Terri Schiavo: More Grandstanding

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Please don’t puff him up anymore than he already is…He won’t be able to get his head through the T-Door…:slight_smile: By the way if you read his posts closely, (as I have had the honor to do) they never really make sense. They go something like this: “Bluster bluster…BOOO bluster…AHH…I…I…I…ME…ME…HI!”

Well, if you really think about it, all the liberal spin guys on tv basically do the same thing. It’s more like “bluster bluster bullshit halliburton bluster angry white male bluster”
[/quote]

who are these “guys”?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
If you’re a sorry assed husband that just wants to be done with the ‘situation’ - it’s easy to walk away with no regrets - especially if you aren’t the one taking care of her.

It’s quite a different story if you are her parents. Who is suffereing by letting Terri live? Why does a judge need to order the starvation of a defenseless person? When the sanctity of life is soiled with the likes of activist judges, something has to be done.

For once I think that the U.S. Congress stepped up and did what needed to be done for the sanctity of life.[/quote]

Bush and congress are playing “whore” to creat an illlusion of respecting thier “debt” to, in this case, the religious “not so” right. This was a direct and deliberate assault on states rights. There has always been and should always remain the rule of law that says, except in captial and other specific cases, state court rulings are not just a warm up. Usurptation of states rights and responsibilities in ajudication by the back door, back handed, hand wringing boo-hooing jihadist “right to life” panderers had been handeld correctly by the Supreme Court and Jeb Bush. Unfortunately we may not yet be done dealing with the 15 minutes of fame that some of these out of the woodwork “neonazis= our way or the highway” are trying to cram down the collective throat of America.

ZEB

Since you are not married let me tell you that I hope my wife would fight for 15 years to insure that my wishes were upheld. You attack Mr. Schiavo for wanting to “pull the plug” when many have come to the conclusion that this in fact was Terri’s desire. His love and devotion to his wife’s wishes show a great deal of strength. He could have walked away many times, but chose to stand up to people like you who feel you know what’s best for everyone else in society. By the way–1st post or 1306th post–doesn’t make you right or wrong.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
3 sources. Apparently she told her husband, his brother and his sister…but she didn’t tell her mother–who she was very close to, or her brother or her sister or her father.
Seem odd?
[/quote]

It really doesn’t seem that odd to me. After watching MDB I had a discussion with my GF and her two friends in which I stated my wishes with regard to this issue. I’ve never had that conversation with my mother, whom is the person I am closest to (although I probably will now, because of this case).

[quote]
What else…the lack of MRI and PET. This has been mentioned all over the place, I can bring forth the cites if you want. I believe it’s important because the neurologists that aren’t actually working to kill the woman–that is the people without axes to grind–say it’s unusual.[/quote]

What axes do the court-appointed doctors have to grind? What axe does PX have to grind? I’ve seen the imaging of her brain. I have no medical training, but have a fairly solid background in biology, and after seeing the imaging I have to say this woman’s lack of a cerebral cortex is indeed quite troubling. Based on my education I see no possibly of recovery, based on that image. Again, my opinion is next to worthless, but what axe do I have to grind?

[quote]
I believe them–or actually it’s not belief, rather that I give them more credence–because I’d rather err on the side of life.[/quote]

Now that is the best argument I’ve heard. If we aren’t sure, err on the side of life. The only problem is, in ANY situation, you will always find someone somewhere that says “there’s a chance”.

In my mind I want the personal physician to make a determination on whether or not she is “dead” or “alive”, and then the guardian to make the determination on whether life support should be removed. Is that not what had happened, until the issue was politicized and pulled into court (where court-appointed doctors confirmed) by the parents?

I agree completely. I would rather it be the caring physician and the legal guardian that make those determinations. That’s why I disagree with the decision of local and federal politicians stepping into this issue. This deeply troubles me.

Unfortunately the parents forced this into the judicial system and put it in front of a judge when the caring physician and legal guardian were the rightful people to make this choice (in my opinion at least).

[quote]
And just for fun…did you know Greer has a history of rulings that wind up costing women their lives?
He refused a protection order for a woman once, he didn’t think it was serious. They found her body 2 days later.
He’s old, legally blind…and if Terri can be killed, perhaps he needs to be put to sleep as well?[/quote]

If he could not communicate his own wishes, his caring physician declared that he was in a brain dead state and that there was no chance for him to recover, and his legal guardian consented, then yes he should have the machines keeping him alive turned off. Don’t you agree? Isn’t that the logical way to treat these matters? What other system are you proposing in these cases? It seems like you’re proposing a system where we can’t turn off life support if there is any doctor anywhere that makes a claim that he or she can “cure” the patient. I don’t think I need to say why that simply isn’t a plausible solution.

I mean what are we really arguing here? Are we arguing that:

  1. The husband is killing a living woman with a chance of recovery, against everyone’s wishes.
  2. The woman really is dead, but we shouldn’t remove anyone from life support ever.

Obviously #1 isn’t the case. A doctor agreed to remove the feeding tube based on the husband’s wishes, which could not have happened unless the doctor had advised the husband that she was unrecoverable. The caring physician had to have made that determination, period.

#2 is argueable, but I just don’t agree with it.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Moriarty:
BTW, for the entire length of time this has been going on I was on the other side of the issue. In fact, when Jeb Bush rammed ‘terri’s law’ through the Florida Legislature, I emailed the govenor’s office and told him how upset I was by his meddling etc.
Two weeks ago I was in favor of letting her die.
Then I heard some things that didn’t jibe. So I did some reading. And some more reading. And what I found made my hair curl (my hair’s so straight…well anyway!).
Admittedly, about 10 or 15% is based on watching the husband on tv. I watched him on Larry King and on other things, and my gut was screaming “sleaze” the entire time. [/quote]

I will go so far as to agree that I find the lack of an MRI and PET troubling, but the caring physician made a determination based on everything he had seen that she was gone. We have means for holding the physician accountable is it is found that he or she was incorrect.

We also have the notion of a “legal guardian”, which is someone entrusted to make these tough decision. Yeah, this system isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than a system where we have a judge decide or we bring in every doctor in the world to find a dissenting opinion.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Please don’t puff him up anymore than he already is…He won’t be able to get his head through the T-Door…:slight_smile: By the way if you read his posts closely, (as I have had the honor to do) they never really make sense. They go something like this: “Bluster bluster…BOOO bluster…AHH…I…I…I…ME…ME…HI!”

Well, if you really think about it, all the liberal spin guys on tv basically do the same thing. It’s more like “bluster bluster bullshit halliburton bluster angry white male bluster”

who are these “guys”?[/quote]

LOL! Cargoyle, Forehead Begala, Dean, Lardball, you pretty much name it.

And then these shows go out and get the most hideous republicans…like Tucker Carlson and Novack. God. Tucker Carlson needs to be strangled with his bow tie.

I’m not really sure what he is, but he’s not conservative.
Now…if they trotted out Laura Ingraham all the time…in mini-skirts, that’d be okay.

[quote]janus2469 wrote:

Bush and congress are playing “whore” to create an illlusion of respecting thier “debt” to, in this case, the religious “not so” right. This was a direct and deliberate assault on states rights. There has always been and should always remain the rule of law that says, except in captial and other specific cases, state court rulings are not just a warm up.

Usurptation of states rights and responsibilities in ajudication by the back door, back handed, hand wringing boo-hooing jihadist “right to life” panderers had been handeld correctly by the Supreme Court and Jeb Bush. Unfortunately we may not yet be done dealing with the 15 minutes of fame that some of these out of the woodwork “neonazis= our way or the highway” are trying to cram down the collective throat of America. [/quote]

A little basic jurisdiction for you.

State courts have authority to interpret state law and federal law. State courts are known as courts of general jurisdiction. Their decisions can be appealed to federal court when the state courts make a ruling on a federal law claim.

In this case, the Schindlers have advanced a very weak Constitutional claim involving what I believe is substantive due process (a very bad theory for any strictu constructionists, originalists, or those who think Roe v. Wade was bad legal reasoning).

The Federal Courts are courts of limited jurisdiction. Congress sets the jurisdiction for the lower federal courts, while the Supreme Court’s jurisdiction is set by the Constitution.

In general, federal court jurisdiction is limited to questions of federal law and diversity jurisdiction (i.e. disputes between residents of different states involving some minimum amount of money).

In this situation, Congress basically passed a law telling the lower federal court their jurisdiction included the Schaivo case, and they needed to hear the federal law claim. Congress could feasibly have done something more results oriented, but the law they passed was process oriented – it just told the federal court to hear the claim.

The first set of cases and appeals had to do with the request for an injunction ordering the feeding tubes reinserted so that the merits of the case could be decided. If Schaivo dies, the question becomes moot and the case is closed.

However, to get such an injunction not only do you have to demonstrate a very large probability of an event occuring to make the case moot or cause irreversible damage (which was definitely present here), you also have to demonstrate a substantial likelihood of success on the merit of the claim. THat is what the federal lower-court judge ruled was absent – there was not a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the federal law claim.

On appeal, the appellate court reviews on a very deferential standard known as “abuse of discretion.” Basically, in order to overturn the lower court, the appellate court would not only have to rule that he was wrong, but that he was so wrong (either in fact, in law or in procedure) that he violated his judicial discretion.

The 11th Circuit panel, and the entire 11th Circuit sitting en banc, upheld the lower court based on a review under the “abuse of discretion” standard.

[NOTE: a small digression, but people should note that Judge Pryor, whom the Democrats filibustered under the absurd theory that he could not separate his Cathlolic religious views from his duties as a judge, was not one of the judges who filed a dissent. Two did. One appointed by Clinton, and one by Reagan]

The Supreme Court refused to review the 11th Circuit decision on the injunction.

Now the case is back before the lower federal court judge, who is hearing the case on the merits.

In other words, we’re pretty far from the overturning of the rule of law in this case.

I disagree with what Congress did – mostly because the Constitutional claim on the merits seems especially weak, but this is all going on under the auspices of the Constitution and the rule of law.

[quote]I mean what are we really arguing here? Are we arguing that:

  1. The husband is killing a living woman with a chance of recovery, against everyone’s wishes.
  2. The woman really is dead, but we shouldn’t remove anyone from life support ever.

Obviously #1 isn’t the case. A doctor agreed to remove the feeding tube based on the husband’s wishes, which could not have happened unless the doctor had advised the husband that she was unrecoverable. The caring physician had to have made that determination, period.

#2 is argueable, but I just don’t agree with it.[/quote]
Moriarty:

  1. Thank you for being reasonable and it seems a little careful, as well as being respectful. It makes for a very nice and welcome change.
  2. As far as what we’re arguing, here’s my best shot at it (warning, this is gonna be a mix of fact and feeling ).
    This woman is bad off. We can agree on that. She hasn’t had any therapy though. The nurses say she can eat soft foods and swallow liquid. Apparently she can follow simple directions–and the findings from the doc for the State of Florida talk about the new findings.
    So she’s never going to be who she was. She might never be more than what she is. But given that we don’t know, and given the number of questions that have come up in the last ten days or so, shouldn’t she get the benefit of the doubt? I’m very uncomfortable–as you said you are–with the idea of the decisons being made the way they are. If she doesn’t hurt anyone by being alive, what’s the harm?
    And if she can recover a little bit, to the point where she can interact somewhat, learn to talk again etc, isn’t she worth it? Just as a human being?

You asked me what axe the court doctors had to grind, or even what axe you have to grind. I don’t know about them. The whole court system of Florida stinks to me, so I don’t know. I’m going to assume you have no axe to grind.
But I’ll ask you: what axe am I grinding? I’ve stated how until I started doing some research on this I was in favor of “pulling the plug” on her. I’ve stated that I’m one of those annoying Pro-Choice Republicans (actually I’m more of a conservative libertarian, but there’s a kid around here giving libertarians a bad name), so it’s not like I’m a rabid life at all cost type.

And I’ll freely admit that part of the issue for me is looking at the pain of the parents, v. the sheer sleaze factor of the husband–and how he’s essentially got another wife–a common law wife–and won’t give Terri up. Part of the issue for me is who’s come out saying she must die. There’s a real blood-lust look in Barney Frank’s eyes when he talks about the issue. These people are suddenly all about individual rights and states rights…but they want to take away my second amendment rights and they won’t let the Alaskans drill for oil. You see the problem here?
But mostly it’s watching her on the videotape, seeing the way she smiles when she sees her mother. It’s hard for her to see, you know. She’s pretty much limited to about a foot around her. So you can see her moving her head about, trying to locate where sound is coming from.
And the pictures of her when she was young. She was such a lovely girl.
And thinking about how, in this country, one old fart judge could order someone to be starved to death. One fuckin’ judge makes the ruling. He ruled–and it’s now legal fact that Terri said she wanted to die. In a criminal trial that would be heresay and not allowed. But he allowed it. Why?

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
We also have the notion of a “legal guardian”, which is someone entrusted to make these tough decision. [/quote]

I don’t understand how a husband who’s moved on with his life and now has a new family etc can still be considered the legal guardian. He should have divorced her. One of the GAL’s should have filed for her.
Oh, she never really had one She had 3 of them, for a couple of weeks at a time.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
ZEB

Since you are not married let me tell you that I hope my wife would fight for 15 years to insure that my wishes were upheld. You attack Mr. Schiavo for wanting to “pull the plug” when many have come to the conclusion that this in fact was Terri’s desire. His love and devotion to his wife’s wishes show a great deal of strength. He could have walked away many times, but chose to stand up to people like you who feel you know what’s best for everyone else in society. By the way–1st post or 1306th post–doesn’t make you right or wrong. [/quote]

True, no matter how many posts that you have you can be wrong! Let’s take your 96th post for example. I do happened to be married and very happily so for several years, so that would make you wrong!

As far as the Schiavo case is concerned, I simply quoted a couple of vows that usually are included in a marriage ceremony. Does that trouble you for some reason?

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
We also have the notion of a “legal guardian”, which is someone entrusted to make these tough decision.

I don’t understand how a husband who’s moved on with his life and now has a new family etc can still be considered the legal guardian. He should have divorced her. One of the GAL’s should have filed for her.
Oh, she never really had one She had 3 of them, for a couple of weeks at a time.[/quote]

You guys who don’t understand why he won’t “move on” just don’t get it. He is trying to fulfill a wish she had entrusted him with. He is doing the HONORABLE thing by sticking with it. The easy way out would have been to pass the buck to the parents. If your best friend, spouse, whomever passed on to you, their dying wishes–well I can guess you would do what you could until it got a little to uncomfortable for you or until a better deal came along

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
We also have the notion of a “legal guardian”, which is someone entrusted to make these tough decision.

I don’t understand how a husband who’s moved on with his life and now has a new family etc can still be considered the legal guardian. He should have divorced her. One of the GAL’s should have filed for her.
Oh, she never really had one She had 3 of them, for a couple of weeks at a time.

You guys who don’t understand why he won’t “move on” just don’t get it. He is trying to fulfill a wish she had entrusted him with. He is doing the HONORABLE thing by sticking with it. The easy way out would have been to pass the buck to the parents. If your best friend, spouse, whomever passed on to you, their dying wishes–well I can guess you would do what you could until it got a little to uncomfortable for you or until a better deal came along[/quote]

Honorable is not divorcing her but taking a common law wife and having a couple of kids?
And lets not forget all the other stuff. Like how he suddenly remembered this vow after 6 years or more.

Joe W

Is it more honorable to lay dead as his wife is. The reason he won’t divorce is because nobody else will make sure her wishes are followed through on. By all accounts he is a good father to these children. Yes, that is honorable.

The fact that he moved forward in some respects of his life do not detract from wanting to see Terri’s wishes followed thru. As far as your re-ocurring it was 6 years before he brought up this wish argument. Obviously it was good enough for a judge to believe, and I don’t believe that you have more or better sources than the judge. God bless her and all involved in a true tragedy

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Joe W

Is it more honorable to lay dead as his wife is. The reason he won’t divorce is because nobody else will make sure her wishes are followed through on. By all accounts he is a good father to these children. Yes, that is honorable.

The fact that he moved forward in some respects of his life do not detract from wanting to see Terri’s wishes followed thru. As far as your re-ocurring it was 6 years before he brought up this wish argument. Obviously it was good enough for a judge to believe, and I don’t believe that you have more or better sources than the judge. God bless her and all involved in a true tragedy[/quote]

Maybe the judge is just an old fart who thinks women are the property of their husbands?
Where in Wisconsin are you?
I went to school in Beloit.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Joe W

Is it more honorable to lay dead as his wife is. The reason he won’t divorce is because nobody else will make sure her wishes are followed through on. By all accounts he is a good father to these children. Yes, that is honorable.

The fact that he moved forward in some respects of his life do not detract from wanting to see Terri’s wishes followed thru. As far as your re-ocurring it was 6 years before he brought up this wish argument. Obviously it was good enough for a judge to believe, and I don’t believe that you have more or better sources than the judge. God bless her and all involved in a true tragedy[/quote]

btw, are you saying judges are always right and we should always bow down to what they say? They’re infallible, like the Pope?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/03/25/schiavo.doctors.ap/index.html

If you can’t read the entire article, please, at least, read what I have quoted.

It just seems like every time I hear about a doctor that does not agree with the original diagnosis, it’s based on some “feeling in the air”, or some other intangible argument that cannot be reproduced. There is also, usually, some form of controversy surrounding them.

I also find the nurses’ claims hard to believe. Is it legal for a doctor to deny a patient food? I mean removing a machine is one thing, but if Terri could really eat without the machine wouldn’t these doctors be feeding her?

good article. Surprising, coming from CNN. I like the part where Sung was dismissing the other doctor because he was affiliated with “Christians”.
But let me ask you…are they all hacks and frauds?

I particularly like the bit in here about how he needs jail time because the cows suffered tremendously [from being starved to death].
Funny how the damn cows suffer, but Terri? Oh, for her, according to the NY Times and LA Times, it’s peaceful and euphoric.

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050324/NEWS/503240325/1003/NEWS02

Cabot farmer serving reparative sentence for cow deaths

March 24, 2005

By Peter Hirschfeld Times Argus Staff
BARRE ? A Cabot farmer convicted of starving his cows to death has begun serving a reparative sentence imposed by Washington County prosecutors as part of a plea bargain.
Christian DeNeergaard pleaded guilty to five misdemeanor counts of animal cruelty in January. He received a suspended one-year sentence as well as 30 days of work crew assignment as part of a deal with prosecutors. DeNeergaard, 47, may not own or possess livestock during his year of probation and must also undergo alcohol-abuse counseling.
In October, then-Washington County State’s Attorney Tom Kelly said he would seek at least some jail time for animal neglect, which claimed the lives of at least 11 cows.
“We think some jail time is appropriate,” said Kelly in an October interview. “The cows suffered tremendously.”
But Brooks McArthur, the Washington County Deputy State’s Attorney who prosecuted the case, said weaknesses in the case forced the state into a less punitive resolution. The initial search of DeNeergaard’s farm may have violated the farmer’s constitutional protections against search and seizure, according to McArthur, and a key police witness in the case has been deployed to Iraq and would have been unable to testify.
“The reason there wasn’t any jail time in this case is there was legal issues? over the initial search that led to the entire case. There wasn’t a warrant when (the officer) searched the barn, and all the evidence flowed from that search,” McArthur said. “The other significant issue is Walt Smith, one of the investigating officers, was deployed and unavailable for the trial or evidentiary hearings. It would’ve been a shame to have the entire case go away. We didn’t want to risk that and we thought it was appropriate to go ahead and just get the conviction.”
DeNeergaard, first charged in March 2003, allegedly neglected to feed or water his herd of 75 cows. Numerous investigations by Vermont State Police and the Agency of Agriculture revealed squalid conditions in the Cabot barn, and a preliminary report by a veterinarian said at least 11 cows found dead on the farm had starved to death.
Police became involved in November when Cabot Constable Jeffrey Haggert observed dead animals outside the barn and notified authorities. State police and agriculture officials who investigated DeNeergaard on Dec. 4 found dead cows in the barn and said in an affidavit that food and water were not available to the remaining cows.
DeNeergaard was told to improve living conditions on the farm, but a subsequent inspection on Jan. 31 revealed an even more appalling situation.
“I observed 15 dead cows in the farm, which were not the same dead cows I observed in the past,” Vermont State Police Sgt. Walter Smith said in an affidavit.
All the living cows had been removed prior to Smith’s Jan. 31 inspection. DeNeergaard’s wife, Twyla, said she and her husband had called a slaughterhouse to take the remaining cows away because they were too ill with the flu to care for them. She said the dead cows had succumbed to a fatal virus, though neither she nor her husband had called a veterinarian.
An employee of CC Miller Corp., the Morristown company that picked up the cows for slaughter, said the conditions of the cows and the farm were the worst he had ever seen.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which calls itself the world’s largest animal rights organization, had wanted the Cabot farmer to go to jail. In a May letter to McArthur, PETA caseworker Stephanie Bell demanded jail time for Christian DeNeergaard and asked that he undergo a psychological evaluation and counseling at his own expense.

Have you guys seen where even Ralph Nader has come out for letting Terri live?
That’s really unnerving my commie friend who gave him money and support to run for president.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Joe W

Is it more honorable to lay dead as his wife is. The reason he won’t divorce is because nobody else will make sure her wishes are followed through on. By all accounts he is a good father to these children. Yes, that is honorable.

The fact that he moved forward in some respects of his life do not detract from wanting to see Terri’s wishes followed thru. As far as your re-ocurring it was 6 years before he brought up this wish argument. Obviously it was good enough for a judge to believe, and I don’t believe that you have more or better sources than the judge. God bless her and all involved in a true tragedy

Maybe the judge is just an old fart who thinks women are the property of their husbands?
Where in Wisconsin are you?
I went to school in Beloit.[/quote]

Stevens Point
Just went to half-time in the Badger game. They look f*kn awful