[quote]Xeneize wrote:
I gotta respect Ricky Hatton… the man came over here to test himself against the best and he didn’t fight some aging legend… he went after the best. Yes, he got waxed but at least the man had the courage to get into the ring with a dominant champion in his prime.[/quote]
Mikel Kessler and Jeff Lacy were young champions in their prime. They don’t count? Hatton has waxed his fair share of bums.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Xeneize wrote:
If Calzaghe fights a young stud like Pavlik or Dawson and beats them up, then no one can argue his greatness, but beating up on old legends… what does that prove? After all, Hector Camacho beat up Sugar Ray Leonard… doesn’t make him great.
Find me a single great boxer who didn’t help get his name out by beating up on an old timer. This was a fucking fight of the century compared to Marciano-Joe Louis or Holmes-Ali or most of Tyson’s fights in the late 80’s. Joe has fought Jeff Lacy, Bika, and Kessler in the past few fights. Manfredo doesn’t count, lol. That’s a great resume, and saying he is isn’t out there fighting the best is turning a blind eye to his recent accomplishments. B Hop just beat the undisputed light heavyweight champion of the world, so surely he wasn’t as washed up as you are making him out to be.
[/quote]
Man, Hopkins looked bad in this fight. He looked so gassed by Round 5… it was like watching a different fighter… like all those years caught up in three minutes.
I’ll give you that; everyone has to beat up on the old champs. Maybe it’s an America-centric viewpoint I have (well, I’m sure it is), but to me, you gotta come here and fight the best. He did that last night. Fair enough. But if people want to put him, as I’ve heard people say, as “one of the best pound for pound of all time”… well, he’s got a long goddamn way to go.
Although some boxing writers are just delusional, so I may be just reacting to what I consider ridiculousness.
[quote]
Fight Pavlik? Pavlik is fighting John-fucking Duddy. Talk about not fighting the best…[/quote]
Which sucks, because as I’m sure you could’ve figured, I love John Duddy… but he’s going to get mauled. This is a tune up fight, you know that… he’s got lots of big fights in the next few years- everyone’s going to want a crack at’em.
What I see in boxing is infuriating me. Mayweather-Delahoya II, RJJ vs. Trinidad, RJJ vs. Calzaghe, Hatton-Mayweather II (although I’m kind of excited for that)… but people aren’t fighting who they should be. Pretty Boy needs to fight Cotto, Trinidad shoulda stayed retired, and that nancy boy DeLaHoya needs to either promote or fight, but not have this half assed boxing career where he fights a journeyman and Floyd Mayweather every year. Hatton needs to knock that punk cunt Malignaggi out, and get back to king of Jr. welterweights.
Ughh… just frustrating. Sorry guys.
[quote]Xeneize wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
rowe wrote:
“Fighting Irish”
You can say all you want about Joe Calzaghe- he was far from great last night, he knows that himself,but the fact is, he is 45-0.
I’m sure once he beats another big name next he’ll make people like you eat your words.
Exactly. Mikkel Kessler is better than B-Hop right now, better than Pavlik, and better than Jermain. Joe beat him. Joe would embarrass any of the cast of fools out there left. Failure to recognize that is just petty hating. You can hate his slap attack all you want, but it’s funny that you gloss over B-Hop’s “LUNGE AND CLINCH” for 12 rounds that made that fight a bore.
Let Joe make his money and fight RJJ. Hes earned it, he’s the best out there.
No one is saying that Calzaghe is a bum. I never once mentioned “slapping” punches. As for B-Hop’s “Lunge and clinch,” you are right about what he did, but that’s all that the 43-year-old geezer has the energy to do these days, which is why he should friggin retire. Actually, he should have retired after beating Tarver.
But he wanted to fight Joe, and he got what he deserved. I scored it 115-111 for Calzaghe.
If Calzaghe fights a young stud like Pavlik or Dawson and beats them up, then no one can argue his greatness, but beating up on old legends… what does that prove? After all, Hector Camacho beat up Sugar Ray Leonard… doesn’t make him great.[/quote]
Still, Calzaghe did beat an undefeated Lacy up who was considered a young stud at the time. Calzaghe would’ve been hated on no matter the outcome in this fight.
If he lost to Hopkins, everyone would’ve said “oh, that’s what was supposed to happen. He’s never faced good competition overseas.” Now after winning, everyone says Hopkins is too old and that he didn’t knock him out. If Hopkins didn’t hold him after every punch, Joe would’ve flailed away at will. BTW, I wanted Hopkins to win.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Find me a single great boxer who didn’t help get his name out by beating up on an old timer. This was a fucking fight of the century compared to Marciano-Joe Louis or Holmes-Ali or most of Tyson’s fights in the late 80’s.[/quote]
Marciano was 28 when he fought Louis. Holmes was 30 when he fought Ali. Both of those fights, like Calzaghe-Hopkins are fights that never should have happened. But the difference is, look at their ages, we’re talking about all-time greats in their primes. Calzaghe is 36… a young 36 but still not at his prime. If he wants to be thought of as an all-time legend, then he needs to fight the top dogs out there, not big-name relics. Beating Hopkins or RJJ (which I predict he would do) would prove what exactly?
The point is, Calzaghe wasn’t too keen on tangling with these big names 5-10 years ago.
Lacy is one-dimensional, Bika is a journeyman. Kessler was a good fighter, and Calzaghe deserves a lot of credit for that win. Joe’s greatest attribute may be his intelligence and adaptability in the ring… and he fought smartly against Lacy and Kessler and really made them look foolish.
On a short list of the world’s top fighters, I don’t think anyone is saying Calzaghe isn’t pretty high on that list.
B-Hop fought Tarver almost 2 years ago. When you’re in your 40s, that’s a long time in boxing years. His deterioration since then is noticeable. Don’t think that escaped Calzaghe’s eye, either.
Come on, when Calzaghe was Pavlik’s age, he was busy fighting the fearsome Rick Thornberrys and Branko Sobots of the world.
Maybe when Pavlik destroys Duddy and Calzaghe whips his next rusted-out, withering-husk of a legend, then we can see a real fight.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
What I see in boxing is infuriating me. Mayweather-Delahoya II, RJJ vs. Trinidad, RJJ vs. Calzaghe, Hatton-Mayweather II (although I’m kind of excited for that)… but people aren’t fighting who they should be. Pretty Boy needs to fight Cotto, Trinidad shoulda stayed retired, and that nancy boy DeLaHoya needs to either promote or fight, but not have this half assed boxing career where he fights a journeyman and Floyd Mayweather every year. Hatton needs to knock that punk cunt Malignaggi out, and get back to king of Jr. welterweights.
[/quote]
This is the real point here. The fans are the ones who get screwed by these BS fights that should have occurred years ago. This has been the bane of boxing since the mid-80s, when people started becoming afraid to lose and avoided each other at all costs. It’s refreshing when you finally get the fights that should be happening… I can’t wait for Cotto-Margarito, for example. If people want to proclaim their greatness, then step up and whoop the best out there. It’s the way it used to be and the way it ought to be.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
nothingclever wrote:
That fight was such shit I felt like my eyes were going to bleed. Who wants to watch two guys hugging each other 90% of the time and then throwing extremely shitty punches in general?
I have many issues.
Joe Cortez sucks. He sucks multiple dicks every day of the week. Let these fucking guys fight, every time they lean too close that motherfucker was running in. Neither of them are really infighters, but it certainly fucked Hatton up, and he made this fight miserable.
Hopkins set the pace for that fight. He countered well initially, but showed his age. Calzaghe won the last rounds because Hopkins gassed out and showed every bit of his 43 years. In his prime, I’m convinced that he would have murdered Calzaghe.
I’m not impressed with Calzaghe. That bitch slap manner of fighting sucks ass, it fools the judges into thinking that you’re winning when in reality he might have hurt Hopkins maybe once. Complete bullshit.
Hopkins stopped landing his right, and wasn’t throwing hooks. He lost that fight more than Joe won it.
I like Joe Calzaghe. Seems like a good, humble guy. But I will never root for a guy who slaps in a boxing match. Disgusting.
This motherfucker wants to prove he’s the best, let’s throw him in with Kelly and see how far he gets. Fifth round KO.
I’m disgusted.[/quote]
irish, i will not touch most of what you said, but i will comment on the last thing.
i agree, kelly wins that fight with a BIG piss yourself brain rattleing ko IF the fight is at 160lbs.
why?
here is my take on pavlik, i am sure it si debatable, just my opinion:
kelly is a sort of physical freak at middleweight. very tall and strong. not many 6 feet 2 inch guys can make 160 easily without being too drained like he does.
other that that, kelly is a pretty ordinary “good” fighter.
good chin, good power, good fundamentals(throws lots of straight punches down the pike, keeps his guard up) good defence, good footwork. he does everything GOOD, but not great. BUT, combine the fact he is a size mismatch with most other middleweights, and he is a champion.
light heavy, those advantages are gone. he will fight guys who walk around near 200lbs, many over 6 feet tall, and i dont see him as a force in that division, same to a lesser degree for 168.
discuss?
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
rowe wrote:
“Fighting Irish”
You can say all you want about Joe Calzaghe- he was far from great last night, he knows that himself,but the fact is, he is 45-0.
I’m sure once he beats another big name next he’ll make people like you eat your words.
Exactly. Mikkel Kessler is better than B-Hop right now, better than Pavlik, and better than Jermain. Joe beat him. Joe would embarrass any of the cast of fools out there left. Failure to recognize that is just petty hating. You can hate his slap attack all you want, but it’s funny that you gloss over B-Hop’s “LUNGE AND CLINCH” for 12 rounds that made that fight a bore.
Let Joe make his money and fight RJJ. Hes earned it, he’s the best out there.[/quote]
very good donut,
i agree. if all joe does is “slap”, then why dont these guys just go forward, wade through all those piter-pat punches, and knock him the fuck out? dont strain your brain, i will answer for you, mixed in with those 4-6 slaps, he lets loose a hard one that does damage, and unless your name is livingtone bramble, you have a natural instinct to want to avoid getting hit in the head too much.
and also, you are correct, when B-Hop holds and hits in the clinch, he is “crafty” and “smart”, “good defence”, WHAT THE FUCK??? Wlad K. holds and he is a bitch. joe c. pitter pats and he is a bitch. get real folks.
[quote]Xeneize wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
What I see in boxing is infuriating me. Mayweather-Delahoya II, RJJ vs. Trinidad, RJJ vs. Calzaghe, Hatton-Mayweather II (although I’m kind of excited for that)… but people aren’t fighting who they should be. Pretty Boy needs to fight Cotto, Trinidad shoulda stayed retired, and that nancy boy DeLaHoya needs to either promote or fight, but not have this half assed boxing career where he fights a journeyman and Floyd Mayweather every year. Hatton needs to knock that punk cunt Malignaggi out, and get back to king of Jr. welterweights.
This is the real point here. The fans are the ones who get screwed by these BS fights that should have occurred years ago. This has been the bane of boxing since the mid-80s, when people started becoming afraid to lose and avoided each other at all costs. It’s refreshing when you finally get the fights that should be happening… I can’t wait for Cotto-Margarito, for example. If people want to proclaim their greatness, then step up and whoop the best out there. It’s the way it used to be and the way it ought to be.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i agree, kelly wins that fight with a BIG piss yourself brain rattleing ko IF the fight is at 160lbs.
[/quote]
Joe has never weighed less than 168 in his career, so I don’t think we’ll ever see that fight at 160. Pavlik will have to come up, and as you pointed out, lose a lot of the advantages that make him a freak at middleweight.
yep, if kelly just wants to make money, he will move up and take some of the big name fights, if he wants to try to become one of the top fighters of all time, he needs to stay at 160 and be the best middleweight he can be.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Shire wrote:
Calzaghe is truly a great boxer. Its a bloody shame he doesn’t get more recognition.
No he isn’t. He couldn’t knock out a dead horse. Hand speed is nothing without power. [/quote]
Go meet him and ask for a punch, i’m sure you won’t be disappointed 
Everyone knows Calzaghe has hand speed, Calzaghe himself said this in a BBC interview. But no one cares as he wins everytime and that’s what counts.
Be fair.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
rowe wrote:
“Fighting Irish”
You can hate his slap attack all you want, but it’s funny that you gloss over B-Hop’s “LUNGE AND CLINCH” for 12 rounds that made that fight a bore.
Let Joe make his money and fight RJJ. Hes earned it, he’s the best out there.[/quote]
Calzaghe said he was very disappointed with how that fight went (boring to watch).
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
here is my take on pavlik, i am sure it si debatable, just my opinion:
kelly is a sort of physical freak at middleweight. very tall and strong. not many 6 feet 2 inch guys can make 160 easily without being too drained like he does.
other that that, kelly is a pretty ordinary “good” fighter.
good chin, good power, good fundamentals(throws lots of straight punches down the pike, keeps his guard up) good defence, good footwork. he does everything GOOD, but not great. BUT, combine the fact he is a size mismatch with most other middleweights, and he is a champion.
light heavy, those advantages are gone. he will fight guys who walk around near 200lbs, many over 6 feet tall, and i dont see him as a force in that division, same to a lesser degree for 168.
discuss?
[/quote]
That’s a pretty good take on Pavlik. I suppose the key would be to see if he can take his power with him at 168 or 175. Some fighters keep their punch, others find it a lot harder to hurt people at a higher weight.
He does seem to have freakish power in his shots, so maybe he’s one of the lucky ones.
I’m with you, he’s probably not the force at 175 that he is at middleweight.
[quote]Xeneize wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
here is my take on pavlik, i am sure it si debatable, just my opinion:
kelly is a sort of physical freak at middleweight. very tall and strong. not many 6 feet 2 inch guys can make 160 easily without being too drained like he does.
other that that, kelly is a pretty ordinary “good” fighter.
good chin, good power, good fundamentals(throws lots of straight punches down the pike, keeps his guard up) good defence, good footwork. he does everything GOOD, but not great. BUT, combine the fact he is a size mismatch with most other middleweights, and he is a champion.
light heavy, those advantages are gone. he will fight guys who walk around near 200lbs, many over 6 feet tall, and i dont see him as a force in that division, same to a lesser degree for 168.
discuss?
That’s a pretty good take on Pavlik. I suppose the key would be to see if he can take his power with him at 168 or 175. Some fighters keep their punch, others find it a lot harder to hurt people at a higher weight.
He does seem to have freakish power in his shots, so maybe he’s one of the lucky ones.
I’m with you, he’s probably not the force at 175 that he is at middleweight.
[/quote]
You saw him fight Taylor at 166. Taylor stayed clear of that right hand in that fight, and respected Kelly’s power far more, and that’s why he lasted the whole bout as opposed to being KO’d in Round 7.
Kelly is still brutal at 168. At 175, I suspect that he will not suffer either. I truly think we are watching a gifted fighter in Kelly Pavlik- him surviving that Round 2 knockdown against Taylor was incredible, and showed a lot of heart. And he came back in the second fight even better.
It’s going to be a shorter infighter that will give him trouble, not the long limbed mirror fighter. When he fights a guy like that, then we’ll see.
Hopkins-Calzaghe reminded me why boxing sucks. They have a rule against clinching and point deductions to enforce it. The refs need to use it or you end up with guys just grabbing a hold of the other dude…if they want to allow that, they might as well just start fighting MMA.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
Hopkins-Calzaghe reminded me why boxing sucks. They have a rule against clinching and point deductions to enforce it. The refs need to use it or you end up with guys just grabbing a hold of the other dude…if they want to allow that, they might as well just start fighting MMA.[/quote]
Joe Cortes is the shittiest referee in boxing. How the fuck that incompetent jackbag still gets to ref major fights like this is beyond me. Many other suitable refs would have made that fight much better.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Hopkins-Calzaghe reminded me why boxing sucks. They have a rule against clinching and point deductions to enforce it. The refs need to use it or you end up with guys just grabbing a hold of the other dude…if they want to allow that, they might as well just start fighting MMA.
Joe Cortes is the shittiest referee in boxing. How the fuck that incompetent jackbag still gets to ref major fights like this is beyond me. Many other suitable refs would have made that fight much better.[/quote]
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that.
Rarely is a ref so blatantly inept…
Bernard Hopkin’s fights are ugly. I think if you want to study boxing then watch Hopkins. If you are looking for entertainment you are not going to get it.
Calzaghe doesn’t have crushing power but I don’t think that is any reason to hate on him. He does everything else great. I don’t see how Calzaghe was going to look good in this fight. He is a southpaw fighting Hopkins, it was destined to be ugly.
I think Calzaghe is the favorite over anybody between 160 and 175. Maybe Glen Johnson gives him a good fight but you know Glen is not getting a decision from the judges…ever.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Xeneize wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
here is my take on pavlik, i am sure it si debatable, just my opinion:
kelly is a sort of physical freak at middleweight. very tall and strong. not many 6 feet 2 inch guys can make 160 easily without being too drained like he does.
other that that, kelly is a pretty ordinary “good” fighter.
good chin, good power, good fundamentals(throws lots of straight punches down the pike, keeps his guard up) good defence, good footwork. he does everything GOOD, but not great. BUT, combine the fact he is a size mismatch with most other middleweights, and he is a champion.
light heavy, those advantages are gone. he will fight guys who walk around near 200lbs, many over 6 feet tall, and i dont see him as a force in that division, same to a lesser degree for 168.
discuss?
That’s a pretty good take on Pavlik. I suppose the key would be to see if he can take his power with him at 168 or 175. Some fighters keep their punch, others find it a lot harder to hurt people at a higher weight.
He does seem to have freakish power in his shots, so maybe he’s one of the lucky ones.
I’m with you, he’s probably not the force at 175 that he is at middleweight.
You saw him fight Taylor at 166. Taylor stayed clear of that right hand in that fight, and respected Kelly’s power far more, and that’s why he lasted the whole bout as opposed to being KO’d in Round 7.
Kelly is still brutal at 168. At 175, I suspect that he will not suffer either. I truly think we are watching a gifted fighter in Kelly Pavlik- him surviving that Round 2 knockdown against Taylor was incredible, and showed a lot of heart. And he came back in the second fight even better.
It’s going to be a shorter infighter that will give him trouble, not the long limbed mirror fighter. When he fights a guy like that, then we’ll see.[/quote]
Good thoughts. I suspect Pavlik is one of these freaks who just hits a hell of a lot harder than opponents think he does, and then they taste his power.
At 6-2 1/2, he certainly has the frame to fill out to light-heavy… the x-factor is when he fights guys who are naturally at that weight who pound pretty hard right back.
In any case, I enjoy watching him fight.
[quote]otoko wrote:
I think Calzaghe is the favorite over anybody between 160 and 175. Maybe Glen Johnson gives him a good fight but you know Glen is not getting a decision from the judges…ever.
[/quote]
I would not consider Calzaghe the favorite over Chad Dawson. I believe I would against just about anyone else.
You are right about Johnson… that poor dude never gets a damn decision!