Switching from Splits to TBT

Training Bodybuilding
141

the best advice anyone can guve you if you are sereious about bodybuilding is to eat enormous amounts of food (that would make you very fat on its own) and train like you are going to be castrated if you don’t hit certain lifts by 6 months down the line. couple this with doing enough cardio and timing carbs to keep the fat down, and boy, no more questions about ‘i think ive been doing splits for too long’, etc

(sorry if this sounds liek crap but i just came back from one of the most brutal leg workouts of my life and i am feeling pumped)

142

3000+ calories, 300g protein, low carbs, just like any ex-fatty should (according to Thib’s most recent article). been eating that way for a couple months. I take every training session seriously.

prof x, I know you’re just venting, but the “whining” and assumed incompetence on my part (not being able to put lifting and eating right together on my own) is best used after you know me. I know nutrition is the most important part of building a better body. lifting right comes in close second.

I’m not running a marathon then eating a banana and wondering why I look like a cocaine addict. I eat a lot of food, going from most at breakfast to least at dinner, with carbs decreasing along the way.

143

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
3000+ calories, 300g protein, low carbs, just like any ex-fatty should (according to Thib’s most recent article). been eating that way for a couple months. I take every training session seriously.

prof x, I know you’re just venting, but the “whining” and assumed incompetence on my part (not being able to put lifting and eating right together on my own) is best used after you know me. I know nutrition is the most important part of building a better body. lifting right comes in close second.

I’m not running a marathon then eating a banana and wondering why I look like a cocaine addict. I eat a lot of food, going from most at breakfast to least at dinner, with carbs decreasing along the way.[/quote]

300 grams of protein is for 150 lb kids.

3000 calories at your weight? How on earth are you going to make consistent strength gains for reps with so little food?
Do you have a log somewhere?

144

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
3000+ calories, 300g protein, low carbs, just like any ex-fatty should (according to Thib’s most recent article). been eating that way for a couple months. I take every training session seriously.

prof x, I know you’re just venting, but the “whining” and assumed incompetence on my part (not being able to put lifting and eating right together on my own) is best used after you know me. I know nutrition is the most important part of building a better body. lifting right comes in close second.

I’m not running a marathon then eating a banana and wondering why I look like a cocaine addict. I eat a lot of food, going from most at breakfast to least at dinner, with carbs decreasing along the way.[/quote]

If you aren’t gaining weight, or you keep hitting walls as far as your training goes, then you aren’t eating enough, plain and simple.

145

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Ummm…do you actually believe what you just wrote?

Yes.[/quote]

Well then…good luck with that.

146

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
3000+ calories, 300g protein, low carbs, just like any ex-fatty should (according to Thib’s most recent article). been eating that way for a couple months. I take every training session seriously.[/quote]

I think CT is a great person, but I also think he is completely off base with this FFB label. Most of the guys getting into lifting now had a lifestyle completely devoid of any physical activity beforehand. This is completely unlike when we were growing up in the 80’s and there may be one or two fat kids in the entire school. That means the person ignoring LIFESTYLE in favor of this blanket label for anyone who was slightly heavy can do more harm than good…like cause someone like you to think they are eating enough even though they aren’t gaining anything all because they think they are an “ex-fatty”.

If you weren’t very active previously, you don’t base your eating or training on the untrained version of yourself.

It’s like some of you forget that these guys are here to make money, not to specifically reach the absolute truth.

147

Yo, just making an observation farther back along the pages that LIFT made towards working on training density. Don’t get me wrong, I know that, in the end, the most important factor of training for size is lifting heavier for 5-10 reps now than X amount of time ago. But, didn’t Vince Gironda strive to increase training density. The Iron Guru would have people do his 8x8 or whichever one of his training rep schemes and start them off with 30-45 seconds rest and work them down until they were eventually doing 15 seconds rest between sets.

It’s just a different way to progress.

148

Hey guys

I’m actually making a REVERSE transfer; i.e. from TBT to splits. I’ve been on a TBT programme (Joel’s Stripped Down Hypertrophy) for about 8 weeks now, with really good results. Still, I’m tempted to try splits so I can work on my weak parts, and just to see if it’s a better choice for me.

Anyway, I checked out “Designing a Damn Good Programme,” and it’s a good article. Still, I was wondering if I could incorporate some of the set-rep protocols I’ve come to know and love in the past (5x5, 10x3, 6x4, 4x8) into a split:

CT’s template is geared more towards higher reps and lower sets, unfortunately. If anyone knows of any articles that might point me in the right direction, please PM or reply!

[/hijack]

149

There are plenty of bb-ers who use full body with success. As I’ve stated before DC more closely resembles full body than it does a “traditional” bb routine.

If there are excess calories and progress on big lifts, you will grow muscle. Full body has frequency going for it, as does DC. Letting your quads recover for 5-7 days seems like an inefficient use of time, but whatever.

AND FULL BODY DOES NOT EQUAL NO ISOLATION EXERCISES!!

Squats and Milk = full body

HST = full body

All those Reg Park programs = full body

There are plenty.

Dr. Ken Leistner on why full body makes sense
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/1486/

And the 8 Weeks Out thread in RMP (forum member Peteman) shows a great physique by a natty bb that uses full body when adding mass and a split precontest.

So, fb isn’t complete bullshit when done properly…just like splits.

150

Yea but a lot of fullbody-crew people are the same ones talking about functional strength and hating on direct arm work.

151

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
3000+ calories, 300g protein, low carbs, just like any ex-fatty should (according to Thib’s most recent article). been eating that way for a couple months. I take every training session seriously.

I think CT is a great person, but I also think he is completely off base with this FFB label. Most of the guys getting into lifting now had a lifestyle completely devoid of any physical activity beforehand.

This is completely unlike when we were growing up in the 80’s and there may be one or two fat kids in the entire school. That means the person ignoring LIFESTYLE in favor of this blanket label for anyone who was slightly heavy can do more harm than good…like cause someone like you to think they are eating enough even though they aren’t gaining anything all because they think they are an “ex-fatty”.

If you weren’t very active previously, you don’t base your eating or training on the untrained version of yourself.

It’s like some of you forget that these guys are here to make money, not to specifically reach the absolute truth.[/quote]

I don’t really remember a lot of places where CT used the term or concept of FFBs and if they should avoid/be careful with carbs or not. Even if he did, i’m sure he was careful enough to mention that it’s not a rule set in stone.

But what I do remember is CT constantly telling that people with lower body fat (usually referring to single digits) are better at handling carbs than people with higher body fat and that carbs should be utilized in mass gaining phases.

I’m assuming you and others reading this would generally agree with that - I do just from personal experience and I have less of that than you. Carb intolerance can actually be developed and a version of it is called diabetes and there’s a strong correlation with obesity/fatness.

That’s an extreme example and I do understand what you’re saying about an individual assesing their food intake according to their present situation and not past. However, I believe, relatively speaking a person who has been obese, my formal definition of “former fat boy”, will be more carb intolerent than someone who hasn’t been obese beforehand.

Obviously a lot of exceptions can be found on the bell curve with other variables like genetics considered. And CT frequently reminds that what he writes are always general guidelines. So I can’t really see how what you are saying so far is different than anything CT has ever said.

I also don’t see how he was “completely off base with this FFB label” thing. Unless, you think that former obesity of an untrained individual is absolutely not correlated with their carb tolerance when they start training. Then, yes, I see how you would think he is completely off base.

Also, on a personal note of mine, if you’re referring to CT when you say that guys here are here to make money and not to reach ‘the absolute truth’, you should remember that he doesn’t get paid to NOT reach the absolute truth either.

His motivations for that -reaching the absolute truth- are totally different and if you have read any of the 10000 posts that he has written trying to answer and help people, you’ll notice that whatever is driving the man, it’s pretty fucking impressive. If you weren’t referring to him, good.

152

[quote]trextacy wrote:
There are plenty of bb-ers who use full body with success. As I’ve stated before DC more closely resembles full body than it does a “traditional” bb routine.

If there are excess calories and progress on big lifts, you will grow muscle. Full body has frequency going for it, as does DC. Letting your quads recover for 5-7 days seems like an inefficient use of time, but whatever.

AND FULL BODY DOES NOT EQUAL NO ISOLATION EXERCISES!!

Squats and Milk = full body

HST = full body

All those Reg Park programs = full body

There are plenty.

Dr. Ken Leistner on why full body makes sense
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/1486/

And the 8 Weeks Out thread in RMP (forum member Peteman) shows a great physique by a natty bb that uses full body when adding mass and a split precontest.

So, fb isn’t complete bullshit when done properly…just like splits.
[/quote]

Would you have the decency to stop trying to put the “full body” label on DC? Just because you love the idea of “full body” doesn’t mean that 2-way splits (or 3-way, since that is what’s used for the advanced DC version) are to be considered full body or resembling full body… DC does not train the whole body in one session, period.

I’ll not comment on the rest.

153

[quote]Tumbles wrote:
Yea but a lot of fullbody-crew people are the same ones talking about functional strength and hating on direct arm work.[/quote]

Or are arrogant asswipes with no results to show, but love to accuse others who came long before them of copying their methods. coughHst-guycough.

154

I’ve been doing TBT for about 3 months now. I have made gains but I feel I could have made FASTER gains had I been using a split routine. This is just a guess, and I certainly don’t have the experience some of you have.

My only issue with TBT so far has been that volume per session is really high, in the order of 30-40 sets per session. My sessions are 1.5 hrs long.

The few times I’ve kept workouts to under an hour - if I was pressed for time and had a prior engagement to head to - I have recovered faster and was not as mentally drained.

I was going to build up to either 4 TBT sessions per week or 3 sessions, twice a day (lower volume per session, of course) but feel like I’m ready for a good split routine.

I am certainly eating well but I think my training needs to be better tailored for my recovery capacity and goals.

155

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

And, did tbt make you significantly bigger?
How much strength did you gain, exactly? By how much did your numbers improve over what period of time?

Ever really focused on progression before doing full-body stuff?

How much did those last 2 exercises where you were gassed out all the time improve?

[/quote]

I wouldn’t say significantly bigger, but I did add some quality mass, about 10 lbs. over the course of 4 months. My lifts increased by about 15-20, even more on some lifts that I was really weak.

By my last two isolation exercises, I was really gassed. It’s very hard to give them their dues when you’re screaming bloody murder during some serious squatting, then benching, then shoulder pressing, etc…

156

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
trextacy wrote:
There are plenty of bb-ers who use full body with success. As I’ve stated before DC more closely resembles full body than it does a “traditional” bb routine.

If there are excess calories and progress on big lifts, you will grow muscle. Full body has frequency going for it, as does DC. Letting your quads recover for 5-7 days seems like an inefficient use of time, but whatever.

AND FULL BODY DOES NOT EQUAL NO ISOLATION EXERCISES!!

Squats and Milk = full body

HST = full body

All those Reg Park programs = full body

There are plenty.

Dr. Ken Leistner on why full body makes sense
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/1486/

And the 8 Weeks Out thread in RMP (forum member Peteman) shows a great physique by a natty bb that uses full body when adding mass and a split precontest.

So, fb isn’t complete bullshit when done properly…just like splits.

Would you have the decency to stop trying to put the “full body” label on DC? Just because you love the idea of “full body” doesn’t mean that 2-way splits (or 3-way, since that is what’s used for the advanced DC version) are to be considered full body or resembling full body… DC does not train the whole body in one session, period.

I’ll not comment on the rest.

[/quote]

Quit being a dickhead…you, of all the assholes on this forum, have the least room to demand decency from anyone. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

Also, learn to read. I noted a trait that they share and that DC has more in common with some of the other programs I mentioned in my prior post than it would, say, what someone like Professor X does. Too bad it’s more important for you to keep you unholy butt-buddy alliance with the other board gatekeepers who don’t train anything like DC than to acknowledge that fact.

Please respond to the post I made (which had substance and was intended to be helpful). Also, quit demanding pics from everyone that disagrees with you. I don’t see your pics, vids or stats or anything anywhere.

157

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
trextacy wrote:
There are plenty of bb-ers who use full body with success. As I’ve stated before DC more closely resembles full body than it does a “traditional” bb routine.

If there are excess calories and progress on big lifts, you will grow muscle. Full body has frequency going for it, as does DC. Letting your quads recover for 5-7 days seems like an inefficient use of time, but whatever.

AND FULL BODY DOES NOT EQUAL NO ISOLATION EXERCISES!!

Squats and Milk = full body

HST = full body

All those Reg Park programs = full body

There are plenty.

Dr. Ken Leistner on why full body makes sense
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/1486/

And the 8 Weeks Out thread in RMP (forum member Peteman) shows a great physique by a natty bb that uses full body when adding mass and a split precontest.

So, fb isn’t complete bullshit when done properly…just like splits.

Would you have the decency to stop trying to put the “full body” label on DC? Just because you love the idea of “full body” doesn’t mean that 2-way splits (or 3-way, since that is what’s used for the advanced DC version) are to be considered full body or resembling full body… DC does not train the whole body in one session, period.

I’ll not comment on the rest.

Quit being a dickhead…you, of all the assholes on this forum, have the least room to demand decency from anyone. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

Also, learn to read. I noted a trait that they share and that DC has more in common with some of the other programs I mentioned in my prior post than it would, say, what someone like Professor X does. Too bad it’s more important for you to keep you unholy butt-buddy alliance with the other board gatekeepers who don’t train anything like DC than to acknowledge that fact.

Please respond to the post I made (which had substance and was intended to be helpful). Also, quit demanding pics from everyone that disagrees with you. I don’t see your pics, vids or stats or anything anywhere.[/quote]

You do realize that a lot of split routines use a higher frequency than 1/week ? Many use 4-6 day cycles instead of 7. You could just as well say that DC has more in common with those…

The DC 2-way trains the body 1.5 times per week. The 3-way slightly less.
FB routines usually use at least a 2/week (rare), more often a 3+/week frequency. So FB programs resemble the routines used by Arnold, I mean, hey, back in his day everyone used 2-ways and 3-ways and a 2 or 3/week frequency… Close resemblance, huh?

How do you expect me to treat you? Full-body = Full-body. DC=half-body/2-way split. Resemblance? I could say that full body resembles a 6-way split because you have to make strength gains on both in order to grow. Great. Or you resemble me, hell, you’re human too and you breathe and eat. One can draw up a resemblance between almost everything.

I have used almost the exact same split(s) as Professor X has, and with success, so why should I go against that and say “go TBT!” ?
Where in the post you quoted did I demand your pics? I believe we’ve been through that one a long time ago in some splits vs. tbt thread with about 6000 pages…

I decided not to comment on things such as HST (well, I ended up doing it anyway) because I’m not in the mood for yet another debate on that stuff.

You can argue all you want. You’ve talked about that very thing before in that tbt vs. splits thread, simply to boost your position by having at least 1 routine often done with success by intermediate and advanced guys under your FB label (or saying that it “resembles”… Right, even if it did, tell me why it only “resembles” but does not actually use FB parameters?)…
In reality, there are no more than a couple of big/successful bodybuilders today (if even!) who do full-body routines to grow.

Dr. Ken Leistner can write all he wants about how much FB makes sense.
I hear daily how I cannot possibly make strength gains from doing 1 work set per exercise (when using 5+ reps) or some such bullshit.
Or why I should not eat 2 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight.
Or hey, there are people adamant about even Mike Mentzer’s later work being that of a genius and make perfect sense…

Is Dr. Ken a 250+ lb bodybuilder? No? Hmm.
He may know his stuff about strongman and powerlifting… I’m not overly familiar with his non-bb work… But he knows about as much about making people huge as fast as possible as a certain still active HIT proponent does…

158

[quote]trextacy wrote:

Quit being a dickhead…you, of all the assholes on this forum, have the least room to demand decency from anyone. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

Also, learn to read. I noted a trait that they share and that DC has more in common with some of the other programs I mentioned in my prior post than it would, say, what someone like Professor X does. Too bad it’s more important for you to keep you unholy butt-buddy alliance with the other board gatekeepers who don’t train anything like DC than to acknowledge that fact.

Please respond to the post I made (which had substance and was intended to be helpful). Also, quit demanding pics from everyone that disagrees with you. I don’t see your pics, vids or stats or anything anywhere.[/quote]

I ask for pics because it would immediately end 90% of the debates that take place here. Most of the people here arguing for total body routines as if they are what all beginners should use are small themselves. They are not impressive in the least yet are some of the first to tell everyone else how to train. Most of the people telling everyone else to avoid direct biceps work have TINY arms. Why ignore this?

Results DO matter even though some people with no results would love for that to change just so they have relevance.

159

back on track…

I’m gaining weight, roughly a pound or two a week. lifts such as incline bench and squats are increasing very slowly (had a previous post on squat problems, addressed those issues and am progressing now) but bench itself is stalled. so it seems this thread is improperly titled, but whatever. now my issue seems to be my bench plateau. been 225x(4x6) for about 5 months. weak.

any tips before I actually think about how to fix this myself or do a quick search around these forums?

160

[quote]Xander89 wrote:
back on track…

I’m gaining weight, roughly a pound or two a week. lifts such as incline bench and squats are increasing very slowly (had a previous post on squat problems, addressed those issues and am progressing now) but bench itself is stalled. so it seems this thread is improperly titled, but whatever. now my issue seems to be my bench plateau. been 225x(4x6) for about 5 months. weak.

any tips before I actually think about how to fix this myself or do a quick search around these forums?[/quote]

Your bench will plateau if you are giving little focus to the other muscle groups involved like triceps, shoulders and even back. if these muscle groups are not getting significantly stronger, you will eventually stagnate. This is why it makes NO SENSE to avoid isolation work. It is never a hindrance. If anything, focus more on those assisting muscle groups and get them stronger. Your bench may stay where it is until you do.