The Bodybuilding Bible

Training Bodybuilding
441

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]mohamedhz wrote:
Do you believe that bodybuilding style training
is the best way to generally maximize hypertrophy
and turn your average skinny guy big (of course
with the proper nutrition as a given)?
And of course the type of split for the skinny guy
generally depends on the person and things like
recovery ability if i’m not mistaken.[/quote]

Who are the most jacked people on earth? Bodybuilders![/quote]

But… They ALL have super-duper-genetics… And… AND DRUGS!!!111

So logically your average joe should base his training on what ATHLETES do! (who probably have even better genetics, do nothing but eat and train and get paid ridiculous amounts for that and have worked up to super-crazy workloads from childhood on and likely also use… And still are way less jacked on average)

Really brick. Can you not see the logic in this? :slight_smile:

442

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]mohamedhz wrote:
Do you believe that bodybuilding style training
is the best way to generally maximize hypertrophy
and turn your average skinny guy big (of course
with the proper nutrition as a given)?
And of course the type of split for the skinny guy
generally depends on the person and things like
recovery ability if i’m not mistaken.[/quote]

Who are the most jacked people on earth? Bodybuilders![/quote]

Poets :wink:

In other news, why hasn’t this thread been stickied?

443

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]mohamedhz wrote:
Do you believe that bodybuilding style training
is the best way to generally maximize hypertrophy
and turn your average skinny guy big (of course
with the proper nutrition as a given)?
And of course the type of split for the skinny guy
generally depends on the person and things like
recovery ability if i’m not mistaken.[/quote]

Who are the most jacked people on earth? Bodybuilders![/quote]

Poets :wink:

In other news, why hasn’t this thread been stickied?[/quote]

It is at the very top of The Best of T-Nation sticky. I think it has had a positive affect, too.

Typically what I see are new threads by beginners, or beginners PMing me asking me the most basic questions about training and why this and why that, but now most of what I’m getting are novice guys who have read the Bodybuilding Bible and simply want to run a routine by me that they created based on these principles.

Just goes to show that having valuable information stickied in the bodybuilding forum was very long overdue.

444

Brick, Sento, CC and other successful guys,

I didn’t remember a post on this thread about it, but do you ever feel a need to cycle/periodize your training with high volume/low volume, higher reps(10-12 range)/lower reps(4-6 range) or anything else like that? Some authors write about the body adapting to the rep range etc.

I’m also assuming that you don’t feel that a certain volume(total reps) of work on an exercise must be reached to distinguish between pure strength gains and strength gains with muscle growth. I just keep hearing guys talking about how there needs to be an adequate volume for growth. If you don’t get enough volume in you will only get stronger and not maximize growth.

445

[quote]ANIMAL M0THER wrote:

I’m also assuming that you don’t feel that a certain volume(total reps) of work on an exercise must be reached to distinguish between pure strength gains and strength gains with muscle growth. I just keep hearing guys talking about how there needs to be an adequate volume for growth. If you don’t get enough volume in you will only get stronger and not maximize growth.[/quote]

HUH?!

446

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]ANIMAL M0THER wrote:

I’m also assuming that you don’t feel that a certain volume(total reps) of work on an exercise must be reached to distinguish between pure strength gains and strength gains with muscle growth. I just keep hearing guys talking about how there needs to be an adequate volume for growth. If you don’t get enough volume in you will only get stronger and not maximize growth.[/quote]

HUH?![/quote]

Sorry. I’m having trouble simplifying my question. Let me try again.

I’m talking about two things here:

  1. Cycling training volume: Do you feel it’s necessary to change volume when/if progress stagnates? If not, do you feel that the rep range that the work set should be cycled?
  2. Do you think that training volume(setsxreps) determines the training effect or does the rep range?

Personally, I never follow a set volume or set up, ie: 3x12, 5x5. I just work up to a top set and like all my warmup/rampup sets to stay at about 5 reps. Then an all out set and maybe a back off set. So I guess I can’t really manipulate volume. The one thing I can do is manipulate the rep range of the work set. Ex: after 8 weeks of working up to a top work set in the 10-12 range, I hit a wall and can’t get more reps or add weight.

So I add a bunch more weight and decide to only work up to a top set in the 4-6 rep range and keep doing that until progress stops.

I’m just saying that I’ve read stuff by guys like Cosgrove who state that the body will adapt to a rep range and that it must be cycled to avoid stagnation. CT calls this cycling intensification and accumulation.

447

You’re thinking to hard about it. Find a rep range that works for you and stick with it. When it stops working then switch and see if it helps.

448
  1. I discussed periodization for bodybuilders in the first few pages of this thread and gave my outlook on it. Bodybuilders DON’T use periodization in the literal sense of that word as used in the athletic training and fitness world. I already wrote how I’d build up (try to set records in reps or weight) over the course of 5 to 6 weeks and then make no attempt to do so for 2 weeks and would actually train 1 or 2 reps shy of failure. I don’t know of ONE successful bodybuilder that uses formal periodization schemes.

Yes, some have noticed certain rep ranges worked better for them at a certain time of their career (most train with higher reps as they get older in training age) or for certain muscle groups (eg, high reps for quads). Go ask most bodybuilders about intricate periodization schemes and they won’t even know what the fuck you’re talking about.

  1. Dude, I know we’re on good terms here, but did you seriously ask me if different rep ranges have different training effects?! Your question is actually unquantifiable also because you can have two rep schemes yielding the same volume (total reps, MAYBE tonnage in some cases) and have VERY different training effects (eg, 10 x 3 used for max effort work; 10 x 3 used for speed work; 3 x 10 used for size - all yield 30 total reps but produce different training effects and are completely different in actual physical application).

AFTER ALL, if becoming extremely strong and powerful just warranted a large amount of volume, powerlifters wouldn’t be risking physical injury and putting themselves through mental drudgery with 1 to 3 rep maxes in training.

And let’s get this straight! Doing a maximal set of 10 reps is NOTHING like doing a maximal set of 1 rep! The execution is VASTLY different. So if you want to get VERY strong (like a powerlifter) you must train the key lifts with low reps (max effort). Likewise, if for some strange reason someone wanted to be some awesome repper, they better train with sets of 15 to 20.

So these training effects are NOT just a question of some measures of volume.

You’re stuck with that wall because you are in a position in which you don’t manipulate volume but also are NOT backing off for 1 or 2 weeks and are attempting to break a plateau by simply adding more weight and lowering the rep range. Perhaps this can work for some time or in some situations, but it’s not how I’ve done things. But I don’t tell people what to do, and I’m just telling you how I PERSONALLY do things.

With all this writing I’ve done, I love to keep life simple and not have to worry about any of this shit, which is why I started this thread.

Here’s how I keep life simple:

To get strong in a key lift: Work up to a 1 to 5 rep max.

To get quick in a lift: Speed work with 40 to 60 percent of the max or plyometrics, usually done with 10 x3.

To get big like a bodybuilder (also used for assistance exercises in a strength/athletic program): 3 - 4 x 6 to 12.

Thank god I can follow these 3 simple guidelines. Otherwise I’d never go into a gym, as my hobby would be destroyed!

449

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]mohamedhz wrote:
Do you believe that bodybuilding style training
is the best way to generally maximize hypertrophy
and turn your average skinny guy big (of course
with the proper nutrition as a given)?
And of course the type of split for the skinny guy
generally depends on the person and things like
recovery ability if i’m not mistaken.[/quote]

Who are the most jacked people on earth? Bodybuilders![/quote]

But… They ALL have super-duper-genetics… And… AND DRUGS!!!111

So logically your average joe should base his training on what ATHLETES do! (who probably have even better genetics, do nothing but eat and train and get paid ridiculous amounts for that and have worked up to super-crazy workloads from childhood on and likely also use… And still are way less jacked on average)

Really brick. Can you not see the logic in this? :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Exactly!

I love how everyone thinks that bodybuilders are somehow the group that got blessed with the most stellar genetics, when in fact, in the grand scheme of things, collectively their genetics are DECENT or BETTER THAN MOST.

What adult (or even a kid) would choose to bodybuild if he had the skills and attributes to succeed in professional sports (or MAYBE Olympic competition).

Most bodybuilders and powerlifters are people who with a competitive spirit that got thrown away or disqualified from competitive sports or people with pretty good genetics that didn’t have the environment or resources to excel in a sport from a young age (school, family, peers, money, neighborhood). And believe me, these things are very important if you want to mold a kid to excel in sports coming right out of the gate. You don’t take up Olympic and professional sports at age 25 to 30 - like many bodybuilders have. In most pro sports, you have to be hitting the ground running in your teens and in some Olympic sports, you’re COOKED by age 25 (and often earlier).

And athletes don’t train 4 to 7 hours per week like offseason bodybuilders do. Try 20+ hours per week - even sometimes at a top high school level. Granted it’s NOT all weight training, but a combination of different activities as pointed out in JB’s G-flux articles that I happen to like a lot.

Some athletes do use, but it doesn’t take 'roids to work up to large workloads, which is why I don’t know why there’s all this talk that we’re all going to drop dead from overtraining if we exercise for more than three hours per week. Granted you have to watch for other lifestyle factors, as there are people with schedules and lifestyles that do make them highly susceptible to overworking themselves. (The body doesn’t differentiate stress. Stress is stress!)

(I’m trying to work up to 10 hours per week with a variety of activities. Personal goal now, and it’s not bodybuilding oriented.)

450

Is ramping recommended for body weight exercises? What if we are doing something like 3-4 sets for 10-12 reps on chins, but can’t use a lot of external loading? Would straight sets be better in this case?

What if we can’t even do 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps using body weight only?

451

[quote]ANIMAL M0THER wrote:
Is ramping recommended for body weight exercises? What if we are doing something like 3-4 sets for 10-12 reps on chins, but can’t use a lot of external loading? Would straight sets be better in this case?

What if we can’t even do 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps using body weight only?[/quote]

I use lat pulldowns to ramp up and then do chins for the last 1 or 2 sets.

452

Felt the urge to reply here after having read all 19 pages over a period of 3-days.
The summary of “what to do” here I reckon could best be summed up by-

  1. Follow the original guidlines brick presented and you cant go too wrong (for bodybuilding)

  2. Adjust as you understand how your bodys reacting/what is working best for you

I needed this thread and the CT articles as a kick up the arse about heading towards my true goals.

Personally I know realise I just need to force myself to reduce the weights and adopt the 6-12 rep range. I think starting at 6-8 reps for most movements it will be easier to quantify progression whilst the actual loads go up relatively quickly, however, when progress slows noticably I’d consider increasing reps further as another method of progression as you have said (aka. increasing the reps by 1 in 2 consecutive workouts, then increasing the load next time).

Hope I’m answering my own questions here really, but one thing thats bugging me is this- if I’m finding my squat and deadlift to be increasing pretty quickly from ramping up in 3’s (similar to westside training you described), would you personally leave things be for now with the reps on those exercises or still go up to 6-8 reps and hope to still make similarly quick relative increases (eg. in my 6RM).

453

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
Felt the urge to reply here after having read all 19 pages over a period of 3-days.
The summary of “what to do” here I reckon could best be summed up by-

  1. Follow the original guidlines brick presented and you cant go too wrong (for bodybuilding)

  2. Adjust as you understand how your bodys reacting/what is working best for you

I needed this thread and the CT articles as a kick up the arse about heading towards my true goals.

Personally I know realise I just need to force myself to reduce the weights and adopt the 6-12 rep range. I think starting at 6-8 reps for most movements it will be easier to quantify progression whilst the actual loads go up relatively quickly, however, when progress slows noticably I’d consider increasing reps further as another method of progression as you have said (aka. increasing the reps by 1 in 2 consecutive workouts, then increasing the load next time).

Hope I’m answering my own questions here really, but one thing thats bugging me is this- if I’m finding my squat and deadlift to be increasing pretty quickly from ramping up in 3’s (similar to westside training you described), would you personally leave things be for now with the reps on those exercises or still go up to 6-8 reps and hope to still make similarly quick relative increases (eg. in my 6RM).

[/quote]

I think people should go with what WORKS. So if you’re doing what’s working, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks or recommends, then you should stick with it.

Would I do triples in the deadlift and squat for bodybuilding? No. But that’s just me and my outlook on bodybuilding and I haven’t seen too many people do that for bodybuilding.

But AGAIN, just because something is unorthodox doesn’t mean SOME PEOPLE shouldn’t do it! There are so many examples of people doing unorthodox things in powerlifting, bodybuilding, and sports with great results.

I will NEVER use Matt Kroczaleski’s form in chinups and dumbbells rows because it doesn’t work for me - but it works for him. I wouldn’t do 3 or 4 hour workouts with more than 10 exercises for strength training or powerlifting like Brian Siders does - but it works for him.

And who are we to argue with these people’s results? Nobody, considering that these are men at the elite level doing unorthodox things.

454

(video grabbed from a few pages back)

I like the looks of this and want to try it but just a couple questions if anyone could clarify:

He says “press above the eyes” though by the camera angle its hard to tell exactly what he’s doing. So the bar should be brought down to the nipples but pressed up back above the eyes? What does this mean for the elbows? I also notice that in this video the elbows are flared whereas I’ve seen in traditional benching videos that flaring the elbows is supposed to cause shoulder injury… any ideas about this?

Also, is the press shown in this video the same as the guillotine press mentioned in the
“Best chest/tricep exercises” article? If not, what are the differences?

thanks

455

If I were you…if your lifts are still going up using 3’s, then keep going at it. There will come a point where you will stall and you can switch it up later and with that new found strength you can use it to your advantage, up the reps a bit and gain some more muscle mass and switch between the two. Remember in the long term that strength will help your mass…show me a small guy who can squat 515x10, bench 500, deadlift 700.

456

[quote]rasturai wrote:
If I were you…if your lifts are still going up using 3’s, then keep going at it. There will come a point where you will stall and you can switch it up later and with that new found strength you can use it to your advantage, up the reps a bit and gain some more muscle mass and switch between the two. Remember in the long term that strength will help your mass…show me a small guy who can squat 515x10, bench 500, deadlift 700.[/quote]

Some small men can squat 500.

457

[quote]thogue wrote:

(video grabbed from a few pages back)

I like the looks of this and want to try it but just a couple questions if anyone could clarify:

He says “press above the eyes” though by the camera angle its hard to tell exactly what he’s doing. So the bar should be brought down to the nipples but pressed up back above the eyes? What does this mean for the elbows? I also notice that in this video the elbows are flared whereas I’ve seen in traditional benching videos that flaring the elbows is supposed to cause shoulder injury… any ideas about this?

Also, is the press shown in this video the same as the guillotine press mentioned in the
“Best chest/tricep exercises” article? If not, what are the differences?

thanks[/quote]

Pressing above the eyes isn’t unique to this video demonstration here. Many powerlifters lower the bar to the lower pecs, press in a straight line with elbows in line with the wrists until the midpoint, and then push the bar in an arch to over the eyes while flaring the elbows. This makes for a cleaner lockout and activates the triceps more from midpoint to finish.

Powerlifters who push the entire lift in a straight line are enormous, with a barrel-like chest, and are extremely explosive (eg, Ryan Kennelly).

Flaring the elbows in the bottom position is NOT a guarantee for shoulder injuries, but most people stay away from this practice because it increases the risk for shoulder injuries. Hence why enormous weights and a fast tempo isn’t recommended for that kind of bench pressing shown in the video.

The elbows are flared the entire time in that video. So what do you mean what does this mean for the elbows.

And yes, he means press towards over the eyes.

Guillotine presses have been used for quite some time for bodybuilding. Serge Nubret used them religiously.

458

Hey brick.

I have a simple question for you. I love doing deads, and I want to move more weight in them. I’ve been doing them right after front squats on leg days, but now want to start doing straight legged deads on leg days and think that doing straight leg deads, romanian deads, and front squats all on the same day is a bit much.

So my question is, if I’m doing deads on back day should I do them first or last? I normally do 3xF bodyweight chins/pullups (alternate weekly) as a warmup before doing deads, but was wondering if doing them at the end might be better. I see you used to do them at the end of your workouts, but wasn’t sure if that was so you could use the other exercises as a pre-exhaust so you could move less weight when doing deads.

Thanks and sorry for the verbose post.

459

[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
Hey brick.

I have a simple question for you. I love doing deads, and I want to move more weight in them. I’ve been doing them right after front squats on leg days, but now want to start doing straight legged deads on leg days and think that doing straight leg deads, romanian deads, and front squats all on the same day is a bit much. [/quote}

It’s actually outrageous to think of doing these exercises in one day. Romanian deadlifts and stiff-legged deadlifts are almost identical exercises.

[quote]
So my question is, if I’m doing deads on back day should I do them first or last? I normally do 3xF bodyweight chins/pullups (alternate weekly) as a warmup before doing deads, but was wondering if doing them at the end might be better. I see you used to do them at the end of your workouts, but wasn’t sure if that was so you could use the other exercises as a pre-exhaust so you could move less weight when doing deads.

Thanks and sorry for the verbose post. [/quote]

This is up to you. I’ve seen them done in the beginning, middle, and end of a workout. I don’t treat pullups and chinups as warmups for another exercise. But if this is your way of doing things and you see results, that’s fine.

I didn’t do them last in a pre-exhaust setup. I actually don’t know how pre-exhaust can be applied to standard deadlifts coupled with some other exercise for the upper back or lats. I did them last because that’s what most bodybuilders do, which just goes to show that I’m NOT the foremost expert on bodybuilding. If I was the foremost expert, I wouldn’t just do things because I saw other people doing them. My reasoning was rather infantile in regards to training - and it still is, considering that I still just follow what MOST of the successful people are doing.

I also believe they’re best done last, because most people are destroyed and have little energy left for performing weighted chins and bent over rows after doing them.

460

That’s true. I’m normally spent after them, though I hit PR’s with deads as the 2nd exercise after squats on my leg day and still managed to finish everything else.

I’ve been trying just bending over with straight legs and my hip still catches so I think I’m going to forgo SLDL’s for now. I hate that no one can figure out what’s going on with my hip. I think my gym has an ankle attachment for cables, so I’ll just do single leg hamstring curls.

I think I’ll still start doing deads on back day anyway just to see how doing them more fresh affects things. I think that might be better for overall body stimulation, i.e. having 3 days with money exercises (deads, bench, squat) instead of just two.

As far as the chins/pullups, I do them bodyweight with some kipping. I’ve ‘stalled’ at like 15/12/10 for both. I think I’m going to stop kipping and just do them with strict form, i.e. dead hang, wait at the bottom and hold at the top, etc, to really feel the contraction and see how that alters development.

Thanks again.

Edit: I meant SLDL and regular deads in the same workout. Sorry about the confusion.