Switching from Splits to TBT

Training Bodybuilding
101

[quote]Der Candy wrote:
Okay I don’t think i am quite getting the stuff going on here…

…if someone’s goal is to build muscle mass… then why wouldn’t they train in the way that has been show by overall results to induce hypertrophy the fastest?

If someone’s goals are to build up their muscles symmetrically, why would they ignore training a particular muscle and hope that it gets developed with everything else. WHy do people believe taht if i dobicep exercises after my back work, it will somehow cause a cataclysmic event in my body where i will fail to add size or strength?

You grow muscle by lifting heavy weight, yes. But why limit yourself? Even powerlifters do arm work, and they train for ‘performance’. Is the act of training my biceps directly going to somehow take away from my real world strength? If i want large arms… why would I neglect training them? To do powercleans?

I myself use a PLing bench style. My chest is still without a doubt the primary mover, infact, in every single press where my chest is included it takes the brunt of the work. WHy would I just do bench and dips and hope that my triceps will grow optimally as well when i could add some direct arm work after my chest (or whenever) and KNOW and SEE the benefits?

When I train back my goal is to (you guessed it) train my back. I don’t to pullups for my biceps. My biceps also don’t get much stimulus from rows. Therrefore it makes sense for me to do curls in order to make sure my biceps get hit.

I just don’t see why people need to think in extremes. Why do you need to act as if direct arm work is borderline evil? It just doesn’t make sense. You need direct arm work to cover all your bases and in order for your compounds to actually keep improving after a certain point. Whatever happened to training not only the heavy compound work… but your arms too?[/quote]

“Everything works, nothing works forever.”

I don’t know, maybe that statement isn’t true.

102

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?[/quote]

Oh, and you also completely missed his point (on purpose, of course). Seeing as how quite a few Pros and almost EVERY NPC or good amateur bodybuilder doesn’t have much if any more time to train than you… How come they can fit splits and, gasp, direct arm work in but you can’t?

103

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
BB bench does Jackshit for triceps unless you are doing it flat out wrong (which will result in a shoulder injury down the road).

???

Really, that is your answer?

Seems like we keep going in circles here. Though, circular logic does work for building one’s body.

How do I get big? By lifting heavy weights.

How do I lift heavy weights? By getting big.

Though, I guess you can figure out the one parameter missing from the equation.
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
BB bench does Jackshit for triceps unless you are doing it flat out wrong (which will result in a shoulder injury down the road).

???

Really, that is your answer?

Seems like we keep going in circles here. Though, circular logic does work for building one’s body.

How do I get big? By lifting heavy weights.

How do I lift heavy weights? By getting big.

Though, I guess you can figure out the one parameter missing from the equation.

Again, ignoring the rest of my post? And how come you are jumping from one topic to the next whenever someone refutes your bs? Might you be a troll? Hmmm…

How can what I say be refuted of you have never tried it? n myy initial post I was talking to people who might need a break from typical BB type training to make some additional mass gains by trying something different. Are you trying to suggest that I am wrong and if so, why?

This whole argument started because I questioned why someone would be doing direct arm work for mass on a TBT type protocol. That is it. And the reason I question it is because it isn’t different than what one would normally do on BB protocol. You immediately jumped all over my post because it doesn’t fit with your reality but the truth is there is MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT.

Try the example I laid out for two months and then go back to your method and tell me you don’t notice a difference in your strength and size. Then you can tell me I am “full of shit”.[/quote]

Why do you keep talking about how great your TBT is for increasing strength vs bodybuilding style split? You act as if the people doing BB splits aren’t making sure they are adding weight every week. The ones who are doing it right are adding 10-30 lbs. per week for the same or more reps (in a moderate rep range ie 6-12).

104

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

[/quote]

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.

105

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?[/quote]

no you can still train for aesthetic purposes, but your lack of time you can spend in the gym and your training style will somewhat hinder what you would be trying to achieve.

This assuming you want to build larger than normal muscles?

This is still a bodybuilding…not a stay fit for my weekend activities forum.

I understand your goals and my goals are different and I have no problem with that. To each his own.

Sometimes life gets in the way for certain people and their training will suffer.

It sounds like you might actually prefer a split or bb type training but can’t because of a time issue?

Imo TBT is far inferior to a bodybuilding type training, some isolation work is necessary. But if you don’t have the time to dedicate to that type of training then you must make do with what you have.

I know your goals seem to not include building large muscles, but why come to a bodybuilding forum and argue with a bunch of people who do. This is still a bodybuilding forum. Even if somebody doesn’t want to be a pro BBer I’m assuming they want to look bigger or more muscular than normal…

I really don’t know what the argument is, besides maybe the differences between TBT and bodybuilding type splits?

Bodybuilding splits are superior for people who want to build muscle…TBT and the crossfit people who do those jerking pullups may keep one fit…but you will not make as much progress as far as building muscle as a split program.

I hope I’m on the same page with everybody here.

DG

106

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

“Everything works, nothing works forever.”

I don’t know, maybe that statement isn’t true.[/quote]

Really, everything works? Guess I’ll go buy myself an X-Box and play something… Surely holding the controller will make my arms bigger, seeing as how everything works, huh?

Or I could do bosu-ball pushups with no rest until I puke… Very effective for making one big fast.

And then I just keep changing what I do… From X-box playing to bosu-ball pushups to curling bottles, to reading a book… Cause nothing works forever, but I’ll surely get huge by going from one bs-method to the next!

107

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.[/quote]

Quite a bunch of them do indeed train for roughly 4 hours a week.

And of course you train around them all the time, but you won’t be able to prove it and that’s fine because this is the internet and you can post whatever bs you want… Which is what you’ve been doing for hours now.

Apparently you have plenty of time for sitting in front of a computer and trolling internet forums, might want to try to use that time for training and food consumption?

108

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?[/quote]

I fail to understand why you are on a bodybuilding forum…

109

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.[/quote]

Most bodybuilders even the few pro’s I’m lucky to know spend no more than an hr or hr and 15 mins in the gym 5 days a week. Some 6.

When prepping for a show with cardio it’s a little more time…but then again they are competitive bodybuilders.

If your only getting 2 hrs a week in the gym…it won’t matter what program your on…it will not work.

4 hrs would be my minimum.

With 4 hrs you can get a decent split in there.

IMO adding in direct isolation work will definitely improve your physique. There is only soo much you can gain from the ‘core’ lifts or compound movements.

‘everything works…nothing works forever’

I don’t really like that statement. Some people still train the same way as the men did in the Golden era and it’s still working. Many of the DC guys who have been at it for years are still making improvements.

A slight tweak in training can cause new growth. It doesn’t mean you have to completely overhaul an entire program imo.

DG

110

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.

Most bodybuilders even the few pro’s I’m lucky to know spend no more than an hr or hr and 15 mins in the gym 5 days a week. Some 6.

When prepping for a show with cardio it’s a little more time…but then again they are competitive bodybuilders.

If your only getting 2 hrs a week in the gym…it won’t matter what program your on…it will not work.

4 hrs would be my minimum.

With 4 hrs you can get a decent split in there.

IMO adding in direct isolation work will definitely improve your physique. There is only soo much you can gain from the ‘core’ lifts or compound movements.

‘everything works…nothing works forever’

I don’t really like that statement. Some people still train the same way as the men did in the Golden era and it’s still working. Many of the DC guys who have been at it for years are still making improvements.

A slight tweak in training can cause new growth. It doesn’t mean you have to completely overhaul an entire program imo.

DG[/quote]

A sensible bodypart split (training 6 days a week and one bodypart per day… With one bodypart being trained twice) can easily consist of sessions lasting for about 35 minutes each… That’s 3.5 hours total… You could cut out the 6th day to reduce the time even more.
Hmm.

111

[quote]josh86 wrote:
Why do you keep talking about how great your TBT is for increasing strength vs bodybuilding style split? You act as if the people doing BB splits aren’t making sure they are adding weight every week. The ones who are doing it right are adding 10-30 lbs. per week for the same or more reps (in a moderate rep range ie 6-12).
[/quote]

I don’t know and never claimed to know. I just posted a template that I have used with great success in the past and thought someone might get something useful out of it; especially since the forum topic was something I have experience with – something DIFFERENT than a typical BB split routine. I even stated from the get that it would not make someone look like a BBer…so why is everyone getting all emotional about it?

People that whine and bitch about the forum quality going down because of the BB detractors, etc. need to use this as an example of it not being us that is the problem.

Most of these things could be avoided if you learned how to read.

112

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I only suggest it would be good because it would force a BBer to change his training protocol.
[/quote]

And why would that be a good thing? Obviously what BB’ers are doing is working for them. If something is successfully taking you to your goals, why would you want to change it?

[quote]
All things being equal, I truly believe size is related to performance.[/quote]

Performance of what though?

113

[quote]josh86 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

I fail to understand why you are on a bodybuilding forum…[/quote]

I have a feeling that he plans to say something like “this forum is not for competitive bodybuilders only”, completely ignoring the fact that most of us are neither competing nor do most here have any more time than he supposedly has.

114

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.[/quote]

The time limit argument doesn’t really hold water, in my opinion. I used to be a die-hard TBT guy, but I eventually had to realize that it allowed for neither great strength nor size gains, due to how little I was recovering between sessions. Even one lift per muscle group, pushed hard enough to elicit change, was too much when done three times a week. Once I finally started being honest with myself, I kept pushing back the frequency to maximize recovery-adding a little volume to pick up the slack-until I found myself in a full-blown split. Not only that, but I don’t spend any more total time in the gym per week than I did on TBT.

It’s all about stimulation and recovery, not total time spent lifting. The former just never worked for me with TBT.

115

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
josh86 wrote:
Why do you keep talking about how great your TBT is for increasing strength vs bodybuilding style split? You act as if the people doing BB splits aren’t making sure they are adding weight every week. The ones who are doing it right are adding 10-30 lbs. per week for the same or more reps (in a moderate rep range ie 6-12).

I don’t know and never claimed to know. I just posted a template that I have used with great success in the past and thought someone might get something useful out of it; especially since the forum topic was something I have experience with – something DIFFERENT than a typical BB split routine. I even stated from the get that it would not make someone look like a BBer…so why is everyone getting all emotional about it?

People that whine and bitch about the forum quality going down because of the BB detractors, etc. need to use this as an example of it not being us that is the problem.

Most of these things could be avoided if you learned how to read.[/quote]

dood enough already.

how are you going to know whats good for a bodybuilder if your goals are completely different?

If you consider yourself a bodybuilding ‘detractor’ then I think it’s time you left.

The forum is titled BODYBUILDING. Go find your own place to play and get out of my sandbox if your goals cannot be correlated in any way with bodybuilding.

DG

116

[quote]leon79 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Sorry dood but I know some prop BBers who have a life and do perform other activities outside of the weight room.

great! But you miss the point. Why would I, or someone like me, train like a pro BBer for my weekend warrior activities, etc? I do not have hours upon hours to do bodypart splits. I do however, have 2 - 4 hours per week to set aside in the gym. I have to make the most of it. For people like me real BB training is not an option.

Does this mean I cannot train for aesthetic purposes?

2-4 hours and you can’t fit a proper split in there? Maybe you just suck at making routines?

Some weeks it is less depending on my work schedule. So yes, I do suck at making a routine and following it.

I am also not buying the fact that pro BBers spend less than 4 hours a week in the gym. I train around these guys all the time. I know, at least from what they tell me, they spend more than that per week in the gym – they are competition level BBers, not frat-boys who pretend.

The time limit argument doesn’t really hold water, in my opinion. I used to be a die-hard TBT guy, but I eventually had to realize that it allowed for neither great strength nor size gains, due to how little I was recovering between sessions. Even one lift per muscle group, pushed hard enough to elicit change, was too much when done three times a week. Once I finally started being honest with myself, I kept pushing back the frequency to maximize recovery-adding a little volume to pick up the slack-until I found myself in a full-blown split. Not only that, but I don’t spend any more total time in the gym per week than I did on TBT.

It’s all about stimulation and recovery, not total time spent lifting. The former just never worked for me with TBT.[/quote]

Good post.

117

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
no you can still train for aesthetic purposes, but your lack of time you can spend in the gym and your training style will somewhat hinder what you would be trying to achieve.
.
.
.
I hope I’m on the same page with everybody here.

DG
[/quote]

I really appreciate and respect your response. I truly believe there is no reason why people that have different goals and experience cannot learn from each other – that is the beauty of this place. I respect BBers for the stuff they will put their bodies thru just too “look good” even though I don’t have the guts to do it myself.

Anyone that wants to change his body is in the class of “bodybuilder” in my opinion. Though, I try and make the distinction between pros and noncompetitive amateurs because some people get testy, no pun intended, about that issue.

I also understand your frustration with the forums though I think it is misplaced. This site could not exist if it only catered to professional and competition BBers. Sometimes, one is going to have to ignore a few posts – maybe more in your case because you only come here for real professional advice. Maybe it doesn’t bother me as much because I mostly post in the PWO forum and have been dealing with “trolls” from the get. Though, I kind of like them because I have learned to just view them as random entertainment.

118

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
no you can still train for aesthetic purposes, but your lack of time you can spend in the gym and your training style will somewhat hinder what you would be trying to achieve.
.
.
.
I hope I’m on the same page with everybody here.

DG

I really appreciate and respect your response. I truly believe there is no reason why people that have different goals and experience cannot learn from each other – that is the beauty of this place. I respect BBers for the stuff they will put their bodies thru just too “look good” even though I don’t have the guts to do it myself.

Anyone that wants to change his body is in the class of “bodybuilder” in my opinion. Though, I try and make the distinction between pros and noncompetitive amateurs because some people get testy, no pun intended, about that issue.

I also understand your frustration with the forums though I think it is misplaced. This site could not exist if it only catered to professional and competition BBers. Sometimes, one is going to have to ignore a few posts – maybe more in your case because you only come here for real professional advice. Maybe it doesn’t bother me as much because I mostly post in the PWO forum and have been dealing with “trolls” from the get. Though, I kind of like them because I have learned to just view them as random entertainment.[/quote]

Your obvious trolling strategy isn’t even amusing… At least nominal prospect managed to get a few goodies like “no need to try to get bigger when you’re young, you’ll get big automatically as you get older(fatter)” in. You’re just some third-rate troll with too much time on his hands…

119

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
this is the internet and you can post whatever bs you want… Which is what you’ve been doing for hours now.

Apparently you have plenty of time for sitting in front of a computer and trolling internet forums, might want to try to use that time for training and food consumption?

[/quote]

Care to comment on this, my little troll friend?

120

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
no you can still train for aesthetic purposes, but your lack of time you can spend in the gym and your training style will somewhat hinder what you would be trying to achieve.
.
.
.
I hope I’m on the same page with everybody here.

DG

I really appreciate and respect your response. I truly believe there is no reason why people that have different goals and experience cannot learn from each other – that is the beauty of this place. I respect BBers for the stuff they will put their bodies thru just too “look good” even though I don’t have the guts to do it myself.

Anyone that wants to change his body is in the class of “bodybuilder” in my opinion. Though, I try and make the distinction between pros and noncompetitive amateurs because some people get testy, no pun intended, about that issue.

I also understand your frustration with the forums though I think it is misplaced. This site could not exist if it only catered to professional and competition BBers. Sometimes, one is going to have to ignore a few posts – maybe more in your case because you only come here for real professional advice. Maybe it doesn’t bother me as much because I mostly post in the PWO forum and have been dealing with “trolls” from the get. Though, I kind of like them because I have learned to just view them as random entertainment.[/quote]

OK, well I never have a problem with somebody who does not wish to be a bodybuilder as long as they aren’t spouting off anti-bodybuilding stuff. lol

I don’t think this forum needs to be a competitive bber forum or pro forum, etc. BUT I do believe if your in a bodybuilding forum you should at least want to build bigger than normal muscles.

If your in this forum without that goal in mind it gets to me because I feel those people are here just to clutter the place and get in the way…make arguments about stuff we don’t need to be debating on…know what I mean. I don’t go to the steroid forum and bash steroids…or the combat sports and bash MMA. Know what I’m sayin?

Thats my only gripe…

DG