I’ve got a few questions regarding use of T-17E/Testosterone.
1.After a two week cycle using 600mg/week along with Androsol, how long would you have to wait to test clean on a drug test? How bout an 8 week cycle?
2.Would using Proscar during the cycle help with the hair loss even if you discontinue use after the cycle is over?
3.Like anybody I would guess, I’m awfully concerned about the gyno/hair loss issues with testosterone use. A while back, Tim mentioned that you guys were working on an over the counter anti-aromatase. Any news on this? Also, what would be the best schedule of clomid to use when following the 2 on, 4 off approach?
4.What’s the best drug to stack with Testosterone/T-17E? I’m betting on the typical answers of any class II, but does anything else in particular stand out as being extremely effective?
Thanks!
We don’t have test results yet for determining the half-life of T-17E, but chances are it would be only a matter of days before one could pass a drug test that screened for steroids.
An 8 week cycle would be no more and no less
appropriate than an 8 week cycle using injectable testosterone.
Proscar at 1 or 1.25 mg/day would help with
regard to hair loss. T-17E will be the same
here as injectable testosterone in its behavior.
The anti-aromatase thing is problematic. There’s a compound that is pretty promising
for effectiveness but I see no way (short of
spending several million dollars) to establish
safety to where I feel we have sound basis to
sell it – unlike the case with the prohormones
or with products already used in natural medicine, where there is no question of
toxicology problems. There are a couple of
other possibilities but they can’t be expected
to be on the market anytime soon either. The
answer I feel is simply, if anyone has any
worries about estrogen, use N-17E instead.
Inasmuch as a small percentage of men will
get gyno with a mere 250 mg/week of Sustanon, there are individuals who will find even low-dose T-17E to be inappropriate. Doctors don’t seem to consider gyno to be a serious side effect, but we do, hence our preference for the nandrolone prohormone vs. the testosterone one.
As for which Class II will give the most
effect in combination with T-17E or N-17E,
I would say that between Dianabol, Anadrol,
and Androsol, any of them will give the
same results with sufficient dosage. However,
Anadrol combined with testosterone is nasty
for side effects, so it can be expected to
be problematic with T-17E. Dianabol will add
estrogenic effects of its own, and Androsol
will add the least side effects.
Winstrol may have some benefits that the
above-mentioned Class II steroids don’t, and
also by itself may not do everything that
they do. I have not managed to demonstrate
conclusively that this is so but it seems
to be so. You can get outstanding gains with
just a Class I and one of the first-three-mentioned Class II steroids, though.
Bill you’re awesome. We should all have to pay for this forum considering all the info we get for free whenever we damn well want it. How’s about everybody who feels the same contribute a donation to the “Bill Roberts, make an anti-aromatase safe” foundation? Sounds like a fair deal to me.
Now that the ass-kissing is over, let me see if I’ve got this straight. Basically, if I want to use T-17E and Androsol on the 2 on, 4 off schedule, I better damn well have some clomid and Proscar on hand? How would you suggest I schedule these? I assume one would use the Proscar only during the “on” times, is that correct? What about the clomid? How would you schedule it.
It’s great getting all this info before T-17E comes out, so i can be prepared when it does.
So far as “needing” Clomid and Proscar/Propecia with T-17E use, or testosterone injection use
for that matter, it’s a little too strong a word. With say 600 mg/week of injected testosterone, most men have no problem. For
example, this dosage was found safe in the
New England Journal of Medicine study. For most
men, even those with the tendency to male pattern baleness will not experience disaster from say 8 weeks of such use, let alone a few 2 week cycles.
But, some small percentage will have gyno
problems from this much testosterone, and
others will experience faster hair shedding
than others. Quite likely, they would have
been doomed to losing it quite quickly anyhow,
but even so, obviously they’d rather have
put the inevitable loss off a little further into the future.
If gyno is a worry, 50 mg/day of Clomid is
a reasonable and effective countermeasure,
and Proscar or Propecia would be most needed
during the cycle itself, but really would
be a good idea all the time if one is prone
to male pattern baldness anyway.
I’d still say that if hair loss is a concern,
N-17E is the better choice.
That’s cool. I would actually prefer N-17E, but the drug testing issue puts it out of question unless I can know for sure that it would be undetectable after 6 months. If you somehow discover that’s the case, let me know.
I should be able to get my hands on some clomid and proscar anyway, so I’ll give it a shot.
As a sidenote, how do you feel about including TA with the T-17E/Androsol stack? I know TA is another class I, so I’m not sure. How would the drug testing issue be affected by including TA?
renbolone acetate, ignoring the fact
that preparation of a nice injectable is
problematic for the average individual,
probably gives a little more bang for
the buck than T-17E. We have not formally
set a price for T-17E, but it will be
approximately the same price/performance
ratio as Androsol. Tim will probably have
my head for posting a guess at the price,
but I expect that at the maximum
recommended dose, it will be somewhere around
$3 to $5 a day if you’re buying two and
getting one free. TA on the other hand is
potentially cheaper. Since it doesn’t aromatize or have any issues with being converted by 5-AR, I’d prefer it to T-17E: however, it’s an apples and oranges comparison, since one is an injectable and the other oral; one is illegal and the other legal; and one will fail drug tests and the other will not given reasonably short clearance.
You are really and truly subject to full screen steroid testing by GC/MS? That’s unusual except in those sports that actually generate revenue and can afford it, and even then often is not done (e.g., Major League Baseball.)
I’m in the military, and I actually have a meeting with a JAG representative this Monday to discuss drug testing. I’m trying like mad to figure out exactly what I can take without failing a piss test and getting discharged. I’m going to ask him exactly what we’re tested for and possibly the name of the urinalysis testing they use. I will certainly get back to you with more information, but if you have any insight into military drug testing I would be very happy to hear it. At this point, I don’t know what I’m tested for.
Bill, does that mean you’re not even going to try to market an anti-aromatase? Or will you still be working on one, even though it’s not likely to be out for a while? I can’t see the need for such a product ever going away (at least not for 10 or so years, anyway).
Oh, we’re definitely working on it. Tim is
quite insistent on that. It’s just that
it can’t be expected we’ll have one out in
the next few months or anything like that.
I have a very cool idea that is next to
certain to be effective and non-toxic: however,
the synthesis is challenging, and there’s
a lot of testing that would need to be done.
I agree, it’s an important thing and worth
a lot of work and investment. The supplement
industry, however, isn’t one that can support
millions of dollars in R&D on gambles, so
we have to substitute smarts for dollars
wherever possible. That’s doable though.
(At least I like to think so.)
Cool. Even if it takes a year or so, it will be worth it. There is no way I can take Test (and consequently T-17E) without an antiaromatase, and until the libertarians take over, I’m not likely to be using Arimidex or Clomid…
Hey fresh, I’m also subject to military drug testing and I’d be very interested in what you find out about the tests.