The Brotherhood of Iron 1.0

Training Bodybuilding
882

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
ajweins, I have no “program” whatsoever, and ridiculously high frequency. I usually do 2-3 squat variations per week, along with on average 2 DL variations per week, no BS. I keep volume per bodypart very low normally, with the occasional slay-fest to shake things up.

But my training basically defines “instinctual”. [/quote]

Well then, now I feel like a pussy by just mentioning how I thought front squatting and back squatting along with daedlifts in one week may be too much.

I will definitely need to pack in some calories and not be afraid of adding a little fat, but since I have recently decided to start training for a powerlifting meet, I am not afraid. My body wants to sit around 210, so I can easily get into the 220 class by next year.

883

AJ just keep in mind that SUMO DL is a vastly different animal from regular conv dead, esp. if you almost completely stiff-leg your conv. dl… It’s much easier to keep the lower back arched/stress away from it when pulling sumo imo… Even at 300 (first time I hit that weight I couldn’t conv. dl worth shit and could only pull once a week or else I got into trouble with lower back recovery… Had trouble getting into DL position too, having my legs close and knees pointing forward just makes it nearly impossible for me without losing my arch…

Now going Sumo I can pull twice a week just fine (though currently I’m down to once a week as I want to improve some other areas). My best sumo DL is also so far above my best conv. dl it’s ridiculous… And that’s with bw being down to ~265-270 from ~300.

Also, how tall are you?

At ~220 you could probably rep ~600 about 5-6 times… If you pick whatever DL variation works best for you and train it right. Adjust for height etc…

H4M, why don’t you post your full sessions for the next week or two? Will make it easier for AJ to get some idea of how you go about things. And where’s your bench at these days?

884

Really quick session.

Starting to do calves twice per week because they look like pencils

toes pointed out calf press in leg machine
6+25 plates per sidex10-12

toes pointed in
6ppsx20…felt a strain on some reps in my hips?

elliptical 25 minutes

Shoulders and traps tomorrow. Can;t wait

885

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AJ just keep in mind that SUMO DL is a vastly different animal from regular conv dead, esp. if you almost completely stiff-leg your conv. dl… It’s much easier to keep the lower back arched/stress away from it when pulling sumo imo… Even at 300 (first time I hit that weight I couldn’t conv. dl worth shit and could only pull once a week or else I got into trouble with lower back recovery… Had trouble getting into DL position too, having my legs close and knees pointing forward just makes it nearly impossible for me without losing my arch…

Now going Sumo I can pull twice a week just fine (though currently I’m down to once a week as I want to improve some other areas). My best sumo DL is also so far above my best conv. dl it’s ridiculous… And that’s with bw being down to ~265-270 from ~300.

Also, how tall are you?

At ~220 you could probably rep ~600 about 5-6 times… If you pick whatever DL variation works best for you and train it right. Adjust for height etc…

H4M, why don’t you post your full sessions for the next week or two? Will make it easier for AJ to get some idea of how you go about things. And where’s your bench at these days?

[/quote]

I am 5’10", and I realize I didn’t keep my butt down as much as I should have, but I do feel better with conventional so I think I will stick with it. I just need to work on rocking back a little bit and I think that will help.

886

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AJ just keep in mind that SUMO DL is a vastly different animal from regular conv dead, esp. if you almost completely stiff-leg your conv. dl… It’s much easier to keep the lower back arched/stress away from it when pulling sumo imo… Even at 300 (first time I hit that weight I couldn’t conv. dl worth shit and could only pull once a week or else I got into trouble with lower back recovery… Had trouble getting into DL position too, having my legs close and knees pointing forward just makes it nearly impossible for me without losing my arch…

Now going Sumo I can pull twice a week just fine (though currently I’m down to once a week as I want to improve some other areas). My best sumo DL is also so far above my best conv. dl it’s ridiculous… And that’s with bw being down to ~265-270 from ~300.

Also, how tall are you?

At ~220 you could probably rep ~600 about 5-6 times… If you pick whatever DL variation works best for you and train it right. Adjust for height etc…
[/quote]

why is vastly difference especially if you have high stiff-leg numbers (compared to your conv. dead)? I thought sumo was more hamstrings so being really good at stiff legs would mean a high sumo?

question not particularly for you, is there much carryover from sumo to conventional? and is sumo well suited to a back day? since i am thinking of trying it but it doesn’t really have room in my legs day.

887

Hmmm. Pinch your shoulder blades together AFTER each lockout (before you go back down you release them back into regular DL position) (but don’t pull them down like when benching) when doing DL or Sumo DL or rack pulls if you want them to hit your back more… Even though you are not bent over then, this really seems to help with backthickness…

I do sumo’s on back day currently, works fine. Once I get close enough to my 1RM, I tend to semi-stiff-leg the sumos to some degree as well…

Sumo DL’s, especially with a wide stance, take a lot of adductor strength… Moreso than hams imo, though they brought my hams up a lot.

I was not talking about actual SLDL’s, but difference in conv. DL technique. Some people squat down more, others almost stiff-leg it.
Whenn doing something like a parillo SLDL (ham exercise), almost no one can get all the way down… Most won’t come past their knees or at least not much past… And you can’t use super high weights.

Of course you can work up to repping 600 on the actual semi-stiff leg deadlift, but imo that’s going to be far more low-back and ass than hams for most… You can see that a lot (I had the problem too): Someone SLDL’ing a ton but having shitty hamstrings.
For many, really hitting the hams with SLDL is difficult with heavier weights.

As for sumo to conv. carryover… Depends on technique used, width etc on both lifts… A wide-stance deep-squat-like sumo DL probably doesn’t carry over much to a stiff-legged conv. dl… And an almost stiff-legged sumo DL probably doesn’t do a lot for a deep-squatted conv. DL…

Personally I would pick one of the two and focus on it as a bodybuilder… If you train westside style or so, of course then it makes sense to mix and match every now and again… But I prefer picking what fits you best and going with it.

What does your leg day look like?

888

[quote]Fallen wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Awesome workout yesterday, PRed everything. Squatted 325x18 which for me is really good compared to 315x17 2 weeks ago and 325x10 last week. DB Rowed 160x5,5,5,5,10. Up 2lb from last week too and no increase in waist size. I swear everything works out better for me when I’m working out and eating at home for breaks compared to when I’m at college. My damn right arm is not moving along though :confused:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
It does, but you can’t exactly SLDL 600+ for reps now, can you? Which is entirely possible for someone at ~220-250 of average height on sumo’s or conventional(only if they’re built for the conv. dead).
If you can, you’re likely using anything but your hams…
[/quote]

I don’t know, I’ve always seemed to be able to SLDL as much (if not more…) than I can deadlift. [/quote]

Eh, for my sake its always been a after leg training movement. I’ve never gone heavier than 315 because it simply doesn’t work for me. I agree with C_C, after a certain level you’re using everything but your hams. Every douche that has confronted me about this…always has smaller legs than me. For a ham movement, I would only use as much weight as needed to keep it an effective ham movement. Anything else and youre being a brotard trying to train his legs. Much like the 32 plate and a midget ILS wonder that does 1/64th reps on the leg press.

[/quote]

I see your point, and I’ve seen others mention the same thing, but in that case you must be pretty far from failure right? I mean yesterday I worked up to a 3RM (415) and a 10RM (345) and both were all the way down and back up. I suppose I could have focused on even more of a stretch but still, my max is around 450-460 so I can’t see how never going above 315 would be enough for someone with a max of 500+

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
ajweins, I have no “program” whatsoever, and ridiculously high frequency. I usually do 2-3 squat variations per week, along with on average 2 DL variations per week, no BS. I keep volume per bodypart very low normally, with the occasional slay-fest to shake things up.

But my training basically defines “instinctual”. [/quote]

Is that how it is for all of your exercises? Any split set up or do you just go in and do what you think is ready to be worked that day?

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AJ just keep in mind that SUMO DL is a vastly different animal from regular conv dead, esp. if you almost completely stiff-leg your conv. dl… It’s much easier to keep the lower back arched/stress away from it when pulling sumo imo… Even at 300 (first time I hit that weight I couldn’t conv. dl worth shit and could only pull once a week or else I got into trouble with lower back recovery… Had trouble getting into DL position too, having my legs close and knees pointing forward just makes it nearly impossible for me without losing my arch…

Now going Sumo I can pull twice a week just fine (though currently I’m down to once a week as I want to improve some other areas). My best sumo DL is also so far above my best conv. dl it’s ridiculous… And that’s with bw being down to ~265-270 from ~300.
[/quote]

This is interesting, I’ve done sumo maybe 1 time but it’s not something I generally do. Does it have an advantage for certain types of people? I’m pretty tall (6’0"-6’1") with fairly long legs and an average sized torso. Sumo puts more emphasis on the legs?

889

[quote]ajweins wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AJ just keep in mind that SUMO DL is a vastly different animal from regular conv dead, esp. if you almost completely stiff-leg your conv. dl… It’s much easier to keep the lower back arched/stress away from it when pulling sumo imo… Even at 300 (first time I hit that weight I couldn’t conv. dl worth shit and could only pull once a week or else I got into trouble with lower back recovery… Had trouble getting into DL position too, having my legs close and knees pointing forward just makes it nearly impossible for me without losing my arch…

Now going Sumo I can pull twice a week just fine (though currently I’m down to once a week as I want to improve some other areas). My best sumo DL is also so far above my best conv. dl it’s ridiculous… And that’s with bw being down to ~265-270 from ~300.

Also, how tall are you?

At ~220 you could probably rep ~600 about 5-6 times… If you pick whatever DL variation works best for you and train it right. Adjust for height etc…

H4M, why don’t you post your full sessions for the next week or two? Will make it easier for AJ to get some idea of how you go about things. And where’s your bench at these days?

[/quote]

I am 5’10", and I realize I didn’t keep my butt down as much as I should have, but I do feel better with conventional so I think I will stick with it. I just need to work on rocking back a little bit and I think that will help.

[/quote]

Well, keeping the butt down or not depends on your preferences when it comes to conv. DL…

Still, I see lots of people injuring their spines on Conv.DL, but rarely do I hear about that from someone lifting sumo…

If you plan to DL twice a week, that’s just something to consider. Make sure you damn well listen to your body, if you can’t maintain a tight arch then call it a day, maybe train a bit lighter that day or whatever… Don’t push your luck.

890

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Of course you can work up to repping 600 on the actual semi-stiff leg deadlift, but imo that’s going to be far more low-back and ass than hams for most… You can see that a lot (I had the problem too): Someone SLDL’ing a ton but having shitty hamstrings.
For many, really hitting the hams with SLDL is difficult with heavier weights.
[/quote]

Hm, well I don’t want to be working my ass and lower back exclusively lol. I mean lower back work I guess would be good for squats. So is there any technique you would suggest with SLDL to make it work better for hams, do you still go to failure? I mean if someone can do 400x10 and do 315x10 how is that different than repping 225x10 on bench when they could do 315x10 going to failure, no one would really expect 225x10 there to get growth.

This is pretty similar to how I do them, he might be going a few inches lower but not much: http://www. YouTube (video wouldn’t show up so erase the space between www. and the rest)
Same here, but I come up all the way: straight leg deadlift - 260 kg - YouTube

Not sure exactly the difference between RDL and SLDL, always figured they were about the same.

891

C_C, since you do sumos on back day, whats your setup so it hits the back well? I want to start deadlifting again, but my lower cant take squatting and deadlifitng in the same week (probably due to my weak abs, which im working on, but still). Whenever I do, my squat stability goes to hell, so it sounds like sumo is the best alternative.

Speaking of, today was back day.

T-Bar Rows 1 plate x 15, 2 plates x 12, 2 and a quarter x 10, 3 plates x 11
Single Arm Pulldown Machine - 110 x 10, 140 x 10, 180 x 9
V-Handle Cable Row 100x12, 145x10, 160x8
Pull ups
Pulldowns 100x10, 130x10
Shrugs 135x15, 225x10, 275x8 then immediately did 135x40something
Pulldown Abs

I’m still trying to get a good mind muscle connection with my back during rows. I can do t bars fine without using too much bicep involvement, but when I do cable rows, my biceps are involved too much. I’m trying to find the right groove with these, probably need to go lighter and just really concentrate on my back contracting.

Hell i just need better overall mind muscle connection with my entire back. How did you guys get to the point where you could flex your lats easily and feel your back working during rows?

892

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Hmmm. Pinch your shoulder blades together AFTER each lockout (before you go back down you release them back into regular DL position) (but don’t pull them down like when benching) when doing DL or Sumo DL or rack pulls if you want them to hit your back more… Even though you are not bent over then, this really seems to help with backthickness…

I do sumo’s on back day currently, works fine. Once I get close enough to my 1RM, I tend to semi-stiff-leg the sumos to some degree as well…

Sumo DL’s, especially with a wide stance, take a lot of adductor strength… Moreso than hams imo, though they brought my hams up a lot.

I was not talking about actual SLDL’s, but difference in conv. DL technique. Some people squat down more, others almost stiff-leg it.
Whenn doing something like a parillo SLDL (ham exercise), almost no one can get all the way down… Most won’t come past their knees or at least not much past… And you can’t use super high weights.

Of course you can work up to repping 600 on the actual semi-stiff leg deadlift, but imo that’s going to be far more low-back and ass than hams for most… You can see that a lot (I had the problem too): Someone SLDL’ing a ton but having shitty hamstrings.
For many, really hitting the hams with SLDL is difficult with heavier weights.

As for sumo to conv. carryover… Depends on technique used, width etc on both lifts… A wide-stance deep-squat-like sumo DL probably doesn’t carry over much to a stiff-legged conv. dl… And an almost stiff-legged sumo DL probably doesn’t do a lot for a deep-squatted conv. DL…

Personally I would pick one of the two and focus on it as a bodybuilder… If you train westside style or so, of course then it makes sense to mix and match every now and again… But I prefer picking what fits you best and going with it.

What does your leg day look like?
[/quote]

Thanks for that. I have pretty similar sentiments to pumped regarding SLDLs (in fact we have practically identical numbers). I mean, after doing them I can barely walk and my hamstrings are really fatigued, never feel the glutes, lower back yeah a little bit but sometimes not at all. That’s why I started doing them on a box though, just so I can really focus on the hams and it is less draining.

Leg days at the moment are alternating (because I seem to keep stalling out on everything lately so I’m trying to avoid that mostly via suggestion from h4m)

One workout:

Back Squats
Squat Machine/Leg Press
Single-leg extensions
Leg curls
Seated calf raises
Standing calf raises

the other one

SLDLs
Squat Machine/Leg Press
Leg Extensions
Single-leg leg curls
Seated calf raises
Standing calf raises

I am not that strict with calf raises, it’s only the last month or so that I started training them and maybe 2 or 3 times before that

893

Ok fine fine C_C.

Today’s session, best I can remember:

Bench:
135x8
185x6
225x4
275x3
315x4

Shrugs:
135x12
225x10
315x5
405x5
495x15

RGBP:
135x8
185x6
225x3
265x7

Plate-Loaded Chest Press Machine:
2ppsx10ish
3ppsx8
4ppsx5
4pps+25’sx9

Overhead DB Extensions

70x10
90x6
105x10

And I think that was it today. I’ll try to keep this consistent for a couple weeks.

894

[quote]eggowned wrote:
I’m still trying to get a good mind muscle connection with my back during rows. I can do t bars fine without using too much bicep involvement, but when I do cable rows, my biceps are involved too much. I’m trying to find the right groove with these, probably need to go lighter and just really concentrate on my back contracting.

Hell i just need better overall mind muscle connection with my entire back. How did you guys get to the point where you could flex your lats easily and feel your back working during rows?[/quote]

focus on pulling your elbows back (or down) on back movements, that helps, as does a suicide grip imo. I rarely if ever feel any back movement in my biceps except pullups (and I feel that a hell of a lot in my lats), it’s only really when my grip starts to give out that I start to feel my biceps at all, so if you used straps that might help you. In lat movements I feel slightly more biceps (especially if grip is really beat) than thickness ones, so if you’re using a V handle on your cable rows that might be why you get a lot of bicep involvement - I find with a V handle cable rows are more of a lat exercise.

anyway, I would try

using straps
focusing on elbows moving
suicide grip

I found it really hard to get a pump/feel it working in my back for ages in rows, it wasn’t until I got to heavier weights that I started to get one… but I have always flexed my lats, even as I’m typing this I’m flexing my lats like some kind of lat-flexing-weirdo. I heard waylanderxx say he did the same but with abs and now his abs are really good, wish the same was true for my lats. Anyway it seems weird for someone to find it hard to flex their lats, so I am not the best person to ask, but for me the mind-muscle connection came with time. I’m sure guys like CC will be able to offer much better advice on a subject like this.

895

@CC: sorry to be asking so many questions, is there are general rule that short people are better for conventional or sumo (I’m 5’5")? I am not sure if I have a long torso/legs/whatever, I never understood how people could notice that, to myself I just look normal!

896

Did some legs… Thank god for this pup and the daily walking. It has pretty much cured my former leg injury (Knock wood.) Now I just need April 16th to come so I can get some sleep and back on a quality diet.

Weird thing from today, from my first set to my last my body just ached. Little nicks, pings and sores everywhere. Strange.

897

Fully agree with Sumo i freaking love that exercise.

Sumo is now 80 kg higher than my Conv Dead … so ye lol though i must admit to all but banishing the Conv Dead from the BBB.

898

[quote]babaganoosh wrote:
@CC: sorry to be asking so many questions, is there are general rule that short people are better for conventional or sumo (I’m 5’5")? I am not sure if I have a long torso/legs/whatever, I never understood how people could notice that, to myself I just look normal![/quote]

Taller you are more suited to Sumo you are i would think.

Just how your arms and legs are aligned !

Damn smallies !

899

pullups shoulder width +30kg 2x3
ez bar curl bar+45kg x3
kroc row db handle+60kg x16 RL

900

Mutation Series Part 3 Starts Monday

901

[quote]SmallToBig wrote:

[quote]babaganoosh wrote:
@CC: sorry to be asking so many questions, is there are general rule that short people are better for conventional or sumo (I’m 5’5")? I am not sure if I have a long torso/legs/whatever, I never understood how people could notice that, to myself I just look normal![/quote]

Taller you are more suited to Sumo you are i would think.

Just how your arms and legs are aligned !

Damn smallies ![/quote]

Drunk? LOL