Switching from Splits to TBT

Cephalic_Carnage · December 15, 2008, 4:14pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
back on track…

I’m gaining weight, roughly a pound or two a week. lifts such as incline bench and squats are increasing very slowly (had a previous post on squat problems, addressed those issues and am progressing now) but bench itself is stalled. so it seems this thread is improperly titled, but whatever. now my issue seems to be my bench plateau. been 225x(4x6) for about 5 months. weak.

any tips before I actually think about how to fix this myself or do a quick search around these forums?

Your bench will plateau if you are giving little focus to the other muscle groups involved like triceps, shoulders and even back. if these muscle groups are not getting significantly stronger, you will eventually stagnate. This is why it makes NO SENSE to avoid isolation work. It is never a hindrance. If anything, focus more on those assisting muscle groups and get them stronger. Your bench may stay where it is until you do.[/quote]

Agreed. You could also try not doing that many sets at the same weight…
That is something you’d do for ME work/singles up to triples (because that has a much higher neural component and much less size adaption) but not hypertrophy stuff… I personally find that my progress slows to a crawl or even stops when always doing something like 4 sets of 6 at the same weight.

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

josh86 · December 15, 2008, 6:15pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
back on track…

I’m gaining weight, roughly a pound or two a week. lifts such as incline bench and squats are increasing very slowly (had a previous post on squat problems, addressed those issues and am progressing now) but bench itself is stalled. so it seems this thread is improperly titled, but whatever. now my issue seems to be my bench plateau. been 225x(4x6) for about 5 months. weak.

any tips before I actually think about how to fix this myself or do a quick search around these forums?

Your bench will plateau if you are giving little focus to the other muscle groups involved like triceps, shoulders and even back. if these muscle groups are not getting significantly stronger, you will eventually stagnate. This is why it makes NO SENSE to avoid isolation work. It is never a hindrance. If anything, focus more on those assisting muscle groups and get them stronger. Your bench may stay where it is until you do.

Agreed. You could also try not doing that many sets at the same weight…
That is something you’d do for ME work/singles up to triples (because that has a much higher neural component and much less size adaption) but not hypertrophy stuff… I personally find that my progress slows to a crawl or even stops when always doing something like 4 sets of 6 at the same weight.

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.
[/quote]

People tend to think its crazy or weird for some reason when you tell them to do LESS sets to help continue progress with size/strength. Most people I know who in real life who keep asking me what I’m doing to be gaining size/strength so fast really have a hard time believing me when I tell them I only do 1 set per exercise (rest-paused)…but its true and it has been working.

If reducing your sets doesn’t work to continue progress and you’re positive its not because of food intake then perhaps swap BB bench out for a while and progress on something else until it stalls then switch back to BB bench and smash your old PRs. Bench can definitely go up without training it directly at your current level.

**Please note I said at his current level, I realize an elite powerlifter must train the bench directing for it to go up. I don’t need any newbs coming in screaming about needing to make sure to always be BB benching.

ajweins · December 15, 2008, 10:23pm

[quote]josh86 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
back on track…

I’m gaining weight, roughly a pound or two a week. lifts such as incline bench and squats are increasing very slowly (had a previous post on squat problems, addressed those issues and am progressing now) but bench itself is stalled. so it seems this thread is improperly titled, but whatever. now my issue seems to be my bench plateau. been 225x(4x6) for about 5 months. weak.

any tips before I actually think about how to fix this myself or do a quick search around these forums?

Your bench will plateau if you are giving little focus to the other muscle groups involved like triceps, shoulders and even back. if these muscle groups are not getting significantly stronger, you will eventually stagnate. This is why it makes NO SENSE to avoid isolation work. It is never a hindrance. If anything, focus more on those assisting muscle groups and get them stronger. Your bench may stay where it is until you do.

Agreed. You could also try not doing that many sets at the same weight…
That is something you’d do for ME work/singles up to triples (because that has a much higher neural component and much less size adaption) but not hypertrophy stuff… I personally find that my progress slows to a crawl or even stops when always doing something like 4 sets of 6 at the same weight.

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

People tend to think its crazy or weird for some reason when you tell them to do LESS sets to help continue progress with size/strength. Most people I know who in real life who keep asking me what I’m doing to be gaining size/strength so fast really have a hard time believing me when I tell them I only do 1 set per exercise (rest-paused)…but its true and it has been working.

If reducing your sets doesn’t work to continue progress and you’re positive its not because of food intake then perhaps swap BB bench out for a while and progress on something else until it stalls then switch back to BB bench and smash your old PRs. Bench can definitely go up without training it directly at your current level.

**Please note I said at his current level, I realize an elite powerlifter must train the bench directing for it to go up. I don’t need any newbs coming in screaming about needing to make sure to always be BB benching. [/quote]

I agree that bench can increase without directly training it. I switched from flat bench to incline for one month and came back to flat bench a couple of weeks ago and it jumped from 325 to 353.

Lorisco · December 15, 2008, 10:59pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:

I’m sick of people telling others not to do curls and other direct arm work so they end up like the OP of another thread on the front page with a 48" chest and only 15" arms.

Uhhh…ask Dave Tate or Jim Wendler how often they curl.

Bet you their arms are bigger than yours.[/quote]

Fat doesn’t count.

Xander89 · December 15, 2008, 11:28pm

my biggest gains were on sets of 6. guess I just fell in love with the idea that sets of 6 were golden for me.

I do work back, tri’s, and shoulders. pullups, rows, rack pulls, narrow grip bench, skull crushers, dips, etc. I work them, they’re getting stronger. bench, not so much. it’s weird.

blast from the past:
a while back I tried a month straight of 10+ reps. my lifts went down significantly, and not just because I was doing more reps; week after week, I couldn’t do for 10 was I did for 10 the week before. but after that month, when I went back to sets of 6, everything gained incredibly fast, even more than before the month of bad lifting.

now when I say “everything gained” let’s take bench for example: incline bench increased, fly’s increased, dips, skull crushers, pullups, rows, every lift that exercises a muscle needed in bench press, except flat BB bench press. is that unusual? either way, it’s happening again with the other lifts increasing but not bench.

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 1:56pm

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
my biggest gains were on sets of 6. guess I just fell in love with the idea that sets of 6 were golden for me.

I do work back, tri’s, and shoulders. pullups, rows, rack pulls, narrow grip bench, skull crushers, dips, etc. I work them, they’re getting stronger. bench, not so much. it’s weird.

blast from the past:
a while back I tried a month straight of 10+ reps. my lifts went down significantly, and not just because I was doing more reps; week after week, I couldn’t do for 10 was I did for 10 the week before. but after that month, when I went back to sets of 6, everything gained incredibly fast, even more than before the month of bad lifting.

now when I say “everything gained” let’s take bench for example: incline bench increased, fly’s increased, dips, skull crushers, pullups, rows, every lift that exercises a muscle needed in bench press, except flat BB bench press. is that unusual? either way, it’s happening again with the other lifts increasing but not bench.[/quote]

Sounds like your diet wasn’t sufficient, to be honest. The higher the reps (within reason) the more important your diet/protein intake becomes… It’s far less important when doing singles, doubles and triples and such.

As for sets of 6, nobody said you couldn’t do them… Just don’t do 4 sets of 6 at the same weight, one set of 6-8 is fine. 4*6 then would basically mean that the first 3 are progressively heavier warm-ups…

If you want to do 2 work sets, try doing one heavy (4-6 or 6-8) and one less heavy (8-12 or so). Try progressing on both each time you train…

So if you were to incline bench 3456 (heavy set) and, after resting, 30010…
Then next workout would be: 355 (or 350 if you’re a pussy ;P)5(or so) and 30012 (kept weight the same to get more reps before increasing).

Just a suggestion though, good luck with whatever you end up doing.

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 1:58pm

Oh yeah, just lay off the bench for a while then… Inclines, Declines, Machine/Smith presses, etc… Anything but FLat BB Bench. Do the exercise you replace bb bench with until you stall on it and then go back to bb benching.

Sentoguy · December 16, 2008, 3:40pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:

I’m sick of people telling others not to do curls and other direct arm work so they end up like the OP of another thread on the front page with a 48" chest and only 15" arms.

Uhhh…ask Dave Tate or Jim Wendler how often they curl.

Bet you their arms are bigger than yours.

Fat doesn’t count.

[/quote]

Yeah, fat, that’s why his arms are bigger. /sarcasm

Lorisco · December 16, 2008, 3:52pm

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:

I’m sick of people telling others not to do curls and other direct arm work so they end up like the OP of another thread on the front page with a 48" chest and only 15" arms.

Uhhh…ask Dave Tate or Jim Wendler how often they curl.

Bet you their arms are bigger than yours.

Fat doesn’t count.

Yeah, fat, that’s why his arms are bigger. /sarcasm[/quote]

I guess the juice may have something to do with that!

I know personally, and a lot of others I talk to do not get enough arm stimulation without doing direct arm work. So either these guys just have great genetics or have other chemical advantages.

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 4:08pm

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:

I’m sick of people telling others not to do curls and other direct arm work so they end up like the OP of another thread on the front page with a 48" chest and only 15" arms.

Uhhh…ask Dave Tate or Jim Wendler how often they curl.

Bet you their arms are bigger than yours.

Fat doesn’t count.

Yeah, fat, that’s why his arms are bigger. /sarcasm[/quote]

I have a feeling that someone is going to see this and go “see, heavy ME benching and rowing is what got him there” or some other bs.

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 9:10pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

I guess the juice may have something to do with that!

I know personally, and a lot of others I talk to do not get enough arm stimulation without doing direct arm work. So either these guys just have great genetics or have other chemical advantages.

[/quote]

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. Was this a sarcastic post?
Dave Tate does more direct arm work than I do.

detazathoth · December 16, 2008, 4:14pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:

I’m sick of people telling others not to do curls and other direct arm work so they end up like the OP of another thread on the front page with a 48" chest and only 15" arms.

Uhhh…ask Dave Tate or Jim Wendler how often they curl.

Bet you their arms are bigger than yours.

Fat doesn’t count.

Yeah, fat, that’s why his arms are bigger. /sarcasm

I guess the juice may have something to do with that!

I know personally, and a lot of others I talk to do not get enough arm stimulation without doing direct arm work. So either these guys just have great genetics or have other chemical advantages.

[/quote]

Those 2 do guys do curl…

forbes · December 16, 2008, 4:25pm

Did LIFTADICKIMUS really think dave tate’s arms were fat?

Oh for crying out loud thats so obnoxious and stupid, let alone ignorant.

Lorisco · December 16, 2008, 4:29pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

I guess the juice may have something to do with that!

I know personally, and a lot of others I talk to do not get enough arm stimulation without doing direct arm work. So either these guys just have great genetics or have other chemical advantages.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. Was this a sarcastic post?
Dave Tate does more direct arm work than I do.
[/quote]

No, actual I was serious. I assumed they didn’t do direct arm work based on Sentoguy’s response. I think you have to do direct arm work to get big arms. Compound lifts alone will not do it regardless of what the powerlifting crowd says.

Lorisco · December 16, 2008, 4:36pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.
[/quote]

References please?

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 6:24pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

References please?[/quote]

Seriously?
Watch some bodybuilding DVD’s ?

Please tell me that THAT was a sarcastic question…

Lorisco · December 16, 2008, 6:57pm

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

References please?

Seriously?
Watch some bodybuilding DVD’s ?

Please tell me that THAT was a sarcastic question…
[/quote]

Seriously, I think that is Hollywood BS. Most all the books these guys write include multiple sets of the same load. I think they do the heavy load for the camera.

Cephalic_Carnage · December 16, 2008, 7:15pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

References please?

Seriously?
Watch some bodybuilding DVD’s ?

Please tell me that THAT was a sarcastic question…

Seriously, I think that is Hollywood BS. Most all the books these guys write include multiple sets of the same load. I think they do the heavy load for the camera.

[/quote]

What? Do you seriously believe that?
Everyone all the way back to arnold and before ramps up the weight in just about every video of any big bodybuilder there is man… I’ve seen Rühl train in person doing just that, and several others.

Even Ronnie’s book, ghost-written as it may be, states that one should ramp up if doing his programs…

While there are a few books where you indeed read the stuff you described, none of these guys actually did it that way.

It just doesn’t work as fast… I have tried it time and time again, my strength gains slow down to snail’s pace…

Hey, you can believe what you want of course, but seriously… No wonder people have joint problems and overtraining issues… Doing 3-4 sets at working weight for every damn exercise feels so profoundly wrong…

Yates is actually one of the very few bb’ers of recent times who did multiple work sets at some point, but realized that it wasn’t working as it should and cut sets down from 3 to 2 and finally 1 workset per exercise…

Vince Gironda may have used 6*6 with straight sets on people, but he never produced any mass-monsters (far from it). That may work well for conditioning purposes… But not for turning a 120 lb guy at 5’10 into a 290 lb guy as fast as possible.

Multiple sets at the same weight work well when you do ME/max strength work (singles up to triples, even 4 or 5 reps for beginners), but with a few exceptions it only holds people back when used in combination with moderate to high reps.

Of course if your goal is to just be 180-210 lbs at average height, then you don’t need to worry about that…

Lorisco · December 17, 2008, 12:22am

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote: