Switching from Splits to TBT

Training Bodybuilding
181

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

I guess the juice may have something to do with that!

I know personally, and a lot of others I talk to do not get enough arm stimulation without doing direct arm work. So either these guys just have great genetics or have other chemical advantages.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning. Was this a sarcastic post?
Dave Tate does more direct arm work than I do.

No, actual I was serious. I assumed they didn’t do direct arm work based on Sentoguy’s response. I think you have to do direct arm work to get big arms. Compound lifts alone will not do it regardless of what the powerlifting crowd says.
[/quote]

Hmmm, well maybe I misunderstood the post that was originally being responded to. Dave Tate and Wendler both do direct arm work (regularly) and Tate’s arms are quite impressive. So we’re in total agreement about the need for direct arm work (unless you’re a mutant, and even then the guys with the best arms still do direct arm work).

182

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

References please?

Seriously?
Watch some bodybuilding DVD’s ?

Please tell me that THAT was a sarcastic question…

Seriously, I think that is Hollywood BS. Most all the books these guys write include multiple sets of the same load. I think they do the heavy load for the camera.

What? Do you seriously believe that?
Everyone all the way back to arnold and before ramps up the weight in just about every video of any big bodybuilder there is man… I’ve seen Rühl train in person doing just that, and several others.

Even Ronnie’s book, ghost-written as it may be, states that one should ramp up if doing his programs…

While there are a few books where you indeed read the stuff you described, none of these guys actually did it that way.

It just doesn’t work as fast… I have tried it time and time again, my strength gains slow down to snail’s pace…

Hey, you can believe what you want of course, but seriously… No wonder people have joint problems and overtraining issues… Doing 3-4 sets at working weight for every damn exercise feels so profoundly wrong…

Yates is actually one of the very few bb’ers of recent times who did multiple work sets at some point, but realized that it wasn’t working as it should and cut sets down from 3 to 2 and finally 1 workset per exercise…

Vince Gironda may have used 6*6 with straight sets on people, but he never produced any mass-monsters (far from it). That may work well for conditioning purposes… But not for turning a 120 lb guy at 5’10 into a 290 lb guy as fast as possible.

Multiple sets at the same weight work well when you do ME/max strength work (singles up to triples, even 4 or 5 reps for beginners), but with a few exceptions it only holds people back when used in combination with moderate to high reps.

Of course if your goal is to just be 180-210 lbs at average height, then you don’t need to worry about that…

Well, I have seen books from Arnold and Franco (talking about old-school) and they show sets at the same weight. But when you think about it IT is really not that different than ramping. The idea is that the volume is what causes the failure, not load. So the first sets are easier and the last is failure; all at the same load. Check out the 10x10 German Volume training, etc.

So it’s not multiple sets at max load. It’s multiple sets of the same load to failure. One is load failure and the other based on volume.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the ramping approach as well. I just think that you need periods of deloading and higher volume to consistently grow and this approach works for that change.
[/quote]

The thing about using a “volume failure” (or accumulated fatigue) approach is that it forces you to use significantly lighter loads than you are actually capable of lifting. No way in hell that you’re going to be able to do anywhere even close to 10 sets of 10 with a 10RM (I doubt even a volume machine like Bauer could do that).

It’s also far less efficient time wise and honestly I think it would be harder on the joints (more chance of an overuse injury) than ramping up to a final all out set. It’s also much slower from a progression standpoint (as Carnage pointed out) for most people.

I agree though that most people will need deloading periods. Whether that involves periods of higher volume I think is more a matter of preference, rather than necessity. But if it’s working, keep on doing it.

183

[quote]Xander89 wrote:

did you copy and paste that from somewhere? I just had the weirdest case of deja vu…[/quote]

I have had a similar conversation on this forum before, and made a similar response.

Might have been more than 1 similar conversation, now that I think about it.

184

I use both TBT and splits. I cycle between them and make good results while keeping my training engaging and fresh. They all work if applied correctly. Nothing wrong with TBT training and anybody can gain from it.

The key to TBT is the frequency of stimulation and managing fatigue. Typically it would be a three day a week routine Monday, Wednesday, Friday for example. As opposed to a full body split where volume and high intensity is relied upon with longer recovery intervals. This is accomplished by splitting the body parts being worked over the course of a full week with planned rest days between each part but typically a muscle is only exercised once per week. The third approach would be a hybrid two day split such as a push pull or upper lower split. A two day split can use a moderate amount of volume and slightly higher intensity since the recovery period is slightly longer. Normally this is done four days of the week and can include a heavy and light work day to help manage fatigue. All three approaches work fine as long as you keep these thing in mind.

So to make a TBT work you need to keep the volume per muscle relatively low and the intensity just under maximal for the majority of the cycle. It is ok to reach peaks within the cycle where you reach maximum intensity but you will not be able to sustain that every day. So plan to start a program at around 80% intensity and gradually increase the weight over the course of a few weeks until you reach 100% intensity i.e. you are lifting heavy enough weight to no longer be able to achieve the number of reps per set. Only stay at this level for a short period, perhaps a week or two at the most, then simply recalculate what 80% would be with your new personal records and reset.

If you havent already read up on periodization and tapering you might want to take a look at those principles. Those techniques must be applied to a successful TBT program. This is what makes a program like 5x5 effective. It has built in periodization and tapering by design.

People will fail on a TBT because they try and lift all out for the full duration. They simply cannot recover from that level of intensity with the short recovery periods of a TBT program.

You asked about reps and such. I would keep the total number of reps a little lower than what you would typically use on a full split depending upon how many reps per set you are using. For example, on a full split you may choose three or four exercises for three or four sets. You would work in the hypertrophy range of 8 - 12. So the low end of this would be 3 exercises * 3 sets = 9 * 10 reps per set = 90 total reps. You will want to lift a little less than this if you are going to use a lower rep scheme like a 5x5 since you will be lifting higher weights. If you built a TBT around 10 reps per set then you could do a little more. The 5x5 scheme would total 75 reps per body part.

Remember that you are going to be relying on frequency and not so much the volume although the total volume per week will be comparable. Watch for the signs of overtraining and fatigue and adjust downwards if you need to.

There is no reason that you cannot use some other set rep scheme in just the same layout as a 5x5. Just keep in mind that you will want to keep the total number of reps a little lower than what you would typically use in a full split or you will impact your ability to recover.

By now you have had plenty of experience with what you can tolerate and recover from in a split. Just use your instincts but a good rule of thumb will be to keep your TBT total reps the same or slightly less than you would use in your split routines.

Since you will be training the entire body in a single session you will want to make sure to select highly productive exercises such as the compound lifts or lifts that allow you to target the desired muscle with a maximum amount of weight. You can still use isolation exercises but choose wisely and develop your program around a few good compound lifts for each of the major muscle groups. Even the 5x5 method that is prescribed by myself and many others can be augmented safely to include a few additional isolation exercises. Just try and keep your workouts to an hour and no more than 1.5 hours. Most people simply cannot productively lift for much longer than this and still give an honest effort.

When adding in isolation work to a program like this there is no reason that you have to maintain the same set rep scheme either. The big compound lifts that will be the foundation will be working your extremities. You can go with fewer sets on the isolation work or even use a higher rep range. Even a single good working set will produce results due to the frequency. Just be sure that you are not fatiguing yourself so much that you are not recovered for the next session.

I frequently use an A/B split for my TBT routines. I like the variety and I can still make good progress on all of the lifts. This allows me to hit the muscles from multiple angles and maintain the strength for many of the lifts that I keep as staples in my split routines.

The A/B split also allows me to further work on isolation if I choose. There is nothing wrong with working triceps on the A split and biceps on the B split for example. I typically work triceps and biceps on both A and B but use this method to add in isolation work for forearms and calves sometimes.

Below is a basic TBT A/B routine that you could use with some isolation work included. Or you could use the Starting Strength 5x5 template as is. Remember that you can add isolation work to the 5x5 safely if you are not over zealous.

Definition of an A/B split as it applies to a TBT three day workout. You would perform workout A on the Monday and Friday of the first week and workout B on the Wednesday of the first week. On the second week you would simply perform workout B on Monday and Friday and workout A on Wednesday. Simply alternate each week.

Note: I marked the isolation work with an asterisk. The core lifts are lifted first and the isolation work could be removed from this program if it is too much volume for you. This is from one of my templates and I have lifted for a long time. It may be a bit much for a beginner. I tend to do antagonistic supersets with these as well to help mitigate the amount of time needed to complete the work.

Workout A:

Rear Squat 5x5
Decline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
*Leg Curl 3x8
*Lying Tricep Extension 3x8
*Incline Dumbell Curl 3x8
*Barbell Shrug 3x8
*Barbell Calf Raise 3x10
*Dumbell Hammer Curl 3x10

Workout B:

Deadlift 5x5
Incline Dumbell Press or Military Press 5x5
Weighted Chin up or Lat pull 5x5
*Leg Extension 3x8
*Dumbell Tricep Extension 3x8
*Barbell Curl 3x8
*Facepull 3x8
*Dumbell Calf Raise 3x10
*Reverse Barbell Forearm Curl 3x10

185

today’s article, ah-ha moment #5: do curls if you want big arms.

dammit. you guys got me going off-topic on my own thread. :stuck_out_tongue:

186

why would not train arms?you are only as strong as your weakest link!

187

[quote]Wilderman wrote:
I use both TBT and splits. I cycle between them and make good results while keeping my training engaging and fresh. They all work if applied correctly. Nothing wrong with TBT training and anybody can gain from it.

The key to TBT is the frequency of stimulation and managing fatigue. Typically it would be a three day a week routine Monday, Wednesday, Friday for example. As opposed to a full body split where volume and high intensity is relied upon with longer recovery intervals. This is accomplished by splitting the body parts being worked over the course of a full week with planned rest days between each part but typically a muscle is only exercised once per week. The third approach would be a hybrid two day split such as a push pull or upper lower split. A two day split can use a moderate amount of volume and slightly higher intensity since the recovery period is slightly longer. Normally this is done four days of the week and can include a heavy and light work day to help manage fatigue. All three approaches work fine as long as you keep these thing in mind.

So to make a TBT work you need to keep the volume per muscle relatively low and the intensity just under maximal for the majority of the cycle. It is ok to reach peaks within the cycle where you reach maximum intensity but you will not be able to sustain that every day. So plan to start a program at around 80% intensity and gradually increase the weight over the course of a few weeks until you reach 100% intensity i.e. you are lifting heavy enough weight to no longer be able to achieve the number of reps per set. Only stay at this level for a short period, perhaps a week or two at the most, then simply recalculate what 80% would be with your new personal records and reset.

If you havent already read up on periodization and tapering you might want to take a look at those principles. Those techniques must be applied to a successful TBT program. This is what makes a program like 5x5 effective. It has built in periodization and tapering by design.

People will fail on a TBT because they try and lift all out for the full duration. They simply cannot recover from that level of intensity with the short recovery periods of a TBT program.

You asked about reps and such. I would keep the total number of reps a little lower than what you would typically use on a full split depending upon how many reps per set you are using. For example, on a full split you may choose three or four exercises for three or four sets. You would work in the hypertrophy range of 8 - 12. So the low end of this would be 3 exercises * 3 sets = 9 * 10 reps per set = 90 total reps. You will want to lift a little less than this if you are going to use a lower rep scheme like a 5x5 since you will be lifting higher weights. If you built a TBT around 10 reps per set then you could do a little more. The 5x5 scheme would total 75 reps per body part.

Remember that you are going to be relying on frequency and not so much the volume although the total volume per week will be comparable. Watch for the signs of overtraining and fatigue and adjust downwards if you need to.

There is no reason that you cannot use some other set rep scheme in just the same layout as a 5x5. Just keep in mind that you will want to keep the total number of reps a little lower than what you would typically use in a full split or you will impact your ability to recover.

By now you have had plenty of experience with what you can tolerate and recover from in a split. Just use your instincts but a good rule of thumb will be to keep your TBT total reps the same or slightly less than you would use in your split routines.

Since you will be training the entire body in a single session you will want to make sure to select highly productive exercises such as the compound lifts or lifts that allow you to target the desired muscle with a maximum amount of weight. You can still use isolation exercises but choose wisely and develop your program around a few good compound lifts for each of the major muscle groups. Even the 5x5 method that is prescribed by myself and many others can be augmented safely to include a few additional isolation exercises. Just try and keep your workouts to an hour and no more than 1.5 hours. Most people simply cannot productively lift for much longer than this and still give an honest effort.

When adding in isolation work to a program like this there is no reason that you have to maintain the same set rep scheme either. The big compound lifts that will be the foundation will be working your extremities. You can go with fewer sets on the isolation work or even use a higher rep range. Even a single good working set will produce results due to the frequency. Just be sure that you are not fatiguing yourself so much that you are not recovered for the next session.

I frequently use an A/B split for my TBT routines. I like the variety and I can still make good progress on all of the lifts. This allows me to hit the muscles from multiple angles and maintain the strength for many of the lifts that I keep as staples in my split routines.

The A/B split also allows me to further work on isolation if I choose. There is nothing wrong with working triceps on the A split and biceps on the B split for example. I typically work triceps and biceps on both A and B but use this method to add in isolation work for forearms and calves sometimes.

Below is a basic TBT A/B routine that you could use with some isolation work included. Or you could use the Starting Strength 5x5 template as is. Remember that you can add isolation work to the 5x5 safely if you are not over zealous.

Definition of an A/B split as it applies to a TBT three day workout. You would perform workout A on the Monday and Friday of the first week and workout B on the Wednesday of the first week. On the second week you would simply perform workout B on Monday and Friday and workout A on Wednesday. Simply alternate each week.

Note: I marked the isolation work with an asterisk. The core lifts are lifted first and the isolation work could be removed from this program if it is too much volume for you. This is from one of my templates and I have lifted for a long time. It may be a bit much for a beginner. I tend to do antagonistic supersets with these as well to help mitigate the amount of time needed to complete the work.

Workout A:

Rear Squat 5x5
Decline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
*Leg Curl 3x8
*Lying Tricep Extension 3x8
*Incline Dumbell Curl 3x8
*Barbell Shrug 3x8
*Barbell Calf Raise 3x10
*Dumbell Hammer Curl 3x10

Workout B:

Deadlift 5x5
Incline Dumbell Press or Military Press 5x5
Weighted Chin up or Lat pull 5x5
*Leg Extension 3x8
*Dumbell Tricep Extension 3x8
*Barbell Curl 3x8
*Facepull 3x8
*Dumbell Calf Raise 3x10
*Reverse Barbell Forearm Curl 3x10

[/quote]

No one denies that this could work. The only problem is that the latter exercises will suffer due to systemic fatigue induced by the first 3 or 4 exercises.

188

@Wilderman, can you honestly do this and progress on all lifts without low-back issues from squatting/deadlifting heavy every workout for reps?

Sure, some powerlifting programs may have people squatting and deadlifting like that, but huh… Not something that I could do these days.

I’d at least include reverse-hypers to keep my spine from blowing up :slight_smile:

189

Forbes,

Right you are. These are not pushed at maximum intensity until you hit the peak week before the taper. And then you would taper the intensity right along with the compounds. This would be a plan for an advanced guy who has a good recovery and eating like a horse. You cannot do this without the food. It does work and you dont get the effects some see with increasing bench presses and such but skinny arms. I always felt that my arms specifically were being neglected on the 5x5 and this is what I came up with to rectify that. It works and lets me at least maintain my lifts for isolation work while still pushing my strength on the big compounds.

Cephalic_Carnage,

Yeah I have been able to maintain this. Since it is an A/B split I am either only squatting twice per week and deadlifting once or the opposite. I didnt include my core work in here which also includes unweighted hyperextensions. I just dont use weighted core work during these cycles.

This is a periodized program with a taper. It will catch up to you when you near the peak but that is what the taper is for. If the fatigue gets too high and you want to continue, you can downshift into a twice weekly heavy workout and either take the middle day off or switch it to a light workout or a 1x5 scheme. It is even ok to reduce the isolation volume to single working sets if need be. Nothing written in stone. The frequency of the lifts is key and even a single working set three times per week can produce. I have progressed with new PRs doing this. It works.

I would really suggest a new guy who isnt in tune with himself to stick to the basic 5x5. It takes some instincts and experimenting to find what you can tolerate above the basic program. I have been using 5x5 since the 80s so I have had time to tune it up a bit to my own needs.

190

[quote]Rat Poison wrote:
why would not train arms?you are only as strong as your weakest link![/quote]

Then you should train the pinky toe…at least, that’s my weakest link.

191

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Rat Poison wrote:
why would not train arms?you are only as strong as your weakest link!

Then you should train the pinky toe…at least, that’s my weakest link.[/quote]

Good comeback!!!

!

192

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Rat Poison wrote:
why would not train arms?you are only as strong as your weakest link!

Then you should train the pinky toe…at least, that’s my weakest link.[/quote]

train barefoot, should soon fix that.

193

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Rat Poison wrote:
why would not train arms?you are only as strong as your weakest link!

Then you should train the pinky toe…at least, that’s my weakest link.[/quote]

…

can I buy some weed off you?

194

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is a reason why nearly all huge bodybuilders ramp up the weight to one top-set (with possible intensity techniques added) when doing 5+ reps.

References please?

Seriously?
Watch some bodybuilding DVD’s ?

Please tell me that THAT was a sarcastic question…

Seriously, I think that is Hollywood BS. Most all the books these guys write include multiple sets of the same load. I think they do the heavy load for the camera.

What? Do you seriously believe that?
Everyone all the way back to arnold and before ramps up the weight in just about every video of any big bodybuilder there is man… I’ve seen Rühl train in person doing just that, and several others.

Even Ronnie’s book, ghost-written as it may be, states that one should ramp up if doing his programs…

While there are a few books where you indeed read the stuff you described, none of these guys actually did it that way.

It just doesn’t work as fast… I have tried it time and time again, my strength gains slow down to snail’s pace…

Hey, you can believe what you want of course, but seriously… No wonder people have joint problems and overtraining issues… Doing 3-4 sets at working weight for every damn exercise feels so profoundly wrong…

Yates is actually one of the very few bb’ers of recent times who did multiple work sets at some point, but realized that it wasn’t working as it should and cut sets down from 3 to 2 and finally 1 workset per exercise…

Vince Gironda may have used 6*6 with straight sets on people, but he never produced any mass-monsters (far from it). That may work well for conditioning purposes… But not for turning a 120 lb guy at 5’10 into a 290 lb guy as fast as possible.

Multiple sets at the same weight work well when you do ME/max strength work (singles up to triples, even 4 or 5 reps for beginners), but with a few exceptions it only holds people back when used in combination with moderate to high reps.

Of course if your goal is to just be 180-210 lbs at average height, then you don’t need to worry about that…

Well, I have seen books from Arnold and Franco (talking about old-school) and they show sets at the same weight. But when you think about it IT is really not that different than ramping. The idea is that the volume is what causes the failure, not load. So the first sets are easier and the last is failure; all at the same load. Check out the 10x10 German Volume training, etc.

So it’s not multiple sets at max load. It’s multiple sets of the same load to failure. One is load failure and the other based on volume.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the ramping approach as well. I just think that you need periods of deloading and higher volume to consistently grow and this approach works for that change.

The thing about using a “volume failure” (or accumulated fatigue) approach is that it forces you to use significantly lighter loads than you are actually capable of lifting. No way in hell that you’re going to be able to do anywhere even close to 10 sets of 10 with a 10RM (I doubt even a volume machine like Bauer could do that).

It’s also far less efficient time wise and honestly I think it would be harder on the joints (more chance of an overuse injury) than ramping up to a final all out set. It’s also much slower from a progression standpoint (as Carnage pointed out) for most people.

I agree though that most people will need deloading periods. Whether that involves periods of higher volume I think is more a matter of preference, rather than necessity. But if it’s working, keep on doing it.[/quote]

Yes, I and others have made good gains going from low volume high intensity to high volume low intensity. I like both and use both. When you stop progressing with one approach, move to the other and the gains start again. And you are correct, you don’t gain much strength on the high volume cycle, but it does help rest the CNS and deload. So when you come back to ramping with high loads you immediately start making gains again.

195

[quote]Stone101 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
I’ve probably been staying on splits for too long,

What does this mean? Most of the people who actually look like bodybuilders have always done split routines. They can’t do them “too long”.

Professor X,

I’m just curious–do you think there is any situation where TBT is superior to split training?

(If I hacked this thread, I apologize)

[/quote]

if you are training a combat sport and can only get in the gym 2 or 3 days a week. but even then i think a push pull split is far superior. DC-“type” training (notice i say “type” cause following DC to the dot is damn hard to do in itself) is also a great way of growing while only visiting the gym for short periods a few times a week. No matter how much I ate or rested I could never make gains on TBT. it sucked.

196

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I am also not writing this to start yet another debate on the issue, but damn LOOK at most of the people who think TBT is so great (not the rare exception to the rule) and make your decision from there. .[/quote]

exactly! pro BB’er use either splits or a dorian yates style of training. TBT is more for general athletic fitness or as a base. But even then I’d generously reccomend a Rip 5x5 program over TBT for a starting lifter anyday.

197

fatcat, I don’t know about the “general athletic…or as a base” comment. CT uses TBT, from what I remember. what I remember is the article said something like “the prophet of splits uses TBT. hypocrite? not really. here’s why…” the rest is fuzzy.

personally, I’d put a true beginner on higher reps. less chance of injury while he learns the form. once form is down pat, absolutely, drop the reps. but I agree, splits are “better” in my opinion for beginners.

my issue is, there is some proof that some people gain well on TBT. if it was horrible or didn’t help with muscle gains, it would have died years ago on T-Nation. but I still see articles promoting it. which is “better” for muscle gains may be up for debate, but it’s at least worth a shot in my opinion.

198

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
if it was horrible or didn’t help with muscle gains, it would have died years ago on T-Nation.
[/quote]

Got a good chuckle out of this, no offense :wink:

199

[quote]fatcat wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I am also not writing this to start yet another debate on the issue, but damn LOOK at most of the people who think TBT is so great (not the rare exception to the rule) and make your decision from there. .

exactly! pro BB’er use either splits or a dorian yates style of training. TBT is more for general athletic fitness or as a base. But even then I’d generously reccomend a Rip 5x5 program over TBT for a starting lifter anyday. [/quote]

Dorian used splits too (except for the first month or so of his training)?

200

Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:

[quote]RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.

I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
[/quote]

Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…