15%~ bf
-can grow a beard, chest hair.
-carry fat most noticeably in belly and chest
-had pituitary tumor - removed.
-follow a not so strict cave man diet (high fat, low carb diet - I eat a lot of vegies)
-train about 4-6 days a week.
-testes don’t ache with fevor
-Morning wood improved while on trt
Started 100 mg test TRT split into 50mgs mondays/thursdays. Started Feb 9th of this year.
I have a dr who listens very well to me, and i took the precautions for gyno as i’m already aware im gyno sensitive (took cycles before - also had gotten gyno pretty bad and had it surgically removed)
Been off the gear for a few years, had a pituitary tumor removed as well. Although I don’t have my blood reports on hand, from what I remember my levels were as follows BEFORE starting trt
T3/t4: mid range
TSH: was a bit high, but still in range (dr is keeping tabs on this)
Test: was at the very bottom of range, just under 300
Prolactin: was a bit over, 21 (5-18 normal range for men - with 2.5mg bromo my prolactin drops to 1)
Estrogen fluctuates at the top end of range for men.
There was a bunch of other hormones i got checked for as well, which all read back pretty good.
My issue is i get gyno with just 100mg a week with aromasin 25mg ED along with nolvadex 20mg ED and bromocriptine 2.5 mg everyday.
I pushed for the nolvadex just until we found a sweet spot for my AI and I wouldn’t have to worry about gyno - the dr agreed. To me, it just doesn’t make sense im getting gyno. And no, its NOT me being paranoid.
Going for blood work Tuesday, is there another hormone I haven’t been looking at that could be causing this?
Thyroid: The best overall measure of thyroid function status is your body temperature. Check oral temperatures when you first wake up AND mid-afternoon.
You need iodine. Have you been using iodized salt for years? Iodine in vitamins [for years]? It is also critical to have some identifiable source of selenium in your diet. You can get a multi-vit that has some iodine, selenium and other trace/essential elements.
Low iodine increases TSH. This has been known for almost 100 years. But I have never seen a guy here indicate that his doctor(s) have ever asked about his use of iodized salt. Iodized salt was introduced in USA and Canada in 1924.
Contains bromine which is toxic, because it occupies sites in the body where its cousin needs to be. Suggest that you use cabergoline/Dostinex 0.5mg per week.
If you were to need high dose iodine replenishment, bromines would be displaced and excreted. During that phase, the displaced bromines can create metallic taste and objectionable fishy body odors. Citrus sodas with bromated vegetable oils also create an opportunity for accumulating bromines. There are other environmental risks as well.
Cabergoline has no side effects when used in low doses.
E2 can be high from a high production rate and/or impaired clearance in the liver. Do you have ALT/AST lab data.
Please obtain and post lab results with ranges.
SERMs [nolvadex, clomid], typically increase T–>E2 inside the testes and if dose is too high [an individual matter], E2 rates can be high. Anastrozole/Arimidex cannot control T–>E2 production rates inside the testes and one can have E2 levels that cannot be controlled with anastrozole. Watch out for this trap.
Thanks for the quick reply, I had gone and edited my original post.
There is something I had forgot to mention. When I had started my trt on feb 9th, I was taking Arimidex 1mg EOD with no nolvadex. Did 3 shots of 50mg each, feb 9th, feb 12th and feb 16th.
Feb 12th~ I had increased adex to 1mg ED because of gyno symptoms, and decided to see my dr about switching to aromasin and adding nolva until we find that sweet spot for E2 levels.
Feb 19th rolled around (I do my shots every mon and thurs) but my appointment was feb 23rd so I skipped that shot – by the 23rd whatever gyno was coming on was completely expelled.
Fast forward to today. I’ve taken every shot mon/thursdays with aromasin 1mg ed and 20mg nolva. I had told myself I was going to skip todays shot and every other shot until I dial in the issue at hand (gyno) - But during the weekend I noticed the glands wasn’t as itchy as that 3rd day of aromasin.
Which brings me to this - Something I was worried about from switching to Adex to Aromasin. Does Adex still have a rebounding effect when switching to another AI? I hadn’t tappered the adex because I had thought it would have been overkill o my E2 with adding in the aromasin.
I’m reading over this and i’m not entirely sure what i’m trying to ask. I did however, order the supplements Ksman had suggested. I guess i’ll just have to wait til the blood tests come back to figure out the issue at hand, or if there even is one.
Rebound is the effect of T–>E2 rates going back to normal. The levels are not going to shoot higher than steady state without AI. What you feel is another matter as you may feel rates of change.
How often to do take 20mg Nolvadex? If you take to much, your E2 levels can be very high and AI cannot reduce the high T–>E2 production rates inside the testes. [as per stickies]
The narrative style of describing your protocol is not very useful.
I’ve been taking nolvadex now for 10 days now, 20mg/ed.
As for adex 1mg EOD it’s a dose I’ve been on prior to even starting trt, which brings me to my sweet spot for e2 levels (again - that’s without trt.) My body is highly Estrogen dominate.
I’m going to get off the nolva and see what happens with 25mg aromasin/ED
You are better off in the long run controlling E2 with an AI and not masking higher E2 levels with a SERM. And again, SERM can easily increase your E2 levels and a SERM only masks E2 in selected tissues.
Ok so i’ve final got back my blood tests results after so long. I noticed they missed out serveral hormones that were checked off on the script for the test.
This test was taken 2 days after my last 50mcg shot of test (100mg weekly). I did a total of 4 weeks trt at this dose and had to stop because of gyno.
Test Total : 28.3 // acceptable ranges on results 8.4 - 29.0 nmol/L
Progesterone: 1.9 // 0.9 - 3.9 nmol/L
Oestradiol: <44 // < 146 pmol/L (I was doing overkill on AI and dropped my e2 levels to low)
Prolactin: 5 // 2-18 ug/L
SHBG, T4, Free Test, and other hormones which i do not recall were “skipped” when supposed to have been checked which upsets me.
I’m trying to figure out how I’m getting gyno on just 100mg test a week. I have another blood scrip with me, and i can check anything off that i need checked. What hormones should I be looking at?
p.s
I had started the Iodine supplement as recommended after these tests.
I refer to myself as an over aromatizer. I’m in Canada and can’t get a RX for Adex but at 100mg (without AI) I developed a near surgical case of gyno. My doctor thankfully prescribed Raloxifene which was really effective. I backed my dose to 60mg/week and have had no sides and feel good.
[quote]Hook24 wrote:
I refer to myself as an over aromatizer. I’m in Canada and can’t get a RX for Adex but at 100mg (without AI) I developed a near surgical case of gyno. My doctor thankfully prescribed Raloxifene which was really effective. I backed my dose to 60mg/week and have had no sides and feel good. [/quote]
I still get gyno even at over killing my estrogen with AIs. I’m baffled. Going to research more into SHBG and DHEA maybe my issue lies somewhere in there.