
Abdominals
Chinees, 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off for 5 minutes
The above workout was the strength component of our first day of Renegade Training. Prior to completing this, we would have tackled our speed and agility section. [/quote]
Like I will say below the strength component doesnt look like it will develop all that much strength…
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Davies promotes the use of agility ladders etc… These are fine for low level athletes to learn proper footwork but the continued use for higher level athletes is questionable… Sure they are fine for warmups or very early in the season, but I Davies seems to place too much emphasis on them. Doing agility ladders for 12 minutes continuously also sounds like a waste to me… Not many sports have you doing that… The intensity of sport is generally higher with more longer rest periods…
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The above point leads into the wrong energy systems thing… Training an athlete for such endurance will dampen/sacrifice the strength power and speed efforts…
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The weightloss methods in the fat to fire article didnt seem very good. I much prefer CTs approach of trying to keep strength and muscle when dieting! I personally find 420 reps with 50% of your max in a single session to be a lot… That much with that weight while at or below maintenance is a great way to lose hard earned strength and power…
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His ab training article did seem good…
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The nitro squat article you posted looked okay but if you are lookign to develop strength IMHO there are better programs… The volume wasnt that high I guess but when you train a bodypart 3 times per week you need to be VERY careful with volume… Im not really sure how much of a strength stimulis doing sets of 2-5 with 75-80% of max will generate… Ofcourse it is dependant on the lifter… untrained people can increase strong with 20% of max. I person that already has a good base of strength would strugle to make further gains with this IMHO… Its not bad though… It will depend on what level you are at… This would be more suited to lower level athletes…
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The warhorse article had some fun exercises. It might have been nice to credit westside with the split though… I mean even the days are the same…
This post is getting long so ill break it up, the anecdotes and quotes are up next…
Anecdotes and quotes
Joe Defranco from his interview here… Some of what he said reminded me of someone 
[quote]T-Nation: Agreed. You once took a shot at some other coaches, saying that any coach can make you tired, but it takes a true pro to make you stronger, faster, and more flexible.
JD: Yes, I made that statement and I stand by it. Athletes need to be aware of this. Unfortunately, they don?t always distinguish between getting tired and getting better.
Here?s an example: Let?s say that two performance coaches were preparing two different athletes to improve their 40-yard dash times. Coach A spends an hour teaching his athlete the proper track stance and first-step technique. Coach B makes his athlete perform jumping jacks for an hour straight. The athlete who did jumping jacks for an hour would be more tired than the other athlete. But the other athlete got better during his workout.
The lesson to be learned is that athletes must be very careful when hiring a performance coach. There are a lot of uneducated coaches out there who make up for their lack of knowledge by just beating the crap out of their athletes. Don?t get me wrong, I?m all for hard work. I just like to make sure the hard work has a reason and a purpose.
T-Nation: Good points, and true with regular people too, not just elite athletes. Now, as a performance coach, what do you think of this “functional training” craze?
JD: It?s funny you ask about functional training. As we speak, I?m standing on a Swiss ball with my eyes closed, I have my left thumb jammed up my nose, and I?m juggling two wobble boards with my right hand. My strength is more functional already! [laughing]
Obviously, I feel that most people?s definition of functional training is bullshit! “Functional training” is a way for skinny, weak personal trainers to get recognized. They know they?re not going to turn any heads by bench-pressing the eight-pound chrome dumbbells, so they balance on a wobble board and touch their toes! It makes me sick!
Whoever came up with the term “functional” for these ridiculous exercises needs to have his head examined. Here?s my question for all of the “functional” trainers out there: How would you categorize the following exercises, since you don?t classify them as functional? Squats, chins, deadlifts, sled dragging, tire flipping, and glute-ham raises, just to name a few. I?d love to be enlightened with an answer to that question. Let?s move on.
T-Nation: You know, Joe, you should stop holding back and tell us what you really think. Just let it out and stop being so shy. Kidding. Let’s do move on before that vein in your bald head pops! I’ve heard you use the term “training economy” quite a bit. What do you mean by that?
JD: I first heard of this term a couple of years ago at a Charles Poliquin seminar. Basically, training economy refers to choosing the exercises that give you the best “bang for your buck” in training.
In other words, why would an athlete perform eight unproductive exercises and spend three hours in the gym, when he can get better results by doing four productive exercises and spending one hour in the gym? High school kids are the biggest culprits of not adhering to the training economy. Their exercise selection is usually a disgrace and they?re in the gym way too long. Then they wonder why their physiques never change or why they never get any stronger!
Athletes must also adhere to the training economy to prevent overtraining. You must remember that there?s more to an athlete?s training than just the weightroom. Spending too much time in the weightroom can end up being counterproductive to an athlete?s technical training, conditioning, etc.[/quote]
Some others
[quote]Well, since a few guys have offered their opinions on Davies, I think I might add mine. First off, as an introduction, I have done his Fat Loss programs and am a member of the Inner Circle.
What I liked:
GPP: I can’t say enough about this. Flat out, it gets you in great shape. It really helped me whenever I would play a pickup game of football or ultimate frisbee with my friends.
Olympic Lifts: My power clean greatly increased under his programs, I was quite happy with this. I also felt my vertical leap was increasing, seeing that I could dunk a regulation basketball at a height of 6’1.
Jump Rope: I really liked this stuff, but I couldn’t do it too often because I get shin splints really fast. I had to stick with GPP mostly.
Swiss Ball: I know my core became stronger, and I just show off how I can stand on a ball to my friends.
What I didn’t like:
Variety: Without giving away the workouts, of the two that I tried, there was not much variety. Often times, the percentages would remain the same for a long time, and the exercises would rarely change. This may be fine for some folks, but I really like some variety in exercise selection. Too much of the same thing gets me burnt out after a while.
Loss of Muscle Mass: I definitely lost mass in my legs, arms and chest. My shoulders were like bricks though from all the overhead work.
Loss of Strength: I just felt like some big lifts really got weaker. I could still lift reasonably heavy weights in the squat and bench press, but I didn’t ever feel strong on these lifts.
Overall: Right now I am doing Waterbury’s ABBH and then on to his Quattro Dynamo to get some mass and strength back. I am a huge supporter of Davies’ GPP and jump roping. Also, I think he has a good method to increasing the olympic lift. However, nobody is perfect in every aspect and I got in great shape, so I can’t get down on Davies. Really though, I learned a lot of lessons. Especially this: don’t put all your eggs in one basket. If you find something isn’t working for you, you can switch things up a bit to build some mass or strength. Right now, though, I feel I am in a better position to incorporate the Renegade things that I really liked.
Oh yes, towel chins were a beast. And I really focused on my hamstrings with Davies, very helpful.
Anyway, I just thought I would post my experience with Renegade Training.[/quote]
This guy is obviously pretty smart
local (t-mag) renegade devotee
[quote] agree. GPP gets you in awesome shape, the Olympic lifts make a huge difference, rope jumping is great and swiss ball work does help.
I also agree that there isn’t quite enough variety in the programs (and I’ve done several of them during the past two years), and I did lose muscle mass and strength depending on the program.
It seems as though getting in great shape with one of Coach D’s programs does sacrifice some mass and strength, but damn, I’ve never felt or looked better in my entire life.
With the powerlifting program, I got the strength back, but didn’t get much in mass due to it being such a specific program.
I’ve taken a break from Renegade because I need something different. I need more variety, and I need something different from what I’ve been doing. I’m a champ when it comes to resting one minute or less between sets (even heavy sets), but that has also made it extremely hard to gain mass or keep strength. So I’m resting more now (2-3 minutes, and it feels like forever) and able to use heavier weights. Hopefully, this will help me gain more mass and keep my strength.
I still use many Renegade principles in my training (and always will), but I’m not doing a complete Renegade program. [/quote]
[quote]After getting interested in WS a few months ago, I keep trying to find, and look at different ways to approach it more for an football players training, then powerlifting. So it’s very interesting to me.
I can second that I was never able to really put strength on through the Renegade training.
I actually got into it a few years ago. [/quote]
Thats enough for me,im pretty tired…
Slim I hoped that helped… many of the posts were very informative as well as just opinions on the system provided good info…
Having said everything ive said i want to say that I dont really care about Davies that much, Im not out to get him like many of you think… I only bothered posting at all because Charlies name was being dragged through the mud… My original intent was to defend Charlie not attack Davies… It seemed that I did a poor job of this and for that I apologise I definetly did get caught up in the argument and internet drama of it all… My best defence was attack so to speak… Still though, I stand by everything that ive said. I didnt mean to piss people off, I just thought that the attacks on Charlie were unwarranted and was kinda pissed off…
Id also like to thank cupcake for maknig me see the light
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
points at cupcake he’s smart.
Now can we all please shut up and get back to lifting?
what he said.
i don’t know about you guys but i’m not losing any “lifting” time from this “silly waste of everyone’s time”. we are now having a discussion. posts like you and xen and the two “wise men” are not contributing to discussion. so as previously stated, you don’t have to read this.
so here’s some contribution. look at this “man of steel” workout. http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=197steel
i don’t even know where to start so i’ll highlight a couple things in here that just don’t make sense. in his warmup we have weighted iron crosses, DB or KB swings, etc. THEN rope work. why not start with rope work with would effectively warm the body up for loading with the above exercises. this progression seems more logical. as for volume, lets not forget that the renegade has already performed several sets of tumbling, ladder drills, foot work, hurdles with and without kettlebells.
then we have the lifting. Davies talks about the lifts HE likes to call “focus, accessory, and supplemental” lifts. ok, so a direct take off of conjugate periodization and everything louie and dave write about. fine. but what are the focus lifts?? what are the supplemental and accessories? and what is this strength thing he’s talking about? i don’t see strength increasing from 12-15 reps.
honestly, i don’t see where this type of workout would fit in for any athlete. it’s nowhere close to a rehab type workout (which i don’t think is the focus) however it has pretty obvious rehab elements in it (superman and scorpion). it’s not a strength workout of any sort. i don’t even see it as an effective pre-hab type workout if you will because it doesn’t address any semblance of specific weaknesses and mechanical dysfunctions that truly cause injury. this workout assumes that the athlete has no unilateral imbalances which we all know for most people especially athletes is not the case. and i’m still tryin to figure out where the strength portion of this workout comes into play.
all this workout says to me is the movements look kinda cool. and i find this the case for most of the renegade workouts i’ve seen in print.
so there’s a specific example. continue discussion.
[/quote]
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Let me begin clarifying some things that “just don’t make any sense” to you, by saying that there are many ways to skin a cat. Likewise, there are many methods to warm up properly and prehab yourself. This is only one way of warming up and injury proofing yourself even for Coach Davies. I’m sure he has many more methods.
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If you read Coach Davies’s article carefully, it states that the loading is to be “light” so that would “warm up the body” in itself just as jumping rope does. Whether you jump rope first or lift light weights first is really irrelevant. Both are great movements to do for warming up and injury prevention.
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volume-those things you mentioned (hurdles, footwork, tumbling, etc) only take a few minutes to do and are basic fundamental human movements. They are generalized athletic movements. It’s not like he’s advocating doing 50 sets of squats-that’s “high volume”
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The Westside folks did not create the focus/accessory/supplemental/conjugate methods. They use them in their system yes but so do many other people so it’s not like Westside owns those words. That’s silly. Everybody in this field borrows some things from other people including Coach Davies and the Westside folks. Nothing wrong with that.
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Strength is a very broad word and 12-15 reps can enhance strength by improving motor skills/greasin’ the groove, etc. Strength is a learned skill that gets better with increased practice. What in your opinion is a better way to get “stronger?” Lifting a heavy load near your IRM? The topic of the article is injury prevention and the last time I checked, lifting close to your 1RM will have a much higher likelihood of causing injuries than a light-medium weight lifted w/proper form-check the ego at the door when lifting weights and don’t lift too heavy unless you are professional power lifter-are you? Even if you are a professional powerlifter, the goal of the article is to include an injury proofing session into an athletes regimen.
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The focus of this article is “prehab” not “rehab” which is different. It’s about preventing as many injuries as possible before they occur. Coach Davies does address the most common problematic areas such as lower back/shoulder capsule. Static holds/stabilization IS a form of strength. Just look at gymnasts. Are they not “strong?” If it’s not a form of strength (again: there are many forms of strength, such as limit strength, speed strength, strength endurance, static, etc)then what is it? You say that this program doesn’t address any unilateral weaknesses but a. it’s a very generalized program that can be suited to fit anybody’s needs b. the iron crosses are performed w/dumbbells which is unilateral (meaning single limb) as opposed to a barbell which would be bilateral.
If you don’t mind me asking, what’s your background and what are your goals? (powerlifting, bodybuilding, athlete, etc)
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
points at cupcake he’s smart.
Now can we all please shut up and get back to lifting?
what he said.
i don’t know about you guys but i’m not losing any “lifting” time from this “silly waste of everyone’s time”. we are now having a discussion. posts like you and xen and the two “wise men” are not contributing to discussion. so as previously stated, you don’t have to read this.
so here’s some contribution. look at this “man of steel” workout. http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=197steel
i don’t even know where to start so i’ll highlight a couple things in here that just don’t make sense. in his warmup we have weighted iron crosses, DB or KB swings, etc. THEN rope work. why not start with rope work with would effectively warm the body up for loading with the above exercises. this progression seems more logical. as for volume, lets not forget that the renegade has already performed several sets of tumbling, ladder drills, foot work, hurdles with and without kettlebells.
then we have the lifting. Davies talks about the lifts HE likes to call “focus, accessory, and supplemental” lifts. ok, so a direct take off of conjugate periodization and everything louie and dave write about. fine. but what are the focus lifts?? what are the supplemental and accessories? and what is this strength thing he’s talking about? i don’t see strength increasing from 12-15 reps.
honestly, i don’t see where this type of workout would fit in for any athlete. it’s nowhere close to a rehab type workout (which i don’t think is the focus) however it has pretty obvious rehab elements in it (superman and scorpion). it’s not a strength workout of any sort. i don’t even see it as an effective pre-hab type workout if you will because it doesn’t address any semblance of specific weaknesses and mechanical dysfunctions that truly cause injury. this workout assumes that the athlete has no unilateral imbalances which we all know for most people especially athletes is not the case. and i’m still tryin to figure out where the strength portion of this workout comes into play.
all this workout says to me is the movements look kinda cool. and i find this the case for most of the renegade workouts i’ve seen in print.
so there’s a specific example. continue discussion.
[/quote]
Now this is an entirely different post from the first 7 pages of this thread which were filled with all the accusation/counter accusation of a Susan Lucci impersonators convention.
THIS, is discussion from which you can learn stuff, I am sorry if I don’t feel that way about the Diego drama, JD’s communication skills or the rift with CF. The practice of intellectualy dismantling his programs is entirely productive and beneficial to everyone but going through his garbage to see what stinks is not.
Thats all I was saying.
I am also in agreement that there seems to be a substantial drop in return for a more advanced athelete using Renegade training then there is for a younger athelete but maybe that is where Coach D makes his money? You would have to (no you don’t but you know…) agree that a 17 yeard old who is far from his potential could benefit from even the “excess volume” until he reaches the point of diminishing return and perhaps moreso from just having a structured program in which case the opinion that training the younger athelete is simply plucking low hanging fruit would gain merit.
Is there a better way to make that same kid a better athelete?
Yep.
…and Chris, shouldn’t you be in freakin bed?
“If training were skinning cats would we still feel the same?”
~ Guess
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Skinning cats" was just to make a point.
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What is all this “excess volume” y’all keep talking about? How is it excessive? How do you train? Don’t forget that Coach Davies builds the volume gradually. Overtraining is such a “weak” minded mentality and a buzz word by the way. Is a lumberjack concerned w/“overtraining” or does his livelihood depend on that? Same thing with a construction worker. Riddle me that batman.
[quote]BPC wrote:
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Let me begin clarifying some things that “just don’t make any sense” to you, by saying that there are many ways to skin a cat. Likewise, there are many methods to warm up properly and prehab yourself. This is only one way of warming up and injury proofing yourself even for Coach Davies. I’m sure he has many more methods.
-
If you read Coach Davies’s article carefully, it states that the loading is to be “light” so that would “warm up the body” in itself just as jumping rope does. Whether you jump rope first or lift light weights first is really irrelevant. Both are great movements to do for warming up and injury prevention.[/quote]
for points 1 and 2: indeed, but why even put the weighted swings and iron crosses in there when the body should be ready to go from the mobility stuff etc? waste of time. and since most athletes doing this program aren’t true renegades and don’t do the ladders and blah blah prior they’d start immediately with
iron crosses and swings which are argueably more difficult than the focus work in question? that does not make sense.
rock on. this is not made clear anywhere in an article i’ve read nor in the football book.
fine. but why even mention it if it’s not put into place in the workout in question?
oh really???
YES!!!
oh really???
really? then where do you think it fits best in a healthy athlete’s regimen?
yes i’m aware of the difference as i stated already. still there are elements in this workout that should be left in the rehab setting.
then when he says “strength” in the article, what form of strength is he talking about because honestly, i don’t know. and what types of injuries is this workout going to help prevent?
uhhhhh, what?
most athletes have unilateral issues that effect the entire kinetic chain. take for instance a tight or weak erector spinae or a glute max or a supraspinatus.
it’s irrelevant. suffice it to say i am a powerlifter. i want to compete for a long time thus i place great importance on keeping my body “bulletproofed” and i fully understand and appreciate the term and proper use of prehabilitation. but for an athlete or lay lifter that is not injured or overtrained why do something like this other than for funsies? an injured or beat down athlete’s not gonna be doing agility drills (mobility stuff yes) and renegade rope training. this type of thing is trying to accomplish so much that in the end, it accomplishes little than “make a person tired” as stated by defranco.
sorry for the edit, i had to figure out the quote feature so this thing’s easier to read.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
BPC wrote:
boondoc holiday wrote:
so here’s some contribution. look at this “man of steel” workout. http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=197steel
i don’t even know where to start so i’ll highlight a couple things in here that just don’t make sense. in his warmup we have weighted iron crosses, DB or KB swings, etc. THEN rope work. why not start with rope work with would effectively warm the body up for loading with the above exercises. this progression seems more logical. as for volume, lets not forget that the renegade has already performed several sets of tumbling, ladder drills, foot work, hurdles with and without kettlebells.
then we have the lifting. Davies talks about the lifts HE likes to call “focus, accessory, and supplemental” lifts. ok, so a direct take off of conjugate periodization and everything louie and dave write about. fine. but what are the focus lifts?? what are the supplemental and accessories? and what is this strength thing he’s talking about? i don’t see strength increasing from 12-15 reps.
honestly, i don’t see where this type of workout would fit in for any athlete. it’s nowhere close to a rehab type workout (which i don’t think is the focus) however it has pretty obvious rehab elements in it (superman and scorpion). it’s not a strength workout of any sort. i don’t even see it as an effective pre-hab type workout if you will because it doesn’t address any semblance of specific weaknesses and mechanical dysfunctions that truly cause injury. this workout assumes that the athlete has no unilateral imbalances which we all know for most people especially athletes is not the case. and i’m still tryin to figure out where the strength portion of this workout comes into play.
all this workout says to me is the movements look kinda cool. and i find this the case for most of the renegade workouts i’ve seen in print.
so there’s a specific example. continue discussion.
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Let me begin clarifying some things that “just don’t make any sense” to you, by saying that there are many ways to skin a cat. Likewise, there are many methods to warm up properly and prehab yourself. This is only one way of warming up and injury proofing yourself even for Coach Davies. I’m sure he has many more methods.
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If you read Coach Davies’s article carefully, it states that the loading is to be “light” so that would “warm up the body” in itself just as jumping rope does. Whether you jump rope first or lift light weights first is really irrelevant. Both are great movements to do for warming up and injury prevention.
for points 1 and 2: indeed, but why even put the weighted swings and iron crosses in there when the body should be ready to go from the mobility stuff etc? waste of time. and since most athletes doing this program aren’t true renegades and don’t do the ladders and blah blah prior they’d start immediately with
iron crosses and swings which are argueably more difficult than the focus work in question? that does not make sense.
- volume-those things you mentioned (hurdles, footwork, tumbling, etc) only take a few minutes to do and are basic fundamental human movements. They are generalized athletic movements. It’s not like he’s advocating doing 50 sets of squats-that’s “high volume”
rock on. this is not made clear anywhere in an article i’ve read nor in the football book.
- The Westside folks did not create the focus/accessory/supplemental/conjugate methods. They use them in their system yes but so do many other people so it’s not like Westside owns those words. That’s silly. Everybody in this field borrows some things from other people including Coach Davies and the Westside folks. Nothing wrong with that.
fine. but why even mention it if it’s not put into place in the workout in question?
- Strength is a very broad word and 12-15 reps can enhance strength by improving motor skills/greasin’ the groove, etc. Strength is a learned skill that gets better with increased practice.
oh really???
What in your opinion is a better way to get “stronger?” Lifting a heavy load near your IRM?
YES!!!
The topic of the article is injury prevention and the last time I checked, lifting close to your 1RM will have a much higher likelihood of causing injuries than a light-medium weight lifted w/proper form-check the ego at the door when lifting weights and don’t lift too heavy unless you are professional power lifter-are you?
oh really???
Even if you are a professional powerlifter, the goal of the article is to include an injury proofing session into an athletes regimen.
really? then where do you think it fits best in a healthy athlete’s regimen?
- The focus of this article is “prehab” not “rehab” which is different.
yes i’m aware of the difference as i stated already. still there are elements in this workout that should be left in the rehab setting.
It’s about preventing as many injuries as possible before they occur. Coach Davies does address the most common problematic areas such as lower back/shoulder capsule. Static holds/stabilization IS a form of strength. Just look at gymnasts. Are they not “strong?” If it’s not a form of strength (again: there are many forms of strength, such as limit strength, speed strength, strength endurance, static, etc)then what is it?
then when he says “strength” in the article, what form of strength is he talking about because honestly, i don’t know.
You say that this program doesn’t address any unilateral weaknesses but a. it’s a very generalized program that can be suited to fit anybody’s needs b. the iron crosses are performed w/dumbbells which is unilateral (meaning single limb) as opposed to a barbell which would be bilateral.
uhhhhh, what?
most athletes have unilateral issues that effect the entire kinetic chain. take for instance a tight or weak erector spinae or a glute max or a supraspinatus.
If you don’t mind me asking, what’s your background and what are your goals? (powerlifting, bodybuilding, athlete, etc)
it’s irrelevant. suffice it to say i am a powerlifter. i want to compete for a long time thus i place great importance on keeping my body “bulletproofed” and i fully understand and appreciate the term and proper use of prehabilitation. but for an athlete or lay lifter that is not injured or overtrained why do something like this other than for funsies? an injured or beat down athlete’s not gonna be doing agility drills (mobility stuff yes) and renegade rope training. this type of thing is trying to accomplish so much that in the end, it accomplishes little than “make a person tired”.
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Again, the purpose of Coach Davies’s article isn’t solely to warm up, but also prehab which swings/iron crosses are tremendous movements regardless of why you do them. Doing swings/iron crosses enhance several things simultaneously IN ADDITION to warming you up and prehabbing you such as: enhances explosiveness, motor skills/coordination, strengthen posterior chain, etc.
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You are definitely being anal and picking at very minor details. How do you know if “most people doing these workouts are “true” renegades or not?” Ladders, etc are very beneficial to a variety of athletes and whether those athletes CHOOSE to incorporate them is up to them. Swings/iron crosses w/light weights are not that “neurally complex”, c’mon now!
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the benefits and reasons for doing tumbling, ladders, footwork drills, jump rope, hurdles ARE in the Football/extreme “X” book. I’ve got them!!!
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So what if Coach Davies doesn’t go into great detail about focus, supplemental as you say “blah blah blah” -what does that mean NOTHING. He still gives the reader ample reasons for doing the movements the prescribed way.
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YES REALLY! Just because you aren’t lifting a weight that’s near your 1RM doesn’t mean you won’t get “stronger”. What about lifting 30-60% at max speeds (which by the way Westside does too)and someone who can do 150 pushups and you can only do say 40 pushups-isn’t that person stronger than you? Yes he is-strength endurance or not there are many many many MANY forms of strength not just your total in the big 3 lifts in powerlifting-what about your rotational strength? Do you enhance that powerlifting? NO! What’s my point? That you have to do a variety of things and don’t limit yourself.
Where does it fit best in a healthy athletes regimen? What a silly question? It’s prehab work for everybody not just injured or unhealthy people.
What kind of strength is Coach D talking about in the article? explosive/endurance, strength endurance, speed strength, static strength, … need me to keep going?
One more time because you don’t seem to understand a very simple concept that drives the article-it’s a very generalized article designed for athletes or even everyday joes living life, to help PREVENT injuries not address them after they’ve occured. Injury prevention is a VERY important aspect of life, sports, lifting weights, etc and if you don’t address it by working on range of motion either statically/dynamically, strengthening key areas (lower back, core, hips, shoulder to name a few) and performing active recovery sessions to promote blood flow, then I hope you have a good physical therapist. Or maybe an injury will never happen to you because you are too strong:) Hahahahahah Let’s bet on it!
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
i don’t even know where to start so i’ll highlight a couple things in here that just don’t make sense. in his warmup we have weighted iron crosses, DB or KB swings, etc. THEN rope work. why not start with rope work with would effectively warm the body up for loading with the above exercises. this progression seems more logical. as for volume, lets not forget that the renegade has already performed several sets of tumbling, ladder drills, foot work, hurdles with and without kettlebells.[/quote]
Perhaps he has you do the weighted warmup first in order to get those specific muscle groups warmed up first, I don’t know since I didn’t write the article. Remember, he also said the weight used for these warmup exercises should be light for 12-15 reps coming no where near exhaustion. If the progression doesn’t seem logical to you, you can always change the order to fit your scheme-this is a fairly minor complaint, I think you’re nitpicking a little too much on this point.
I didn’t know conjugate periodization was copyrighted. The article said these were injury prevention methods to be incorporated into a larger scheme. Strength increase may not be the focus, instead strengthening the tendons in areas prone to injury are more likely the focus.
Unitlateral imbalances would more than likely be addressed by his speed-strength workouts where his(or JAvorek’s) complexes would be employed along with other lifts.
*From Man of Steel by John Davies:
However, within the supplemental area, we attack with the same ruthless approach as in any section and take preventative measures to strengthen areas most at risk. This is the area I’ll address here in this article. Generally, we’ll employ two to three exercises of three sets each with 12 to 15 reps (unless otherwise noted) from a grouping of movements found below. Particular exercise selection varies depending on whether there’s an existing weakness or whether it’s purely a preventative measure.
-Notice he says exercise selection varies, I’ll speculate and say there is room to correct unilateral imbalances if you so choose.
- What is all this “excess volume” y’all keep talking about? How is it excessive? How do you train? Don’t forget that Coach Davies builds the volume gradually. Overtraining is such a “weak” minded mentality and a buzz word by the way. Is a lumberjack concerned w/“overtraining” or does his livelihood depend on that? Same thing with a construction worker. Riddle me that batman.
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errr…how many lumberjacks and construction workers do you see that aren’t half broken down by the time they’re 50?
[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
- Davies is a fan of balance training which in my opinion there is no real use for other than rehab/prehab, entertainment. I remember a post or two at ST about increased VMO recruitment etc… But in general I think that the claims about improved balance are not valid… For some information on this, read ST list, Bill Hartmans post on this site (he had an argument with JPfitness) read Erics posts and check out the studies he posted…
I find statements like this to be silly
I like my athletes (particularly running-backs) to work on standing on a ball
Firstly because standing on a ball isnt hard, secondly because it wont achieve anything
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The balance training employed is a small part of his overall training package, it is like pulling a piston out of the engine and saying,“Look how uneven the top is.” I don’t personally agree with the swiss ball lifting either, however, labelling him as a balance guy doesn’t do him justice either since maybe 2% of his program involves this.
I’m not familiar with the overall program so I cannot comment except to say that programs with tapering volume are highly effective-that is high volume being done in the beginning and tapering towards the end of a cycle in order to see recovery and gains made.
While the intensity is higher in sports, the intensity issue should be addressed in the speed and conditioning portion of the program rather than during agility drills. I’ll agree that the ladder drills would not be as effective for high level athletes into middle of the season.
True, but a 500 lbs bench or 4.2 40 won’t get him sideline to sideline for an entire game. Balance between speed-strength and endurance is a must for athletes.
I’ll have to review that article, I didn’t realize it was 420 reps in a single workout.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
2. What is all this “excess volume” y’all keep talking about? How is it excessive? How do you train? Don’t forget that Coach Davies builds the volume gradually. Overtraining is such a “weak” minded mentality and a buzz word by the way. Is a lumberjack concerned w/“overtraining” or does his livelihood depend on that? Same thing with a construction worker. Riddle me that batman.
errr…how many lumberjacks and construction workers do you see that aren’t half broken down by the time they’re 50?
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A lot! You are telling me that good old fashioned hard work is bad for you? What a concept? Most construction workers/lumberjacks are much stronger than most bodybuilders and don’t even touch weights Slim jim had some great points that sounded a lot like mine.
I just reviewed the original Fat to Fire piece, and you were right about reps, but this was a weight-loss program. The goal seems to be aerobic in nature using weighted exercises in supersets with short rest. While not ideal for someone already in shape or seeking muscle gain, this would be a great program for an out-of-shape or fat, untrained person seeking to cut fat and acheive a good level of conditioning.
[quote]Chris Aus quote:
Anecdotes and quotes
Joe Defranco from his interview here… Some of what he said reminded me of someone
T-Nation: Agreed. You once took a shot at some other coaches, saying that any coach can make you tired, but it takes a true pro to make you stronger, faster, and more flexible.
JD: Yes, I made that statement and I stand by it. Athletes need to be aware of this. Unfortunately, they don?t always distinguish between getting tired and getting better.
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I don’t see Davies name mentioned anywhere in there, you may draw what conclusions you like, but this statement outlines no programs similar to Davies, so any comparisons inferred are by the reader.
One of the points John stresses in almost all of his articles is seeking exercises that will get the job done, not doing something for the sake of doing it or just because it is hard. He does seek a real-world transfer from training to the playing field.
Coach Davies has also made fun of functional training in his articles, again he seeks those exercises he feels will translate into bettering performance.
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T-Nation: You know, Joe, you should stop holding back and tell us what you really think. Just let it out and stop being so shy. Kidding. Let’s do move on before that vein in your bald head pops! I’ve heard you use the term “training economy” quite a bit. What do you mean by that?
JD: I first heard of this term a couple of years ago at a Charles Poliquin seminar. Basically, training economy refers to choosing the exercises that give you the best “bang for your buck” in training.
In other words, why would an athlete perform eight unproductive exercises and spend three hours in the gym, when he can get better results by doing four productive exercises and spending one hour in the gym? High school kids are the biggest culprits of not adhering to the training economy. Their exercise selection is usually a disgrace and they?re in the gym way too long. Then they wonder why their physiques never change or why they never get any stronger!
Athletes must also adhere to the training economy to prevent overtraining. You must remember that there?s more to an athlete?s training than just the weightroom. Spending too much time in the weightroom can end up being counterproductive to an athlete?s technical training, conditioning, etc.[/quote]
I cut off the rest of the quote cause this would be really long otherwise, while I reference Chris Aus’ post, it would be counterproductive to repost everything that was said, so if you need to, see his post above.
There are a few, I hesitate to call them conclusions, but if you guys will allow these “concessions” than maybe we can move on to other aspects:
The programs lacked variety, muscle and strength were lost in some cases; his program is not the only program you should use, but the GPP work was beneficial to about all of them[trainees], and overall the people who used his programs were better conditioned when finished with them.
I will spend more time giving a better response(I’ll try to find some evidence of my own) when I have a chance, but thanks for taking the time.
True, but a 500 lbs bench or 4.2 40 won’t get him sideline to sideline for an entire game. Balance between speed-strength and endurance is a must for athletes.
- The weightloss methods in the fat to fire article didnt seem very good. I much prefer CTs approach of trying to keep strength and muscle when dieting! I personally find 420 reps with 50% of your max in a single session to be a lot… That much with that weight while at or below maintenance is a great way to lose hard earned strength and power…
I’ll have to review that article, I didn’t realize it was 420 reps in a single workout.
The standing on the ball thing for balance is ONE of MANY ways to train w/imperfect conditions in addition to: closing your eyes while performing certain lifts (try a pistol/overhead squat while closing your eyes) lifting barefoot on different surfaces such as sand, grass, etc
VERY good point above about balancing endurance and speed-strength needs. Athletes need a variety of attributes not just a big bench press or power clean.
Actually one of the BEST ways to increase your power/strength is to utilize 30-60% of your 1RM and explode w/the weight. Contrary to popular belief or should I say “myth” lifting heavy heavy weights is not what it’s all about. Most people have poor form and use a weight that’s too heavy for them for the sake of showing off or having big poundages, etc. The focus should be more on improved performance over weightroom numbers anyways, and numbers in the weightroom will increase naturally over time anyways.
There’s no way I’m wading through these 200+ posts, so sorry if this seems off point.
Just wanted to add that, from what I’ve seen, John Davies is a good egg; a knowledgeable guy who goes out of his way to help anyone who asks.
And while you’ll never catch me doing squats on a Swiss Ball, I would be foolish to let that negate his other contributions.
[quote]BPC wrote:
A lot! You are telling me that good old fashioned hard work is bad for you? What a concept? Most construction workers/lumberjacks are much stronger than most bodybuilders and don’t even touch weights Slim jim had some great points that sounded a lot like mine.
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Comparing the loading of a occupation, to soemthing that most people add on top of their occupation is two different things. If any of you have worked in construction, you would reaslise how many apprentices get trashed in the first few weeks into the job, because they do not have teh ability to keep up. Even when they get to the level of other workers, they dont work up to a higher level, they generally do the bare minimum they can get away with.