Super Squats Program with Deadlifts?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hi for anyone who hasn’t heard of the super squats program it’s basically an old school strength program written up by Randall J. Strossen, I’ve seen it mentioned in a few articles on this site and I’m sure it must have been mentioned in threads before.

If you aren’t familiar with the program, it goes like this:

Pick a weight you can just squat 10 times - and squat it 20 times, you can have all the rest you want, and are supposed to breathe properly between reps, but you cannot rack the bar until you have finished the 20 reps.

This one set of 20 covers the first half of the program, and is then followed by a set of 20 light pullovers. This is the most well-known template but I believe people also add other compound lifts like Romanian Deadlifts and Barbell rows.

This is repeated 3 times per week, and the squatting weight goes up 5lbs per workout. There are some seriously impressive, although possibly slightly exaggerated success stories on this routine, look it up and you will find people often add a solid few pounds of muscle within a couple of months and a couple of inches on the legs at least etc.

I’ve really wanted to try this routine for sometime, but my problem is that I do not have access to a squat rack, my gym doesn’t have one and I can’t afford one for the home, so my question is could this routine be done with deadlifts replacing the squats? I realize that slipping form could potentially be quite dangerous, but providing there was someone checking the form kept in check, could this be a good way to make strength gains on the lift etc and bulk up a bit? My understanding was that this routine was effective because squats are such a full-body exercise, deadlifts must be right up there with squats in terms of full-body exercises.

Cheers, any advice/opinions appreciated - I would be really interested to know if anyone else has ever tried this routine, either the traditional with squats or a version with deadlifts. If this idea seems stupid and dangerous, just tell me, but if so could you suggest what could be a more appropriate alternative to squats, or recommend any other old school strength routines?

2

There have been people that have done a breathing deadlift routine before in a similar fashion. Paul Kelso may have written about it, or Stuart McRobert or Strossen. The key is to rest at the top of the dead instead of the bottom. Straps would be very crucial to your success.

In terms of a good way to make strength gains on a lift, I did not experience much in terms of strength gains following 20 rep squats, and I have seen a similar sentiment as well. It is effective for getting bigger though.

I would consider just building some squat stands honestly. Strossen talks about people doing stuff like that in the book a whole bunch. Google search “DIY squat stands cement bucket” and you’ll see some results (can’t direct link here).

3

Cheers for the info, yeah I do recall seeing breathing deadlifts mentioned somewhere a while back which is why I was interested to see if anyone had tried it. How did you find the routine and how long would you recommend following it for? I’m very tempted to get the book would you say it is worth ordering one or is all the essential info available online now?

I’ll definitely look into making my own squat rack, but the problem would simply be the cost of an olympic bar and a reasonable amount of plates - I’ve been looking for used ones in the area for a while but nothing has been turning up, only dumbbells and those 5-6ft spinlock bars. I’ve looked at buying a bar and plates brand new and I could get a Bodymax Olympic bar with 125kg of weights for £239 ($397.55) which seems reasonable, but I don’t really have that to spend. Even if I do find the money though I’m not sure where I could store it this is another problem.

4

simple way - make it part of your warm up
70/80% 5x3 pulled explosively, add weight when you can. I always do some form of deadlift before squatting

5

I probably wouldn’t try doing 20-rep deadlifts until you have more experience with them. 20 reps does wear you down, and form breakdown can be dangerous. Doesn’t mean it will be, but when you’re on those last reps and your goal is to just get the weight up, well, yeah.

It’s ultimately up to you. If you know how to push yourself without hurting yourself, then I’d say you should give it a shot if you really want to try it out.

–

I did a 20-rep squat program for a few months on two occasions. I got a fair amount out of it, and it’s absolutely a great tool for training your willpower. Now, knowing what I know now – mostly diet-wise, but also form-wise – I probably could have gotten more out of it. I put on ~20lbs and stayed comparably lean to when I started. (I was underweight and a beginner, so “these results not typical”)

For me, psychologically, the short burst of hard intense training worked well. A single squat set lasted almost 3 minutes, pullovers, then 5-10 minutes to catch my breath. Then some other work, and come back to do it again in 2 days.

It was a good way to train while I developed a better idea of what my goals were.

6

Cheers for the input guys, its all useful, yeah it seems that the dealift idea would likely work but its more a matter of safety I suppose. Along with the pullovers and maybe a shoulder press and curls/chins. When you followed the plan did you cycle it with another routine, just looking it up again and people have been saying maybe only follow it for a few weeks at a time because the squats can put too much pressure on the lower back etc.?

Is it worth ordering the book?

7

When I first started lifting, I also didn’t have access to a squat rack and focused on the DL. I would do 4 sets of 8-12 with sets of 8 explosive vertical jumps or 9090 stretches in between… touch and go with no straps (gentle touch because it was on concrete).

I had just started out, so obviously I wasn’t going too heavy… I think maybe 200 or so. I began to develop tendonitis in my my forearms from all the demand on my grip, as well as growing more bone right where I gripped the bar. I ended up having to go to PT and do all the lame rehab work and not being able to DL or even hold heavy bags for a long time. So, be careful with your volume here… even 1 x 20 seems like a lot for DLs.

8

It is always worth getting a book in something you are interested in. The worst that is going to happen is that you learn something.

I used the 20 rep breathing squat like the rest of the “Weider principals”. Once or twice a month. Or even every two months. It was a way for me to tell my body I was in charge.

Please realize that I have bad knees. And doing the 20 rep 2-3 week is impossible.

Also, I had only heard of Strossen. Have to look up his work out(s).

Cheers

9

Cheers guys, yeah I’m already starting to go off the idea of the 20 rep challenge, the thing is the whole basis of the workout is that it is basically forcing the body to grow, whilst this is good for size gains, long term I can’t imagine the impacts will do the joints etc. Any good. It does seem that this routine would likely work well with deadlifts, but I don’t think it wouldn’t necessarily do much good long term.

As for the book, I probably will end up ordering it, if I ever get hold of a squat rack or do make my own then I would like to give this old school routine a go for a few weeks.

On a slightly separate but related note has anyone ever read any of Brooks Kubik’s works, Dinosaur Training or Chalk and Sweat? Apparently these are loaded with old school training routines so was just wondering if anyone had tried these out before I invest.

10

20 reps on DL with your 10RM is fucking retarded. End of story.

11

I hardly think that it is ‘retarded’, OK so the squats routine isn’t without drawbacks but it is a solid routine that’s been tried and tested by all sorts of lifters over the years. One point is that a back squat uses lots of different muscles which is one reason why another rep can often be forced, the dealift is a similar exercise in the way that lots of muscles are recruited. I understand that routines like this might not be for you but the squats and milk program has had some serious success stories over the years.

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[quote]Lyle77 wrote:
Cheers for the info, yeah I do recall seeing breathing deadlifts mentioned somewhere a while back which is why I was interested to see if anyone had tried it. How did you find the routine and how long would you recommend following it for? I’m very tempted to get the book would you say it is worth ordering one or is all the essential info available online now?

I’ll definitely look into making my own squat rack, but the problem would simply be the cost of an olympic bar and a reasonable amount of plates - I’ve been looking for used ones in the area for a while but nothing has been turning up, only dumbbells and those 5-6ft spinlock bars. I’ve looked at buying a bar and plates brand new and I could get a Bodymax Olympic bar with 125kg of weights for Ã?£239 ($397.55) which seems reasonable, but I don’t really have that to spend. Even if I do find the money though I’m not sure where I could store it this is another problem.[/quote]

I have never seen anyone successfully run the program without having read the book. I have seen a lot of people fail that way. Consequently, I have also never seen someone who had read the book fail the routine. I would personally advocate reading it before starting.

I ran the program for 6 weeks, per the book’s recommendation. I found the routine through Stuart McRobert and Pavel Tsastouline, who spoke very highly of it. I think every person, regardless of goals, should do this program at least once. Aside from size, it will build mental fortitude and work ethic that will be of a great asset for years to come.

For storage, the convienient thing about stands is that you can put them in a closet when not in use. Same with the bar and plates. Or you could even just bring them to the gym.

13

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

I have never seen anyone successfully run the program without having read the book. I have seen a lot of people fail that way. Consequently, I have also never seen someone who had read the book fail the routine. I would personally advocate reading it before starting.

I ran the program for 6 weeks, per the book’s recommendation. I found the routine through Stuart McRobert and Pavel Tsastouline, who spoke very highly of it. I think every person, regardless of goals, should do this program at least once. Aside from size, it will build mental fortitude and work ethic that will be of a great asset for years to come.

For storage, the convienient thing about stands is that you can put them in a closet when not in use. Same with the bar and plates. Or you could even just bring them to the gym.[/quote]

Yeah I have to say those stands do look an excellent idea, I may have to look into making some as a bit of a DIY project, I have some time off school in a couple of weeks so might have a go then. The only real problem would be getting hold of the bar and plates as I mentioned earlier, I suppose I could take it to the gym but I might get just a few strange looks, the gym I go to isn’t a proper weightlifting place it’s sort of a fitness suite full of lifters who only smith machines squat or leg press.

As for the routine, I think I will definitely give it a go if I ever do make the rack, like you said it seems like the sort of plan that everyone has to try once. What sort of gains did you see in terms of size then?

14

Lunges. Seriously get to where you can do 20 walking lunges per leg with 225 and your legs will def show for it. In the mean time start 135 or whatever level your at. Power Clean and Press into position. I know its not your question specifically but seriously

Walking Lunges: 3-5 sets of 10-20 per leg
Deadlifts: 3 sets of 5
Hyper Extentions: 3 sets of 10-20

Would be a pretty decent way for a begginer looking for some good leg size. Add in Leg Press or Leg Extensions if you dont have a Press.if you just feel some more volume needed.

15

Another book worth considering is The Complete Keys to Progress by John McCallum.

In it he has an earlier iteration of 20-rep squats, before Super Squats came out. He has you training a lot with high-rep squats; one of the later routines actually involves 2 sets of 20 rep squats.

There are plenty of other “old school” programs in that book. Even if you never do one of his routines, it’s a good read. Just a good general philosophy of training involving hard work, heavy weights, and copious amounts of food, and told in an entertaining way.

16

Thanks Reed, yeah I have to say walking Lunges are one of the best leg exercises available to me considering that there is no squat rack, I have often included them in my routines. 2O Lunges on each leg with 225 would be insane! I struggle to imagine anyone not having huge and well-developed legs if they could progress to this stage, it’s actually a very interesting idea. I probably will look into adding the routine you suggested into my routine for now, the best leg workout I’ve ever had at my gym with no squat rack was:

  • Goblet Squats
  • Stiff-Legged Deadlift
  • Walking Lunges
  • Step-ups
17

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Another book worth considering is The Complete Keys to Progress by John McCallum.

In it he has an earlier iteration of 20-rep squats, before Super Squats came out. He has you training a lot with high-rep squats; one of the later routines actually involves 2 sets of 20 rep squats.

There are plenty of other “old school” programs in that book. Even if you never do one of his routines, it’s a good read. Just a good general philosophy of training involving hard work, heavy weights, and copious amounts of food, and told in an entertaining way.[/quote]

Cheers LoRez, I may have to look into ordering a copy. I do already have a small library of the ‘old school’ strength books, so far including ‘Super Strength’ and ‘The Truth About Weightlifting’ by Alan Calvert, ‘The Way to Live’ by Georg Hackenschmidt, ‘The Key to Might and Muscle’ by George F. Jowett and ‘The Development of Physical Power’ and ‘The Text Book of Weightlifting’ both by Arthur Saxon.

All of these books have been interesting reads and I’ve learned something from all of them, but what I would say is that they are all good for outlines of exercises but they don’t really contain any routines as such.

18

[quote]Lyle77 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

I have never seen anyone successfully run the program without having read the book. I have seen a lot of people fail that way. Consequently, I have also never seen someone who had read the book fail the routine. I would personally advocate reading it before starting.

I ran the program for 6 weeks, per the book’s recommendation. I found the routine through Stuart McRobert and Pavel Tsastouline, who spoke very highly of it. I think every person, regardless of goals, should do this program at least once. Aside from size, it will build mental fortitude and work ethic that will be of a great asset for years to come.

For storage, the convienient thing about stands is that you can put them in a closet when not in use. Same with the bar and plates. Or you could even just bring them to the gym.[/quote]

Yeah I have to say those stands do look an excellent idea, I may have to look into making some as a bit of a DIY project, I have some time off school in a couple of weeks so might have a go then. The only real problem would be getting hold of the bar and plates as I mentioned earlier, I suppose I could take it to the gym but I might get just a few strange looks, the gym I go to isn’t a proper weightlifting place it’s sort of a fitness suite full of lifters who only smith machines squat or leg press.

As for the routine, I think I will definitely give it a go if I ever do make the rack, like you said it seems like the sort of plan that everyone has to try once. What sort of gains did you see in terms of size then?
[/quote]

I ran the program when I was in college, using a meal plan and drinking a gallon of milk a day. I put on 12lbs in 6 weeks. I imagine a good amount of it was fat, but I also just plain got bigger in general. I think with a better diet I could have achieved even better results, but it was a great lesson in recovery along with intensity.

19

Sounds decent, yeah I definitely need to put time aside to try this routine in future, but I think I will give the deadlifts a miss, just giving the tried and tested version a go seems the best bet for optimum results. I’ll have to look into the breathing deadlifts though and possibly add them into my routine somehow. 12lbs in 6 weeks seems decent even if a chunk of that was fat, this seems like it could be a good routine to do if I ever need to bulk up quickly though, saying that with a much stricter diet and less milk I’m sure some people must get absolutely shredded on this sort of routine. Cheers for all the info man, very useful

20

[quote]Lyle77 wrote:
Sounds decent, yeah I definitely need to put time aside to try this routine in future, but I think I will give the deadlifts a miss, just giving the tried and tested version a go seems the best bet for optimum results. I’ll have to look into the breathing deadlifts though and possibly add them into my routine somehow. 12lbs in 6 weeks seems decent even if a chunk of that was fat, this seems like it could be a good routine to do if I ever need to bulk up quickly though, saying that with a much stricter diet and less milk I’m sure some people must get absolutely shredded on this sort of routine. Cheers for all the info man, very useful[/quote]

I could not imagine anyone getting shredded while running the routine. You’re not going to lose any fat running this, as the caloric needs in order to keep recovering from training are huge. You can minimize fat gain, but you’re going to need to put on some fat while you run this.