For the last couple of years I’ve visited many doctors to find out why I was feeling tired, achy, moody, weak, and not able to add weight or muscle. Finally after going through a few posts on T-Nation I decided to take it upon myself and get my hormone levels checked, such as Testosterone and estrogen.
To my suprise, my Test (total)levels were in the lower part of the range (300’s), my free and biavailable were below their range and my estrogen was <32, which is the best that Quest labs can do.
My age is 46 and I have been lifting for 20+ years and I was surprised with the Test result. Finally found a doctor to put me on HRT treatments and finally most of my symptoms have gone away and am enjoying working out again. My current Test level (total)is 962.
Here is my current issue - my estrogen level is at 42pg/ml and I am definitely feeling and seeing the affects of gyno, even with the snall dosage of Test (200mg/wk). Why am I seeing this side affect? What is the best course of action to take to get rid of the gyno?
I am looking into Arimidex but it doesn’t seem to be intended for long term and will it get rid of what’s already there? Do I need surgery to get rid of the problem, then take something to keep it uner control?
Arimidex is intended to be taken long term. SERMs are not. With that much test, it is no wonder you are getting gyno - 200mg/wk is a large dose.
Talk with your doctor about getting a script or get liquidex from a research chemical site. It will be easier to dose and much cheaper than prescribed adex.
Most of what you can find about adex is from female estsrogen postive breast cancer treatment. That can be 1 or 2 mg per day. That kills E problems and that creates serious sides.
For TRT use, you should start on 1mg/week in divided doses. Better taken EOD. Liquid products allow for refining dosing. Pieces of tablets do not.
That was the wrong lab. For males, quest labs need to be the ultra high sensitivity serum estradiol test. Your doc seems to be stumbling.
Aim for a result near E2=32pg/ml for optimal libido. You may need a short course of nolvadex for the gyno.
Just to share my own experience with this, I’ve been on 300mg/week of Testosterone Cypionate for about six months now, off and on… My doctor had me take a break when I woke up one morning and my wife commented on my A-cup breasts. Nice…
I’m now back on the Test after about a six-week break, during which time the gyno completely cleared up on its own (I believe this is normal, but maybe only in not-so-extreme cases like mine, and probably yours as well). This time, my doctor added in Arimadex (not sure why he didn’t before).
I’m taking one half mg twice per week (by splitting a 1mg tablet in half and taking half on Monday and the second half on Thursday). I believe Arimadex in this dose can be taken very long-term…
Too soon to offer a lot of feedback (just a couple of weeks into the new routine), but so far so good…
[quote]speakman wrote:
Just to share my own experience with this, I’ve been on 300mg/week of Testosterone Cypionate for about six months now, off and on… My doctor had me take a break when I woke up one morning and my wife commented on my A-cup breasts. Nice…
I’m now back on the Test after about a six-week break, during which time the gyno completely cleared up on its own (I believe this is normal, but maybe only in not-so-extreme cases like mine, and probably yours as well). This time, my doctor added in Arimadex (not sure why he didn’t before). I’m taking one half mg twice per week (by splitting a 1mg tablet in half and taking half on Monday and the second half on Thursday). I believe Arimadex in this dose can be taken very long-term…
Too soon to offer a lot of feedback (just a couple of weeks into the new routine), but so far so good… [/quote]
Speakman, have you had any labs done since you began HRT? I’d be interested in seeing what the results are. I’ve seen cycles that are lower dose than what you are being prescribed for a replacement dose.
[quote]Caged wrote:
Speakman, have you had any labs done since you began HRT? I’d be interested in seeing what the results are. I’ve seen cycles that are lower dose than what you are being prescribed for a replacement dose.
[/quote]
I have my 2/23/09 report here in front of me… Not sure what to report, but here are a couple of details:
LH: 2.9
Free Testosterone: 72.7
Let me know if you’re interested in any other details…
[quote]speakman wrote:
Caged wrote:
Speakman, have you had any labs done since you began HRT? I’d be interested in seeing what the results are. I’ve seen cycles that are lower dose than what you are being prescribed for a replacement dose.
I have my 2/23/09 report here in front of me… Not sure what to report, but here are a couple of details:
LH: 2.9
Free Testosterone: 72.7
Let me know if you’re interested in any other details…[/quote]
You need to know your current E2 [estradiol] numbers!!! Dose adex to get near E2=22pg/ml.
1mg adex per week is typical for TRT guys on 100mg test cyp per week. That is not enough for the high doses that you are reporting.
You need to be testing PSA and hemotocrit. You also need a DRE to start, then at 6 months and annual after that if things seem OK
I have not had much time lately to respond to your postings…I want to thank you all for your input. I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow and I will ask him some of your questions above.
KSman - I will ask him about the ultra high sensitivity serum estradiol test and what his reccomended estradiol levels would. Maybe I will find out that he may not be the right doc for me…
speakman - I am surprised that your Free Test level is only 72.7 while you are on 300mg/wk of test…my levels for Free test are 175 and I’m on 200mg/week of test…?
Saw the doc yesterday and explained my symptoms…ge perscribed Arimidex at 1mg/day. He said that there are people who have been on this for years without any side affects.
Looking forward to try it and hopefully it will get rid of any sign of gyno I have. I’ll update this post with results.
[quote]ChrisM wrote:
Saw the doc yesterday and explained my symptoms…ge perscribed Arimidex at 1mg/day. He said that there are people who have been on this for years without any side affects.
Looking forward to try it and hopefully it will get rid of any sign of gyno I have. I’ll update this post with results.
Thanks for the feedback to all…[/quote]
1mg/day is a lot of adex. Even with the high amount of test you are taking, you would probably feel much better at .5mg EOD and adjust from there. My guess is that you will lower your E2 and feel good for a short period of time, then quickly pass through your sweet spot. Having really low E2 is not fun either (no libido).
It is best to learn the symptoms of both high E2 and low E2, so you can recognize them and adjust your dosage as needed.
[quote]ChrisM wrote:
Saw the doc yesterday and explained my symptoms…ge perscribed Arimidex at 1mg/day. He said that there are people who have been on this for years without any side affects.
Looking forward to try it and hopefully it will get rid of any sign of gyno I have. I’ll update this post with results.
Thanks for the feedback to all…[/quote]
That is the standard dose for women who need to remove as much E as possible to fight estrogen positive breast cancer. They have horrible symptoms from the low E, including bone loss and mental problems.
Doc is an idiot. There is an optimal level: E2=22pg/ml. If gyno is involved, fight that with a SERM and seek E2=22pg/ml. Some do use letro to get very low E levels to fight gyno, but that is short term and can create a lot of side effects.
[quote]Caged wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Saw the doc yesterday and explained my symptoms…ge perscribed Arimidex at 1mg/day. He said that there are people who have been on this for years without any side affects.
Looking forward to try it and hopefully it will get rid of any sign of gyno I have. I’ll update this post with results.
Thanks for the feedback to all…
1mg/day is a lot of adex. Even with the high amount of test you are taking, you would probably feel much better at .5mg EOD and adjust from there. My guess is that you will lower your E2 and feel good for a short period of time, then quickly pass through your sweet spot. Having really low E2 is not fun either (no libido).
It is best to learn the symptoms of both high E2 and low E2, so you can recognize them and adjust your dosage as needed.[/quote]
Thanks Caged…
Last thing I need is low or no libido…rather have some gyno! I will start at .5mg/day and keep a close eye on the E2 levels and of course how I feel. I will also do some more detailed research on the affects of low/high E2 going forward…
[quote]KSman wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
Saw the doc yesterday and explained my symptoms…ge perscribed Arimidex at 1mg/day. He said that there are people who have been on this for years without any side affects.
Looking forward to try it and hopefully it will get rid of any sign of gyno I have. I’ll update this post with results.
Thanks for the feedback to all…
That is the standard dose for women who need to remove as much E as possible to fight estrogen positive breast cancer. They have horrible symptoms from the low E, including bone loss and mental problems.
Doc is an idiot. There is an optimal level: E2=22pg/ml. If gyno is involved, fight that with a SERM and seek E2=22pg/ml. Some do use letro to get very low E levels to fight gyno, but that is short term and can create a lot of side effects.[/quote]
KSman - I have to agree with you…he doesn’t seem to be the brightest Doc…lol, but he has helped in prescribing right stuff for my symptoms. Now that I have a better understanding from the posts I received I can put a plan together and move forward.
BTW - I am in CT, if you or anyone knows of a good Doc in this field, please let me know.
[quote]sir_tris wrote:
Do you have real gyno or pseudo-gyno mistaken from the accumulation of fat in the chest particularly around the nipples?
How much will the Arimidex affect libido? [/quote]
Based on the research I’ve done on this, it does feel and look like real gyno. It’s more than just some fat…seems to be a hard lump area also and sensitive to the touch.
I’ll have to see how my libido will be affected going forward…hopefully not at all since I just started dating someone recently…that would not be good!!
Have been taking Adex now for 2 months or so. Definitely noticed a decrease in the size and sensitivity of the gyno pretty quickly. As time went on though, I started to feel joint pain in some new areas…and also lost some weight(probably water) and my body started to look flat. I initially started the adex at .5 ED and now have backed off to .25 every 3 days.
My body now looks fuller and bigger but still feel some joint pain and aslo noticed the gyno sensitivity is back. Another weird thing is that I think I noticed some hair thinning with adex…? In reading some posts on this site it seems like adex side affects are joint pain and some complaints on hair thinning.
Based on these side affects, I’m wondering if there is a better alternative?
Does anyone know (hopefully from experience), if the gyno is surgically removed will it come back again if the test replacement treatments are not stopped?
[quote]KSman wrote:
Most of what you can find about adex is from female estsrogen postive breast cancer treatment. That can be 1 or 2 mg per day. That kills E problems and that creates serious sides.
For TRT use, you should start on 1mg/week in divided doses. Better taken EOD. Liquid products allow for refining dosing. Pieces of tablets do not.
That was the wrong lab. For males, quest labs need to be the ultra high sensitivity serum estradiol test. Your doc seems to be stumbling.
Aim for a result near E2=32pg/ml for optimal libido. You may need a short course of nolvadex for the gyno.[/quote]
What would a short course of Nolvadex do that adex can’t do? Also I updated my post below to list my current status/issues…would you have any input on that?
SERMs are selective estrogen receptor modulators. These are chemically estrogens that block E in some tissues and may act like estrogen in some others. Using a SERM will make the estrogen receptors in your breast tissue unable, less able, to react to your E2 levels. SERMs do not lower E. In guys who are not on TRT, SERMs can be expected to increase E2 levels. AIs reduce E levels by reducing T–>E aromatization rates. You can reduce your E2 to E2=22pg/ml by increasing the anastrozole dose by: current dose * (current serum E2 / 22 pg/ml). This calc will also reduce your dose if current level is < 22pg/ml.
The SERM will help shrink the breast tissue and it will be short term use. The breast tissue needs to be estrogen starved. Lower E2 levels may not be enough.
I am 43 yrs old, 5’7", 153 lbs and been doing my own TRT for nearly a year via 250mg Test Ethanate per week. Just got labs back indicating Test = 1751 ng/dL and Estradiol (E2) = 71 pg/ml. I just ordered some L-dex from ChemOne and I figure to dose at 0.5mg 3x per week to equal 1.5mg per week. This seem about right? I am confused though as it lists as 1mg/ml but the write up states 0.5mg/ml; which is correct? Any thoughts or dosing insights would be helpful.
[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs are selective estrogen receptor modulators. These are chemically estrogens that block E in some tissues and may act like estrogen in some others. Using a SERM will make the estrogen receptors in your breast tissue unable, less able, to react to your E2 levels. SERMs do not lower E. In guys who are not on TRT, SERMs can be expected to increase E2 levels. AIs reduce E levels by reducing T–>E aromatization rates. You can reduce your E2 to E2=22pg/ml by increasing the anastrozole dose by: current dose * (current serum E2 / 22 pg/ml). This calc will also reduce your dose if current level is < 22pg/ml.
The SERM will help shrink the breast tissue and it will be short term use. The breast tissue needs to be estrogen starved. Lower E2 levels may not be enough.[/quote]
I had to stop the Adex due to joint sensitivity and pain. Tried a short dose of Nolvadex but it also bothered my joints(I hope that this is what’s bothering my joints)…
I decided to stop all AI and blockers beacuse I’d rather be able to work out without joint pain and if the gyno gets bad enough, I may consider surgery.
Is joint pain that common of a problem with Adex and Nolvadex? I’m assuming that’s all the choices I have??