tbt works for some, and splits work for some, as long as your progressing with weights it will work…
i also think your body type might have something to do with it, some people can cover most (note i didn’t say all) of the bases with just compounds. think i read that in Thib’s training for new people article.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
if it was horrible or didn’t help with muscle gains, it would have died years ago on T-Nation.
Got a good chuckle out of this, no offense ;)[/quote]
if I came off as “T-Nation forums” I apologize, I realize some people don’t let things die even if it’s been disproven over and over again. I meant “T-Nation articles,” written by guys who know what they’re talking about.
if I missed what made you chuckle, let me know. it’s exam week here, and I’m a bit out of it if it doesn’t involve logarithms or the middle ages. 
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:
RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.
I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…
[/quote]
I have no idea. But, there are many ways to build muscle and ramping up the load is only one of them. And I do know that any and all methods will lead to a plateau if not changed, deloaded, or modified in some manner. So chances are that RR, Arnold, Franco, etc all used ramping, high volume sets, drop sets, etc. I’m sure they used many different techniques to get where they are now.
Seems strange that you and a few others think that ramping is the only way to gain muscle. There are many ways and the fact is that the longer you train the more you will need to try other methods to continue to grow.
[quote]ayork90 wrote:
i also think your body type might have something to do with it, some people can cover most (note i didn’t say all) of the bases with just compounds. think i read that in Thib’s training for new people article. [/quote]
I don’t know of any single high level BB’er who only ever did compounds. I suppose it’s possible that there could be a few mutants who could get to that point on only compounds, but I’ve never seen, met, or heard of any.
[quote]Xander89 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Xander89 wrote:
if it was horrible or didn’t help with muscle gains, it would have died years ago on T-Nation.
Got a good chuckle out of this, no offense 
if I came off as “T-Nation forums” I apologize, I realize some people don’t let things die even if it’s been disproven over and over again. I meant “T-Nation articles,” written by guys who know what they’re talking about.
if I missed what made you chuckle, let me know. it’s exam week here, and I’m a bit out of it if it doesn’t involve logarithms or the middle ages. :P[/quote]
Don’t mean to speak for Carnage, but my interpretation of what he wrote and your above interpretation of what he wrote were pretty much completely opposite.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:
RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.
I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…
I have no idea. But, there are many ways to build muscle and ramping up the load is only one of them. And I do know that any and all methods will lead to a plateau if not changed, deloaded, or modified in some manner. So chances are that RR, Arnold, Franco, etc all used ramping, high volume sets, drop sets, etc. I’m sure they used many different techniques to get where they are now.
Seems strange that you and a few others think that ramping is the only way to gain muscle. There are many ways and the fact is that the longer you train the more you will need to try other methods to continue to grow.
[/quote]
Only? No.
Most time tested, proven effective, fastest rate of progress, common among the biggest most muscular people? Yes.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ayork90 wrote:
i also think your body type might have something to do with it, some people can cover most (note i didn’t say all) of the bases with just compounds. think i read that in Thib’s training for new people article.
I don’t know of any single high level BB’er who only ever did compounds. I suppose it’s possible that there could be a few mutants who could get to that point on only compounds, but I’ve never seen, met, or heard of any. [/quote]
I completely agree, however just to point out many of the programs written here are not for high level bodybuilders.
"If you’re a long-limbed person, you’ll need more direct limb work to grow maximally while a “stubby” guy will often get big all over (limbs included) from doing only the basic lifts. Longer limbed guys also generally need more unilateral work than their shorter limb counterparts.
So while a “back to the basics” program of only squat, bench, deadlifts and rowing might be fine for Pugsley, it might not work not so well for Lurch." Training for Newbies - Part 2
However thats in the training for newbies article, doesn’t necessarily apply to pros, hence the title. Just showing where I read that.
[quote]ayork90 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ayork90 wrote:
i also think your body type might have something to do with it, some people can cover most (note i didn’t say all) of the bases with just compounds. think i read that in Thib’s training for new people article.
I don’t know of any single high level BB’er who only ever did compounds. I suppose it’s possible that there could be a few mutants who could get to that point on only compounds, but I’ve never seen, met, or heard of any.
I completely agree, however just to point out many of the programs written here are not for high level bodybuilders.
"If you’re a long-limbed person, you’ll need more direct limb work to grow maximally while a “stubby” guy will often get big all over (limbs included) from doing only the basic lifts. Longer limbed guys also generally need more unilateral work than their shorter limb counterparts.
So while a “back to the basics” program of only squat, bench, deadlifts and rowing might be fine for Pugsley, it might not work not so well for Lurch."
However thats in the training for newbies article, doesn’t necessarily apply to pros, hence the title. Just showing where I read that. [/quote]
Ok, but even a beginner likely will need at least some isolation/direct arm work if they want their arms to grow optimally. A shorter limbed person will likely also still need direct limb work to grow maximally, though their arms will appear thicker (simply due to their genetics/limb length) than the longer limbed person.
You’re also right, many articles here are not written for high level bodybuilders, but this is the “Bodybuilding” section, so generally topics in this section are about building a BB’er’s physique (at least they should be), hence my mention that no accomplished BB’ers completely avoid isolation exercises.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:
RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.
I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…
I have no idea. But, there are many ways to build muscle and ramping up the load is only one of them. And I do know that any and all methods will lead to a plateau if not changed, deloaded, or modified in some manner. So chances are that RR, Arnold, Franco, etc all used ramping, high volume sets, drop sets, etc. I’m sure they used many different techniques to get where they are now.
Seems strange that you and a few others think that ramping is the only way to gain muscle. There are many ways and the fact is that the longer you train the more you will need to try other methods to continue to grow.
Only? No.
Most time tested, proven effective, fastest rate of progress, common among the biggest most muscular people? Yes.[/quote]
And not one of them used it exclusively to get big.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ayork90 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ayork90 wrote:
i also think your body type might have something to do with it, some people can cover most (note i didn’t say all) of the bases with just compounds. think i read that in Thib’s training for new people article.
I don’t know of any single high level BB’er who only ever did compounds. I suppose it’s possible that there could be a few mutants who could get to that point on only compounds, but I’ve never seen, met, or heard of any.
I completely agree, however just to point out many of the programs written here are not for high level bodybuilders.
"If you’re a long-limbed person, you’ll need more direct limb work to grow maximally while a “stubby” guy will often get big all over (limbs included) from doing only the basic lifts. Longer limbed guys also generally need more unilateral work than their shorter limb counterparts.
So while a “back to the basics” program of only squat, bench, deadlifts and rowing might be fine for Pugsley, it might not work not so well for Lurch."
However thats in the training for newbies article, doesn’t necessarily apply to pros, hence the title. Just showing where I read that.
Ok, but even a beginner likely will need at least some isolation/direct arm work if they want their arms to grow optimally. A shorter limbed person will likely also still need direct limb work to grow maximally, though their arms will appear thicker (simply due to their genetics/limb length) than the longer limbed person.
You’re also right, many articles here are not written for high level bodybuilders, but this is the “Bodybuilding” section, so generally topics in this section are about building a BB’er’s physique (at least they should be), hence my mention that no accomplished BB’ers completely avoid isolation exercises.[/quote]
True. It is a must for a beginner to use isolation work because it increase the mind-muscle connection much better than compound lifts. And from a bodybuilding perspective, it is vital that your neural control of individual muscle groups be very acute to effectively build a symmetrical physique.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:
RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.
I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…
I have no idea. But, there are many ways to build muscle and ramping up the load is only one of them. And I do know that any and all methods will lead to a plateau if not changed, deloaded, or modified in some manner. So chances are that RR, Arnold, Franco, etc all used ramping, high volume sets, drop sets, etc. I’m sure they used many different techniques to get where they are now.
Seems strange that you and a few others think that ramping is the only way to gain muscle. There are many ways and the fact is that the longer you train the more you will need to try other methods to continue to grow.
Only? No.
Most time tested, proven effective, fastest rate of progress, common among the biggest most muscular people? Yes.
And not one of them used it exclusively to get big.
[/quote]
To the best of my knowledge Prof. X did. I believe that Coleman and Levrone did as well (though I’m less sure about Coleman and Levrone). Branch Warren also stated in his BFTO 2005 vid that he learned how to properly weight train from Ronnie’s workout partner.
Notice how he (and Johnnie Jackson) ramps up to a top weight, just like Coleman does in his vids.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Btw lorisco,this is taken from Chris C’s interview with Robbie Robinson:
RR:
I’ve never had an injury, honestly.
I believe in doing 20 reps [as a warm-up] for whichever body part we’re going to do, before we start. That plays a big role in creating a better supply of blood to the muscle, and then I gradually increase up to my max weight.
Why would he lie about it now? If he still does it that way as a 62 year old and off the drugs…
I have no idea. But, there are many ways to build muscle and ramping up the load is only one of them. And I do know that any and all methods will lead to a plateau if not changed, deloaded, or modified in some manner. So chances are that RR, Arnold, Franco, etc all used ramping, high volume sets, drop sets, etc. I’m sure they used many different techniques to get where they are now.
Seems strange that you and a few others think that ramping is the only way to gain muscle. There are many ways and the fact is that the longer you train the more you will need to try other methods to continue to grow.
Only? No.
Most time tested, proven effective, fastest rate of progress, common among the biggest most muscular people? Yes.
And not one of them used it exclusively to get big.
To the best of my knowledge Prof. X did. I believe that Coleman and Levrone did as well (though I’m less sure about Coleman and Levrone). Branch Warren also stated in his BFTO 2005 vid that he learned how to properly weight train from Ronnie’s workout partner.
Notice how he (and Johnnie Jackson) ramps up to a top weight, just like Coleman does in his vids.
Not just those guys either. Pretty much every pro, NPC guy etc of the modern era minus a very few exceptions…
Hell, it was normal to train like that during Arnold’s time, too…
They just did more sets and smaller jumps in weight…
Lorisco… Why is it so important to you that one must alternate between this and that, hi and low and do every routine under the sun?
Look at any of the successful bodybuilders (powerlifters would be a different story, but max strength is a wholly different game)… Just about every one of them use(d) the same training style… With different splits, but it was more or less the same thing.
They did/do not alternate 10 different methods… They concentrate on how to get to their goal the fastest and have at it. Occasional deload or time off when needed, then it’s back to training full force…
They make some adjustments to their routine along the way…
But they don’t say “oh shit, I’ve been doing this for so long now and damn, it works but I better just scrap my whole routine and switch to super-high volume/super-low-volume/HIT/HST/insertnamehere for a while… Just… Because”.
If curling the 90’s or 100’s for 6-8 reps per arm for one set is going to give me huge biceps… What should I do if I wanted to get there the fastest?
or
2) Cycle several methods which are complete opposites of each other, some of which increase total amount of work done big time but don’t actually improve my strength much at all and cost me lots of time?
Im just sitting here wondering when this thread will die.
The big guys on here dont have to explain anything. If others dont want to accept what works best, then let them do what they want.
I workout at 4:30 in the morning, and I can only do it for an hour because I have to be out of the doors by 7:40. That gives me one hour to “wake up”, one hour to workout and one hour to get ready. If I waked up any earlier, well, that would be just torture. Afterall, some sleep IS necessary. I found that the best method to save time and increase strength is to do progressively heavier warmup sets up until my last all out set to failure.
By the way, did I say this thread should die?
[quote]forbes wrote:
…I workout at 4:30 in the morning, and I can only do it for an hour because I have to be out of the doors by 7:40. That gives me one hour to “wake up”, one hour to workout and one hour to get ready. If I waked up any earlier…[/quote]
woke* up.
and I agree, I think the point of the thread was made and is done.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco… Why is it so important to you that one must alternate between this and that, hi and low and do every routine under the sun?
Look at any of the successful bodybuilders (powerlifters would be a different story, but max strength is a wholly different game)… Just about every one of them use(d) the same training style… With different splits, but it was more or less the same thing.
They did/do not alternate 10 different methods… They concentrate on how to get to their goal the fastest and have at it. Occasional deload or time off when needed, then it’s back to training full force…
They make some adjustments to their routine along the way…
But they don’t say “oh shit, I’ve been doing this for so long now and damn, it works but I better just scrap my whole routine and switch to super-high volume/super-low-volume/HIT/HST/insertnamehere for a while… Just… Because”.
If curling the 90’s or 100’s for 6-8 reps per arm for one set is going to give me huge biceps… What should I do if I wanted to get there the fastest?
or
2) Cycle several methods which are complete opposites of each other, some of which increase total amount of work done big time but don’t actually improve my strength much at all and cost me lots of time?
[/quote]
Dude, just let it go. I’m not saying that ramping doesn’t work or is bad. I use it myself.
All I’m saying is that most everything works until it stops working. Then you deload, change rep ranges, etc. At some point the stimulus needs to change or you will not continue to grow. It’s that simple.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco… Why is it so important to you that one must alternate between this and that, hi and low and do every routine under the sun?
Look at any of the successful bodybuilders (powerlifters would be a different story, but max strength is a wholly different game)… Just about every one of them use(d) the same training style… With different splits, but it was more or less the same thing.
They did/do not alternate 10 different methods… They concentrate on how to get to their goal the fastest and have at it. Occasional deload or time off when needed, then it’s back to training full force…
They make some adjustments to their routine along the way…
But they don’t say "oh shit, I’ve been doing this for so long now and damn, it works but I better just scrap my whole routine and switch to super-high volume/super-low-volume/HIT/HST/insertnamehere for a while… “Just… Because”.
If curling the 90’s or 100’s for 6-8 reps per arm for one set is going to give me huge biceps… What should I do if I wanted to get there the fastest?
or
2) Cycle several methods which are complete opposites of each other, some of which increase total amount of work done big time but don’t actually improve my strength much at all and cost me lots of time?
Dude, just let it go. I’m not saying that ramping doesn’t work or is bad. I use it myself.
All I’m saying is that most everything works until it stops working. Then you deload, change rep ranges, etc. At some point the stimulus needs to change or you will not continue to grow. It’s that simple.
[/quote]
Why would ramping up the weight stop working? I have been “pyramiding” up in weight to my final set since I first read about it in a Flex magazine in high school.
It hasn’t stopped working and the reasons why it has a greater advantage for strength and size gains should be well known at this point. I would imagine those who don’t do this will experience far more injuries over the course of years.
Xander,
Here is a post I made in response to someone else’s question about full body. It may be of use to you:
You could read this.
http://www.davedraper.com/...c.php?tid/1486/
I think if you focus on adding weight and/or reps to your work set each time you will progress. Don’t feel like you have to do it M, W, F either. That burned me out. If you work hard enough, it’s okay to take 2 complete days off.
Here is another good program that will take you a couple of months but with surplus calories you will definitely grow:
http://www.weightrainer.net/.../beginners.html
Another solid option is to do the following:
A
Squat
Bench
Row
BB curl
B
Stiff leg dead
Military press
(Weighted) dips
(Weighted) chins
Alternate A and B workouts. Do 2-3 progressively heavier warm up sets and one ALL OUT work set in the 6-10 rep range (4-6 for deads, but that’s just pesonal). Always get either more weight or more reps (or both). Log your progress on the work set only.
So, on squat, if you get 185x10 for your workset, next time you do it (4-6 days later) add some weight. If you only get 6 reps next time at 195, you will use that weight again until you get 9 or 10 reps…but don’t stop at 10 if you can get more.
Again, don’t be afraid to take 2 full days off between lifting sessions. Throw in some calves/abs at your leisure if you want.
The takeaway is that if you focus on compounds, throw in some isos and get stronger on these lifts (w/ extra quality calories and plenty of rest) you will reach your maximum muscular bodyweight. Don’t be afraid to engage in some brisk morning walking/jogging before breakfast to minimize fat gains (if that’s a concern).
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Lorisco… Why is it so important to you that one must alternate between this and that, hi and low and do every routine under the sun?
Look at any of the successful bodybuilders (powerlifters would be a different story, but max strength is a wholly different game)… Just about every one of them use(d) the same training style… With different splits, but it was more or less the same thing.
They did/do not alternate 10 different methods… They concentrate on how to get to their goal the fastest and have at it. Occasional deload or time off when needed, then it’s back to training full force…
They make some adjustments to their routine along the way…
But they don’t say "oh shit, I’ve been doing this for so long now and damn, it works but I better just scrap my whole routine and switch to super-high volume/super-low-volume/HIT/HST/insertnamehere for a while… “Just… Because”.
If curling the 90’s or 100’s for 6-8 reps per arm for one set is going to give me huge biceps… What should I do if I wanted to get there the fastest?
or
2) Cycle several methods which are complete opposites of each other, some of which increase total amount of work done big time but don’t actually improve my strength much at all and cost me lots of time?
Dude, just let it go. I’m not saying that ramping doesn’t work or is bad. I use it myself.
All I’m saying is that most everything works until it stops working. Then you deload, change rep ranges, etc. At some point the stimulus needs to change or you will not continue to grow. It’s that simple.
Why would ramping up the weight stop working? I have been “pyramiding” up in weight to my final set since I first read about it in a Flex magazine in high school.
It hasn’t stopped working and the reasons why it has a greater advantage for strength and size gains should be well known at this point. I would imagine those who don’t do this will experience far more injuries over the course of years.
[/quote]
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
If you have been doing the same thing since high school and never reached a plateau and never had to deload you are a genetic anomaly. The problem is that the rest of us do not have neurological systems that can take that kind of intensity year after year and continue to grow. But if you do, then count yourself lucky.
[/quote]
Doing the same thing implies PYRAMIDING. If I literally did the same thing with regards to sets, reps and exercises, there is no doubt I would have stagnated. Increasing the reps, changing volume and even grouping muscles together differently is all of the “shocking” most people need with regards to muscle growth. Why would “deloading” be a requirement for progress?
Further, this is the bodybuilding forum. I would assume we are not catering everything for those with the weakest genetic potential here. This site has enough of that as it is with everyone and their momma thinking they are “hardgainers”.