[quote]Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.[/quote]
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
[quote]Short Hoss wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
[/quote]
Ummmm, to allow supercompensation effect to occur? To give your CNS a needed break (assuming you’ve been training hard)? to give joints/tendons a break?
Deloading helps you get stronger and bigger. DC calls them “cruises”, some people call it deloading, others just call it common sense.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
Short Hoss wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
Ummmm, to allow supercompensation effect to occur? To give your CNS a needed break (assuming you’ve been training hard)? to give joints/tendons a break?
Deloading helps you get stronger and bigger. DC calls them “cruises”, some people call it deloading, others just call it common sense.[/quote]
Well, we don’t actually lift lighter while cruising… Just without rest-pause and not to failure but the weight stays the same 
On a 5-way split (like the one the prof uses) and with the standard bb ramping approach, deloading shouldn’t really be necessary unless you go crazy with the volume…
[quote]trextacy wrote:
Short Hoss wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
Ummmm, to allow supercompensation effect to occur? To give your CNS a needed break (assuming you’ve been training hard)? to give joints/tendons a break?
Deloading helps you get stronger and bigger. DC calls them “cruises”, some people call it deloading, others just call it common sense.[/quote]
They should call it, “use as needed IF you need it and not as part of some predetermined program”. I don’t “deload”. I take a rest day as needed. If your tendons need that much of a break, perhaps you are doing something wrong.
When did “deloading” become a necessity in training?
You are “supercompensating” while resting. That is a factor related to diet and the frequency in which you are training a given muscle group.
Do you think you aren’t “supercompensating” unless you are “deloading”? If you are training the muscle at all you aren’t resting it or allowing for supercompensation.
Question, how the hell do some of you think other people got big if they haven’t been “deloading”?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Short Hoss wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
Ummmm, to allow supercompensation effect to occur? To give your CNS a needed break (assuming you’ve been training hard)? to give joints/tendons a break?
Deloading helps you get stronger and bigger. DC calls them “cruises”, some people call it deloading, others just call it common sense.
They should call it, “use as needed IF you need it and not as part of some predetermined program”. I don’t “deload”. I take a rest day as needed. If your tendons need that much of a break, perhaps you are doing something wrong.
When did “deloading” become a necessity in training?
You are “supercompensating” while resting. That is a factor related to diet and the frequency in which you are training a given muscle group.
Do you think you aren’t “supercompensating” unless you are “deloading”? If you are training the muscle at all you aren’t resting it or allowing for supercompensation.
Question, how the hell do some of you think other people got big if they haven’t been “deloading”?[/quote]
I believe the CNS needs an occassional break from heavy intense lifting. This can mean a 7-10 layoff from time to time, or a deloading period where you lift less (or just less intensly, as CC noted DC use where no intensity techniques used).
On a 5 day split, muscles get plenty of rest but the CNS doesn’t get as much. Generally a weekend of rest is good but I do think that giving it a break from time to time only helps you achieve your goals.
I’m not saying someone can’t get big without doing it (esp. if they are young), I’m just saying that if someone feels the need to take a break (their body is telling them that) then they should listen. Doing that a couple of times a year won’t keep you from getting big and may allow you to reboot, as it were.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Short Hoss wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Deloading is bullshit and should never be used. I mean seriously; if your goal is to get STRONGER, why the fuck would you go LIGHTER?!
Ummmm, to allow supercompensation effect to occur? To give your CNS a needed break (assuming you’ve been training hard)? to give joints/tendons a break?
Deloading helps you get stronger and bigger. DC calls them “cruises”, some people call it deloading, others just call it common sense.
They should call it, “use as needed IF you need it and not as part of some predetermined program”. I don’t “deload”. I take a rest day as needed. If your tendons need that much of a break, perhaps you are doing something wrong.
When did “deloading” become a necessity in training?
You are “supercompensating” while resting. That is a factor related to diet and the frequency in which you are training a given muscle group.
Do you think you aren’t “supercompensating” unless you are “deloading”? If you are training the muscle at all you aren’t resting it or allowing for supercompensation.
Question, how the hell do some of you think other people got big if they haven’t been “deloading”?
I believe the CNS needs an occassional break from heavy intense lifting. This can mean a 7-10 layoff from time to time, or a deloading period where you lift less (or just less intensly, as CC noted DC use where no intensity techniques used).
On a 5 day split, muscles get plenty of rest but the CNS doesn’t get as much. Generally a weekend of rest is good but I do think that giving it a break from time to time only helps you achieve your goals.
I’m not saying someone can’t get big without doing it (esp. if they are young), I’m just saying that if someone feels the need to take a break (their body is telling them that) then they should listen. Doing that a couple of times a year won’t keep you from getting big and may allow you to reboot, as it were.[/quote]
My perspective, take it or leave it.
If your CNS needs a break like that, I seriously doubt your potential as far as building muscle goes. I say that because traits desirable for building big muscles include above average recovery and the ability to FORCE your “CNS”, mentality, or whatever you want to call it to ADAPT to increasing training stimulus.
When you go through boot camp in the military, the goal is to get you into a mental state where you EXPECT some shit to go down. Your “CNS” adapts to the stress which allows you to push even harder.
In other words, if you train like your body is weak and needs breaks often, it will remain weak and need breaks often.
If you think the people who got big did so by approaching it this way…you are mistaken.
They beat the living shit out of their muscles and told them to deal with it. They lifted until blood was on the floor, wiped it up and did another set.
This is not for everybody.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
Doing the same thing implies PYRAMIDING. If I literally did the same thing with regards to sets, reps and exercises, there is no doubt I would have stagnated. Increasing the reps, changing volume and even grouping muscles together differently is all of the “shocking” most people need with regards to muscle growth. Why would “deloading” be a requirement for progress?
Further, this is the bodybuilding forum. I would assume we are not catering everything for those with the weakest genetic potential here. This site has enough of that as it is with everyone and their momma thinking they are “hardgainers”.[/quote]
The idea is that you deload WHEN you can no longer make progress with the same reps and load. If that is the case you would not be able to increase volume (as you stated) unless you deload to some extent.
Also, many systems, including DC, advocate deloading or reducing the intensity to make continual progress. I don’t know anyone who can continue with the same intensity without occasionally giving their CNS a break.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
My perspective, take it or leave it.
If your CNS needs a break like that, I seriously doubt your potential as far as building muscle goes. I say that because traits desirable for building big muscles include above average recovery and the ability to FORCE your “CNS”, mentality, or whatever you want to call it to ADAPT to increasing training stimulus.
When you go through boot camp in the military, the goal is to get you into a mental state where you EXPECT some shit to go down. Your “CNS” adapts to the stress which allows you to push even harder.
In other words, if you train like your body is weak and needs breaks often, it will remain weak and need breaks often.
If you think the people who got big did so by approaching it this way…you are mistaken.
They beat the living shit out of their muscles and told them to deal with it. They lifted until blood was on the floor, wiped it up and did another set.
This is not for everybody.[/quote]
That’s all well and good, but if you want to compete in an athletic event, particularly strength sports, you better get used to the idea.
Even in bodybuilding, isn’t it customary to train your ass off for three days while you deplete glycogen, and then rest for two or three days while you carb load? It’s the same idea…you have to beat yourself up and allow your body to supercompensate.
As far as something like a planned deload every 4 weeks or 8 weeks or whatever, most of the strongest people I know use them. I get stronger when I drop the volume to 60 percent and the intensity to 90 percent every fourth week. As far as building muscle, maybe you need it, maybe you don’t…as mentioned before, the DC guys unload regularly, usually around the 8 week mark.
People would do well not to let histrionics and appeals to manhood be the sole governor over their training decisions. There’s more to it.
[quote]Ramo wrote:
That’s all well and good, but if you want to compete in an athletic event, particularly strength sports, you better get used to the idea.[/quote]
This is the bodybuilding forum.
[quote]
Even in bodybuilding, isn’t it customary to train your ass off for three days while you deplete glycogen, and then rest for two or three days while you carb load? It’s the same idea…you have to beat yourself up and allow your body to supercompensate.[/quote]
That isn’t some rule and you will find 30 different strategies for contest prep if you speak to 30 different people from drinking wine right before the comp to continuing to train right up to the show. That is too individual for it to be thought of as some standard practice that ALL bodybuilders should adhere to for contest prep. Ask Dennis James about how iffy contest prep can be.
Further, that has NOTHING to do with supercompensation. If you are typing right now, your muscles should be “supercompensating” to some degree. They will do even more when at rest.
[quote]
As far as something like a planned deload every 4 weeks or 8 weeks or whatever, most of the strongest people I know use them. I get stronger when I drop the volume to 60 percent and the intensity to 90 percent every fourth week. As far as building muscle, maybe you need it, maybe you don’t…as mentioned before, the DC guys unload regularly, usually around the 8 week mark.
People would do well not to let histrionics and appeals to manhood be the sole governor over their training decisions. There’s more to it.[/quote]
There is more to it…like realizing that your “CNS” is not some static entity and that you can train yourself to handle even more stress (ESPECIALLY AS A BEGINNER AND EVEN INTERMEDIATE) which will benefit you more in the long run than trying to toss in “deload” sessions randomly unless you are advanced enough to know when/IF you actually need something like that.
Ok guys, again:
A 5-day split trained over 5 or 6 days a week, where you usually train 1 muscle-group per day for only about 35 mins or so while ramping up to one top-set instead of using multiple work sets is very easy on the CNS…
You also usually only do 1 bigger movement
per day, maybe 2 AT MOST.
If your back day consists of t-bar rows, pulldowns and some machine row and maybe hyperextensions with no deadlifting at all then chances are you won’t need much time off…
Add to that the food intake of bodybuilders who want to compete in the heavies or superheavies…
In DC, you need a “cruise” period because we we have
a) higher frequency per muscle-group and
b) train half the body each workout(on the 2-way at least, not on the 3-way) and
c) We (usually… the exercise selection is up to the trainee and not set in stone) have lots of very taxing movements in our rotation and
d) we use DC rest-pause which cuts WAY more into recovery that a regular work-set.
These are 2 different training approaches and it’s absolutely idiotic to compare them as far as how much they tax your system etc.
Regular bodypart splits only need actual deload periods if you have an unusual amount of/are constantly deadlifting and such in there as well as when you’re using the same weight for multiple work-sets with moderate to high reps (why-ever you would want to do that on a bodypart split and on higher rep work and kill your rate of strength gains as well as offset the recovery-bonus of such splits is beyond me, but I see it all the time anyway. Even if you stop a rep or two short of failure, the overall volume is still taxes joints, tendons and nervous system more than the standard bodybuilding approach. There’s a reason you see so many young guys with overuse-injuries/tendonitis now).
You’ll still end up stalling at some point but to get the weights moving you won’t need an actual deload at all.
pX has already written about his way of handling stalled exercises on a bodypart split and so have others.
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know about that, considering how most of them spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know that, considering how they spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
[/quote]
That’s exactly what the problem is and why they think anyone who isn’t using the latest terminology and “deloading” must be some genetic freak. I had never even heard of the damn word until recently but apparently it is now a NECESSITY.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know that, considering how they spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
That’s exactly what the problem is and why they think anyone who isn’t using the latest terminology and “deloading” must be some genetic freak. I had never even heard of the damn word until recently but apparently it is now a NECESSITY.
[/quote]
No, the concept has been around a while it just got renamed. It used to be called slacking and lazy. Most (not all) people could use those words as substitutions.
I always thought that deloading was very subjective and basically done by very advanced olympic/powerlifters who do a ton of CNS intensive heavy lifting. I think most people who are not at that caliber would do better to slide in an extra day or two of rest when they feel like they are dragging ass, instead of taking a scheduled week off and then feeling hardcore about it.
I mean I have been training full bore for months now with only an extra day or two off when I feel exceptionally drained (especially in this northern winter darkness) but othwerwise I think the CNS has been portrayed by some authors over the last few years as excessively fragile and unadaptive.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know that, considering how they spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
That’s exactly what the problem is and why they think anyone who isn’t using the latest terminology and “deloading” must be some genetic freak. I had never even heard of the damn word until recently but apparently it is now a NECESSITY.
No, the concept has been around a while it just got renamed. It used to be called slacking and lazy. Most (not all) people could use those words as substitutions.[/quote]
Yes, the concept has been around for awhile and is based on a new-fangled idea we like to call ‘science’. You know, the same methodology that now allows you to send email instead of writing a letters and placing it in the mail box?
Oh, but no, since mailing a paper letter did work in the past there is no reason to change because thousands of people have done it with good results. (sarcasm implied)
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know that, considering how they spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
That’s exactly what the problem is and why they think anyone who isn’t using the latest terminology and “deloading” must be some genetic freak. I had never even heard of the damn word until recently but apparently it is now a NECESSITY.
No, the concept has been around a while it just got renamed. It used to be called slacking and lazy. Most (not all) people could use those words as substitutions.
Yes, the concept has been around for awhile and is based on a new-fangled idea we like to call ‘science’. You know, the same methodology that now allows you to send email instead of writing a letters and placing it in the mail box?
Oh, but no, since mailing a paper letter did work in the past there is no reason to change because thousands of people have done it with good results. (sarcasm implied)
[/quote]
Judging from the pics I have seen, I am guessing there may be TWO people on this whole site working so hard in the gym for hours a day that they need “deloading” methodically added into their workout.
For a group of people who all think they are hardgainers, why do they also think they are “elite lifters”?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m not really in the mood to explain every tiny detail of how to train on a bodybuilding -style bodypart (5-6 way) split here (again).
You’d think that people on here would already know that, considering how they spend more time reading articles than training and eating…
That’s exactly what the problem is and why they think anyone who isn’t using the latest terminology and “deloading” must be some genetic freak. I had never even heard of the damn word until recently but apparently it is now a NECESSITY.
No, the concept has been around a while it just got renamed. It used to be called slacking and lazy. Most (not all) people could use those words as substitutions.
Yes, the concept has been around for awhile and is based on a new-fangled idea we like to call ‘science’. You know, the same methodology that now allows you to send email instead of writing a letters and placing it in the mail box?
Oh, but no, since mailing a paper letter did work in the past there is no reason to change because thousands of people have done it with good results. (sarcasm implied)
Judging from the pics I have seen, I am guessing there may be TWO people on this whole site working so hard in the gym for hours a day that they need “deloading” methodically added into their workout.
For a group of people who all think they are hardgainers, why do they also think they are “elite lifters”?[/quote]
Do you mean hardgainer as in not chemically enhanced? If so, I would say yes, a lot of guys on this site gain muscle hard through intense training, good nutrition, and applying all and any reasonable training methods to make as much progress as possible.
This may not make them elite in terms of those on the juice, but certainly advanced in the art of natural bodybuilding.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Do you mean hardgainer as in not chemically enhanced?
[/quote]
Since when does “hardgainer” mean “not chemically enhanced”?
People on this site use hardgainer as if everyone here has significant trouble making any gains in muscle at all. The truth is there are about as many true “hardgainers” as there are Max Charles’ who can eat whenever they please and weigh 300lbs because of it.
Everyone else falls in the middle.
If all of these people are “hardgainers” why do they also feel they are training so hard that they need to “deload” on a regular basis?
Have you seen the pics of most of these people? If they were training as hard as they say they are, they would fucking look like it. No one lifts that hard for years on end pushing their limits constantly and still looks like they just started lifting last week.
We have people here SCHEDULING entire weeks off as if they just competed in the Olympics. Yet these are the same people who apparently can’t even build arms bigger than 15".
I have a real hard time believing most of these people are training so hard when their progress is this poor, so why the fuck do they need “deloading” sessions scheduled in a training routine? Most of the people would still qualify as NEWBIES even if they’ve been lifting for years.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
a lot of guys on this site gain muscle hard through intense training, good nutrition, and applying all and any reasonable training methods to make as much progress as possible.
[/quote]
Really? I know of maybe 50-100 of these people on here, and that’s including the strength-sports and female forums.
The rest are either confused from reading 500 articles from people with mostly different opinions… Or simply don’t want to gain more than 10-20 lbs of muscle while losing as much fat as they can.
Everyone and their mother used to complain on here how big guys are really weak and all that bs and how they wouldn’t want to be big and weak at the same time… When I (or others) tell them how one actually gets big, I often hear “but I want to progress in volume/by reducing rest-periods/by doing supersets because Author soandso said that’s possible, WAAAAAAAAAAH!”.
Ironic?
Applying all and any reasonable training methods, huh… Weird, most of the time I see someone here post their oh-so reasonable training methods, all I can think is: “You’re going to end up with tendonitis in your elbows and knees as well as arthritis and a torn supraspinatus in your shoulders within a few years, no matter how much you deload. Oh, and chances are you’ll never get big/strong.”
But what do I know…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Do you mean hardgainer as in not chemically enhanced?
Since when does “hardgainer” mean “not chemically enhanced”?
People on this site use hardgainer as if everyone here has significant trouble making any gains in muscle at all. The truth is there are about as many true “hardgainers” as there are Max Charles’ who can eat whenever they please and weigh 300lbs because of it.
Everyone else falls in the middle.
If all of these people are “hardgainers” why do they also feel they are training so hard that they need to “deload” on a regular basis?
Have you seen the pics of most of these people? If they were training as hard as they say they are, they would fucking look like it. No one lifts that hard for years on end pushing their limits constantly and still looks like they just started lifting last week.
We have people here SCHEDULING entire weeks off as if they just competed in the Olympics. Yet these are the same people who apparently can’t even build arms bigger than 15".
I have a real hard time believing most of these people are training so hard when their progress is this poor, so why the fuck do they need “deloading” sessions scheduled in a training routine? Most of the people would still qualify as NEWBIES even if they’ve been lifting for years.[/quote]
I agree with most of what you have stated. And a newbe does not need to deload. The entire reason newbe’s make so much progress is because their systems are fresh. So deloading as a newbe is just slacking off in my opinion.
However, for someone who has been training hard for years I believe there is value in planned deloading. It’s is the same concept as periodization, cycling, light/heavy days, detraining, etc.
Many, many systems use the idea of a planned period where the intensity is less. So I think it is a good idea for seasoned lifters to cycle intensity, but not newbe’s.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Do you mean hardgainer as in not chemically enhanced?
Since when does “hardgainer” mean “not chemically enhanced”?
People on this site use hardgainer as if everyone here has significant trouble making any gains in muscle at all. The truth is there are about as many true “hardgainers” as there are Max Charles’ who can eat whenever they please and weigh 300lbs because of it.
Everyone else falls in the middle.
If all of these people are “hardgainers” why do they also feel they are training so hard that they need to “deload” on a regular basis?
Have you seen the pics of most of these people? If they were training as hard as they say they are, they would fucking look like it. No one lifts that hard for years on end pushing their limits constantly and still looks like they just started lifting last week.
We have people here SCHEDULING entire weeks off as if they just competed in the Olympics. Yet these are the same people who apparently can’t even build arms bigger than 15".
I have a real hard time believing most of these people are training so hard when their progress is this poor, so why the fuck do they need “deloading” sessions scheduled in a training routine? Most of the people would still qualify as NEWBIES even if they’ve been lifting for years.
I agree with most of what you have stated. And a newbe does not need to deload. The entire reason newbe’s make so much progress is because their systems are fresh. So deloading as a newbe is just slacking off in my opinion.
However, for someone who has been training hard for years I believe there is value in planned deloading. It’s is the same concept as periodization, cycling, light/heavy days, detraining, etc.
Many, many systems use the idea of a planned period where the intensity is less. So I think it is a good idea for seasoned lifters to cycle intensity, but not newbe’s.
[/quote]
A true “seasoned lifter” will know how to listen to his own body. A true seasoned lifter won’t need someone to tell him to back off for a couple of days. They won’t need to schedule anything.
I took yesterday off. I had no plans to take yesterday off until I noticed my biceps, triceps and knees were still sore. That basically cuts out back, biceps, chest, shoulder and leg training as a result.
No one had to tell me that. No one SHOULD have to tell me that and it did NOT require a “planned deloading session”.