[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Okay, now since the conversation is waning… has anyone had a significant injury that has kept them out of the gym for an extended amount of time?
I am curious about how it changed your goals/focus/methods?[/quote]
I haven’t…but then I make a very conscious effort to listen to my body and can tell when a pain is leaning towards an injury if I push further. My upper chest was doing that about a month ago. I kept feeling a twinge in that area right underneath my right anterior delt whenever I went heavier…so I backed off of the weight. The following week I tried again and still felt it, so I trained with light weight that training session (light as in, lighter than usual, not “just the bar”). This past week I barely felt it at all.
I have done the same in the past for shoulders and even my knees. This is why I think more should be focusing on learning basic anatomy and biology before they worry about what many of these authors have to say. It helps to know how your body works and what the difference is between “training soreness” or a pain you can work through…and pain that is the precursor to serious injury.
Here is my current split-
Day 1: chest and biceps
Day 2: legs
Day 3: off
Day 4: shoulders and triceps
Day 5: back or off
Day 6: back or off
Day 7: off
I know people have stated that they don’t understand why you would do chest & biceps, shoulders & triceps on the same day. But I really like this split. Is this an instance of if it works for you, keep doing it? Because my body seems to be responding to it quite well.
Any input?
EDIT: I have in the past trained different bodyparts together too. Like chest & triceps, shoulders, back & biceps, biceps & triceps…
Say Dennis Wolf called you and asked you to give him advice on develeoping his lower lats. lol
What exercises and how would you execute them to give you the best results in overall lower lat development.
I have fairly wide upper lats but with my height my lower lats make me look less wide. What is everybody’s opinion on fixing the tiny lower lat syndrome? lol
Gerdy
I’d have to tell him he must have the wrong number.
Is this not a good topic to bring up? I here people all the time talk about building back mass, and developing their backs, but never about what they do to pull up certain parts from their back instead of just saying do deadlifts/pull ups and you will be fine. No biggie tho, wrong number is a wrong number…my bad.
Gerdy
It was just my smart ass way of saying that I have no clue what to tell someone who is obviously light years past me.
Not that it’s a bad topic - I just don’t know.
[/quote]
lol ya I got the smartass gist of it. lol jk
Ok cool thanks, well if anybody else has any advice to give I’d appreciate it, if not then next topic in the ol bunker
Should someone just starting out do direct arm work?
I’m in the Dave Tate school on this: “You can’t flex bone.” If you don’t have enough mass to flex, there is no point to direct work on tertiary muscle groups.
[/quote]
Totally with you on this one. I do have to admit to hating arm work and beach work in general, so I’m pretty biased. Maybe someday I’ll learn to love it. But in my humble opinion as a newb you should take the time you’re spending on biceps and do something worthwhile with it. Personally the first 6 months or so I trained I did direct arm work, but I didn’t really notice any difference.
Then when I stopped dicking around and spent the next several years with big weights in mind I noticed my overall size grew, and so did my arms. Those wasted 6 months of my training didn’t add anything to my “peak” or width, or circumference. They just subtracted from my growing.
I know someone out there’s going to say “hey, my brother/cousin/lover/roommate etc. got big arms when he was starting out by curling”. Well that may or may not be true, but most newbs suck so bad at everything they should just not sweat it. You don’t sculpt your pec minor thickness when you don’t have a chest. Or back, or legs. That’s why I’m against the body part split for a newb. NOT everyone, just newbs. If you really want to, do some beach work after your training is done, for the last 10 minutes or so of your workout. That’s cool
[quote]dre wrote:
Could we by chance discuss training splits again?
Here is my current split-
Day 1: chest and biceps
Day 2: legs
Day 3: off
Day 4: shoulders and triceps
Day 5: back or off
Day 6: back or off
Day 7: off
I know people have stated that they don’t understand why you would do chest & biceps, shoulders & triceps on the same day. But I really like this split. Is this an instance of if it works for you, keep doing it? Because my body seems to be responding to it quite well.
Any input?
EDIT: I have in the past trained different bodyparts together too. Like chest & triceps, shoulders, back & biceps, biceps & triceps…[/quote]
Not sure if I should post here or not as I’m fairly new to training but hopefully I’ll be able to toss out something useful for discussion.
Personally I like a 4 day upper lower split.
Monday: Heavy upperbody
Tuesday: light lower body
wed off
thursday volume upper body
friday heavy lower body
I think thats pretty standard for an upper/lower split. Occasionally I might run sprints on tuesday or something else instead of lower body lifting.
I think a program like ws4sb is a good place to start for newer lifters. I follow the basic template usually with some tinkering here and there. Most emphasis is getting strong on compound lifts and once youve put forth an honest effort on those you move to smaller muscle groups like rear delts/arms/traps.
I personally think thats how any beginner with an average recovery ability should go about direct arm training. Not necessarily the upper lower split, but like most stated; emphasis on heavy compound lifts and a little but of accessory work.
It makes sense to me that you would need to get stronger to get bigger at lower levels. I haven’t seen anyone get huge off of benching 135 repeatedly.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Here’s a question:
Should someone just starting out do direct arm work?
I’m in the Dave Tate school on this: “You can’t flex bone.” If you don’t have enough mass to flex, there is no point to direct work on tertiary muscle groups.
Totally with you on this one. I do have to admit to hating arm work and beach work in general, so I’m pretty biased. Maybe someday I’ll learn to love it. But in my humble opinion as a newb you should take the time you’re spending on biceps and do something worthwhile with it. Personally the first 6 months or so I trained I did direct arm work, but I didn’t really notice any difference.
Then when I stopped dicking around and spent the next several years with big weights in mind I noticed my overall size grew, and so did my arms. Those wasted 6 months of my training didn’t add anything to my “peak” or width, or circumference. They just subtracted from my growing.
I know someone out there’s going to say “hey, my brother/cousin/lover/roommate etc. got big arms when he was starting out by curling”. Well that may or may not be true, but most newbs suck so bad at everything they should just not sweat it. You don’t sculpt your pec minor thickness when you don’t have a chest. Or back, or legs. That’s why I’m against the body part split for a newb. NOT everyone, just newbs. If you really want to, do some beach work after your training is done, for the last 10 minutes or so of your workout. That’s cool[/quote]
Hold on, as a newbie, you are saying you gained weight but gained no size on your arms? How much did you gain during this time period? You were training EVERY body part but gained no size on your arms yet were training correctly?
You either have really bad genetics…or you are leaving quite a bit out of this story.
I don’t think there is a right answer. Do it. Don’t do it. If you are going to be in this game for very long - I don’t think the first year or so of training will make or break your physique goals.
[/quote]
I think the only right answer is to not let arms be the focus of your mental energy and training as a newb. Include them, not, fine whatever. Like I said, I’m not against some arm work after everything else is done, but I didn’t ever notice a difference when I was young, and I don’t notice any difference with the young guys at my gym now either. Anyway that’s what I was trying to say the first time around.
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Thanks PX. I think it is important when one learns the difference between ‘I have to stop lifting’ and ‘I need to lift conscious of this pain’.
My question does not have to a gym injury, however, an illness is applicable as well.[/quote]
With an illness you would obviously rest if your body tells you to. You have be able to listen to your body, and not be stubborn.
Hold on, as a newbie, you are saying you gained weight but gained no size on your arms? How much did you gain during this time period? You were training EVERY body part but gained no size on your arms yet were training correctly?
You either have really bad genetics…or you are leaving quite a bit out of this story.[/quote]
No not quite. I do firmly believe my genetics suck, but I’ve beaten them into submission over the years through shear dedication, and will continue to do so for years to come. I meant that my arms gained about the same as everything else proportionally, but that I didn’t notice any great progress from my curl and tricep work like I wanted to. And that looking back on it I wish I’d done more heavy rows, chins, and presses in place of arm isolation work my first 6 months or so, because the extra strength would have come in handy. (yes, I did do them, no I did not neglect the rows. But you have to realize as a guy, I could only do 1 unassisted chin-up when I started. Sad, I know).
Hold on, as a newbie, you are saying you gained weight but gained no size on your arms? How much did you gain during this time period? You were training EVERY body part but gained no size on your arms yet were training correctly?
You either have really bad genetics…or you are leaving quite a bit out of this story.
No not quite. I do firmly believe my genetics suck, but I’ve beaten them into submission over the years through shear dedication, and will continue to do so for years to come. I meant that my arms gained about the same as everything else proportionally, but that I didn’t notice any great progress from my curl and tricep work like I wanted to. And that looking back on it I wish I’d done more heavy rows, chins, and presses in place of arm isolation work my first 6 months or so, because the extra strength would have come in handy. (yes, I did do them, no I did not neglect the rows. But you have to realize as a guy, I could only do 1 unassisted chin-up when I started. Sad, I know). [/quote]
[quote]Bellicus wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
Thanks PX. I think it is important when one learns the difference between ‘I have to stop lifting’ and ‘I need to lift conscious of this pain’.
My question does not have to a gym injury, however, an illness is applicable as well.
With an illness you would obviously rest if your body tells you to. You have be able to listen to your body, and not be stubborn. [/quote]
I agree.
There seems to be an overarching notion here that everyone starts out a scrawny newbie and either progresses through due diligence, or does not because of a lack of devotion/desire/intensity. What does not seem to enter into consideration is what happens when some major event, such as an injury or illness, disrupts or derails one’s progress. This makes since if those ‘who are large’ have never had such issues, for it is not in their experience. But I can speak from experience that a major injury/illness does change how you (must) approach bodybuilding and your goals. I was just surveying the waters…
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
. What does not seem to enter into consideration is what happens when some major event, such as an injury or illness, disrupts or derails one’s progress. This makes since if those ‘who are large’ have never had such issues, for it is not in their experience. [/quote]
I think it’s pretty short sighted to assume people “who are large” don’t experience the same setbacks as those who aren’t. Unless we are talking total debilitating injury or life changing illness(cancer or similar) most people are generally going to have some similar speed bumps along the road. The people who are going to make progress will simply learn from the experience and not dwell on it.
I’ve had issues arise in my life that made me totally shut down the bodybuilding train for awhile but when they were over I got back on and didn’t complain about it. Things like that just go into the “stuff each person has to deal with” category for me and is on the back burner.
[quote]Bellicus wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Hold on, as a newbie, you are saying you gained weight but gained no size on your arms? How much did you gain during this time period? You were training EVERY body part but gained no size on your arms yet were training correctly?
You either have really bad genetics…or you are leaving quite a bit out of this story.
No not quite. I do firmly believe my genetics suck, but I’ve beaten them into submission over the years through shear dedication, and will continue to do so for years to come. I meant that my arms gained about the same as everything else proportionally, but that I didn’t notice any great progress from my curl and tricep work like I wanted to. And that looking back on it I wish I’d done more heavy rows, chins, and presses in place of arm isolation work my first 6 months or so, because the extra strength would have come in handy. (yes, I did do them, no I did not neglect the rows. But you have to realize as a guy, I could only do 1 unassisted chin-up when I started. Sad, I know).
So what if you were to focus on arms now?[/quote]
They’d probably develop much faster now. Now I can 1 arm dumbbell row 150 lbs for 6-8, with my best being 12 reps. My arms only measure 16.5 inches, but I can db curl 80 lbs for 6 or so right now without having trained them seriously. If I concentrated on size I’m sure I could put some meat on them pretty quick. But as I said, I hate beach work.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
. What does not seem to enter into consideration is what happens when some major event, such as an injury or illness, disrupts or derails one’s progress. This makes since if those ‘who are large’ have never had such issues, for it is not in their experience.
I think it’s pretty short sighted to assume people “who are large” don’t experience the same setbacks as those who aren’t. Unless we are talking total debilitating injury or life changing illness(cancer or similar) most people are generally going to have some similar speed bumps along the road. The people who are going to make progress will simply learn from the experience and not dwell on it.
I’ve had issues arise in my life that made me totally shut down the bodybuilding train for awhile but when they were over I got back on and didn’t complain about it. Things like that just go into the “stuff each person has to deal with” category for me and is on the back burner.
[/quote]
As all participants here know (and if they don’t, they better learn quick), you reap what you sow.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
. What does not seem to enter into consideration is what happens when some major event, such as an injury or illness, disrupts or derails one’s progress. This makes since if those ‘who are large’ have never had such issues, for it is not in their experience.
I think it’s pretty short sighted to assume people “who are large” don’t experience the same setbacks as those who aren’t. Unless we are talking total debilitating injury or life changing illness(cancer or similar) most people are generally going to have some similar speed bumps along the road. The people who are going to make progress will simply learn from the experience and not dwell on it.
I’ve had issues arise in my life that made me totally shut down the bodybuilding train for awhile but when they were over I got back on and didn’t complain about it. Things like that just go into the “stuff each person has to deal with” category for me and is on the back burner.
[/quote]
I am not assuming, I am asking about these challenges. Rarely do people ask, ‘any injuries or issues?’ when responding to questions. So, there seems to be an unspoken assumption. I am questioning that as well.
I am talking about injuries/illnesses that are long term and their effect on how one trains today. Whether it is bad knees so leg press works better than squats or whatever.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Bellicus wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Hold on, as a newbie, you are saying you gained weight but gained no size on your arms? How much did you gain during this time period? You were training EVERY body part but gained no size on your arms yet were training correctly?
You either have really bad genetics…or you are leaving quite a bit out of this story.
No not quite. I do firmly believe my genetics suck, but I’ve beaten them into submission over the years through shear dedication, and will continue to do so for years to come. I meant that my arms gained about the same as everything else proportionally, but that I didn’t notice any great progress from my curl and tricep work like I wanted to. And that looking back on it I wish I’d done more heavy rows, chins, and presses in place of arm isolation work my first 6 months or so, because the extra strength would have come in handy. (yes, I did do them, no I did not neglect the rows. But you have to realize as a guy, I could only do 1 unassisted chin-up when I started. Sad, I know).
So what if you were to focus on arms now?
They’d probably develop much faster now. Now I can 1 arm dumbbell row 150 lbs for 6-8, with my best being 12 reps. My arms only measure 16.5 inches, but I can db curl 80 lbs for 6 or so right now without having trained them seriously. If I concentrated on size I’m sure I could put some meat on them pretty quick. But as I said, I hate beach work.
[/quote]
I was going to ask “Why the fuck are you here” as sarcasm and remembered you are a powerlifter. Still glad to have ya, though.
I was going to ask “Why the fuck are you here” as sarcasm and remembered you are a powerlifter. Still glad to have ya, though.[/quote]
Lol. I enjoy hanging out with serious lifters, powerlifting or otherwise. I learned a lot from the bb’ers here years ago, and I think it’s easy to learn more from them, as well as the serious bb’ers at my gym. Picked up a lot of good tricks and stuff I’ve used, and learned stuff from training other people too. I do it for love of the game, so to speak.
That’s why I’d like to hang out in this thread, if ya’ll will have me–I like hardcore people. Not, mind you, people posing as hardcore. I mean dedicated serious people who want to be the best. I don’t care what their specific goal is. Kinda like the early days when oly, PL, and bb guys would all hang and train together. You learn a lot. I’m a firm believer in cross-pollination of ideas and methods. All the best coaches do it, and all the best scientists do it, so that’s good enough for me to do it.
Besides, I like to look good. I may want to squat and pull a ton (literally) more than I want to get a perfect v-taper, but I’m not afraid to admit that I do actually want to look like an old school bodybuilder at times. It’s just not my #1 priority. I’ve picked up a lot of things I think others could learn from whether they’re bb’ers or not, even though I’m still “only” a powerlifting guy. Still, I think aspiring to look like Arnold is a worthy goal. Eventually I may even learn to love beach training one day.
Eventually I may even learn to love beach training one day.