Stronger: Weightlifters or PLs

Training Powerlifting
61

splicer, what ur reffering to is power(explosive strength). the topic creator asked about max strength. olympic lifters are more powerful(explosive). powerlifters have more max strength(they are stronger, the topic creator did not ask about who is more powerful, he asked about who is STRONGER.

olympic lifters are more powerful, powerlifters(thats a stupid name for them anyways, they should be called weightlifters and olympic lifters should be called powerlifters lol)are STRONGER(have more max strength.

this isn’t my opinion, i don’t favor powerlifters over weightlifters, im just stating facts.

62

[quote]splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?[/quote]

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.

What’s being judged is the weight being moved under specific criteria which is specified in their rules. If you don’t like their rules, lift in another organization, if you don’t like the exercises they compete with, choose another sport, or try to start your own.

The rest of your post was almost too ridiculous to reply to, but I’ll make one other point. It’s retarded to condemn all of powerlifting based on the rules of a few organizations. There are different organizations for people who prefer to compete with different rules.

Benching 600+lbs isn’t a parlor trick, moron. It takes a tremendous amount of strength, and skill working the shirt to get the most out of the shirt. If you don’t want to compete against others who use shirts, go to a RAW meet.

Saying something like “well, he couldn’t have benched it without the shirt” is as ridiculous as saying Lance Armstrong couldn’t have done the Tour De France in as little time without his bike.

The shirt is part of the sport for the specific organizations who choose to allow it.

Are the Olympic lifters cheating with the special shoes they wear?

Could they get as much weight if they were bare foot, or if they had to wear regular sneakers?

It’s part of the sport. Why insult a sport you obviously know very little about?

I guess it’s easier than actually giving the sport a try, and seeing first hand what it’s like, and how supportive and helpful the majority of the people in the sport are.

63

[quote]metallica76660 wrote:

thats not to say that a small powerlifter is weaker than the strongest olympic lifter, but pound for pound, on average powerlifters have better max strength(are stronger). Argument settled. Those are the facts my friends, not my opinion.[/quote]

Ignorance is bliss my friend, you simply just do not know what you are talking about, and your “facts” are anything but.

This is a clip of George Asanidze, who weights under 185lbs. He FRONT SQUATS this weight, over 450 lbs, from where his ass is about 2 inches off the floor WITHOUT double ply squat suits and briefs and knee wraps and wrist wraps and an 8" belt, let alone lift it over his head! As far as max strength i dont think there are many under 185lbs powerlifters that can front squat that and get as low as he does without the use of ANY equipment. In fact, i dont think there are any.

If you want to talk about pound for pound lets go to china and watch their 14 yr old girl weightlifters. Once you do that you will know the real facts.

64

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.

What’s being judged is the weight being moved under specific criteria which is specified in their rules.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply that the distance is measured. Implicit in the specific criteria you mention is that the bar get off the chest and back to lock out (or from “parallel” to lock out, or from floor to lock out). This concentric movement is the raison d’etre of the sport. It can effectively be described as moving a mass a certain (purposely shortened) distance against the acceleration due to gravity. If you cannot cover the distance, no lift. How many competitions have you been to where this was a factor in the competition?

Thanks for making this point for me. Powerlifting is incredibly inconsistent and that makes it hard to take it seriously. As you said if one organization won’t accept your squat you can move to another. Does a lifter who uses this strategy get stronger because his total went up?

Actually powerlifting as a whole is cheapened by these practices. When you talk about powerlifters as a group and how “strong” they are one needs to consider the crap standards of a few organizations.

[quote]Benching 600+lbs isn’t a parlor trick, moron. It takes a tremendous amount of strength, and skill working the shirt to get the most out of the shirt. If you don’t want to compete against others who use shirts, go to a RAW meet.

Saying something like “well, he couldn’t have benched it without the shirt” is as ridiculous as saying Lance Armstrong couldn’t have done the Tour De France in as little time without his bike.[/quote]

It is true that the equipment is part of powerlifting. For the most part, the equipment forms a well-designed exoskeleton used to buttress the foibles of the human body.

If Lance Armstrong was a powerlifter he would compete on a Ducati motocycle.

[quote]The shirt is part of the sport for the specific organizations who choose to allow it.

Are the Olympic lifters cheating with the special shoes they wear?

Could they get as much weight if they were bare foot, or if they had to wear regular sneakers?[/quote]

Weightlifting shoes have wood soles so they do not compress. The heels are raised about an inch to facilitate an anterior tilt of the pelvic bone and assist balance in the full squat (something the majority of powerlifters do not experience). If you choose to equate this with wrapping your knees, groin, entire lumbar spine, and chest with leather, kevlar, denim…fine, but I think you know that you are being disingenuous.

The use of excessive equipment and lax criteria undermines powerlifters’ claims to strength. I am not insulting the sport nor am lacking in experience with it. The misnaming/idiot comment was straight up ball-busting, something the powerlifters I know can handle easily.

I agree there are many supportive powerlifting communities.

65

You seem to be under the impression that there is significant horizontal displacement of the bar during a powerlifting style squat with trunk flexion. You haven’t spent much time under a bar.

Have you seen some of the women who lift? Damn straight I have a hard-on.

See above

I am not making any claims about my personal ability.

66

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.
[/quote]

exactly, according to this moron, the taller O-lifter should win even if his total is a kilo or two less than the other guy. idiocy

oh, and by the way splicer, Force DOES NOT equal mass times gravity unless we are talking about a falling object. You just gave the equation for an object’s WEIGHT on the planet earth. You know exactly enough to be dangerous, and nothing more

67

[quote]toughcasey wrote:
hossein is the man indeed, here he is squatting 671 twice

This video proves my point. How many powerlifters can squat 670lbs ass to grass with no belt no knee wraps no double ply squat suits no briefs that easily.

He could of done that weight 10 times. There might be handful of powerlifters that could do this but not many more

68

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.

exactly, according to this moron, the taller O-lifter should win even if his total is a kilo or two less than the other guy. idiocy[/quote]

I will try again. Powerlifters tend to move heavy weights short distances in training and in competitions. In fact, powerlifting technique is all about reducing the distance the bar needs to move while meeting the necessary (and highly variable) criteria.

We have one lift to compare weightlifters and powerlifters with any meaning, the squat, which I think we can all agree is an excellent demonstration of strength.

Weightlifters train the squat deep in order to enhance their recovery from the catch.

If we consider two athletes of the same height and ranking in their respective sports, a PL and a WL, doing max squats. We will see without any ambiguity that the WL moves the bar a greater distance any where from 2-3X depending on the styles compared. If they where lifting the same weight and you had to judge which one would you say was stronger?

Now of course the max weight of the PL might be higher, but how much higher? Can we compare raw squat to raw squat? Does the PL move 2-3X the weight in the raw squat? I doubt it. That is the use of the equation for work. It takes in consideration both variables mass and distance and the constant gravity.

This is sad considering you are calling me a moron. The force produced by a barbell is indeed equal to mg. Of course, I am giving the equation for weight. If you stop to consider why this might be relevant to a discussion about people moving weights it might help.

As I said in my response to SWR-1240, my misnaming of the sport/idiots comment was straight up ball-busting. If you and him want to make this personal by calling me a moron, that is fine. Enjoy you internet bravado.

69

[quote]BIG_DAWS wrote:
toughcasey wrote:
hossein is the man indeed, here he is squatting 671 twice

This video proves my point. How many powerlifters can squat 670lbs ass to grass with no belt no knee wraps no double ply squat suits no briefs that easily.

He could of done that weight 10 times. There might be handful of powerlifters that could do this but not many more[/quote]

I have no reason to front squat. I have no reason to snatch. I have no reason to do an overhead log press. I have every reason to do what will make me excel at my sport. Who gives a shit about how much an O lifter could squat with gear? Who gives a shit about how much a powerlifter can front squat? I see it over and over on this site and powerlifting and o lifting websites. The people who tear the O lifters vs. powerlifters debate, the equipped vs. raw debate, etc are people who are not a part of those sports. These people are busy being athletes and doing things that will make them better, like reading literature relative to their sport. This is why I stopped writing on the forums a long time ago, and only write in my training log and any discussion around that.

I only wrote on here because I was prompted to. I dont like it when people try to turn strength sports into just another part of “working out”. I unfotunately realized that most people on T-Nation, or the internet for that matter, are not athletes who train, but people who work out. I have never participated in a baseball game in my life, so why would I argue with someone about pitching mechanics?

Kudos to those of you who do compete in olympic lifting, strongman, or powerlifting. To those of you who dont, any good athlete in the above mentioned sport would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. Otherwise, who gives a shit. I wont be back on this thread because, well, this topic doesnt really interest me or have any benefit to my training. I’m busy getting stronger.

One thing I have found out, the strongest people out there, powerlifting or olympic lifting, dont give a shit either, and I made the mistake once of asking a jackass question like this to someone I highly respect, I got a lot smarter that day. Good luck to all you guys and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. I want to help people in any way I can with training. Conversations like this have no benefit to anyones training.

70

[quote]splicer wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.

exactly, according to this moron, the taller O-lifter should win even if his total is a kilo or two less than the other guy. idiocy

I will try again. Powerlifters tend to move heavy weights short distances in training and in competitions. In fact, powerlifting technique is all about reducing the distance the bar needs to move while meeting the necessary (and highly variable) criteria.

We have one lift to compare weightlifters and powerlifters with any meaning, the squat, which I think we can all agree is an excellent demonstration of strength.

Weightlifters train the squat deep in order to enhance their recovery from the catch.

If we consider two athletes of the same height and ranking in their respective sports, a PL and a WL, doing max squats. We will see without any ambiguity that the WL moves the bar a greater distance any where from 2-3X depending on the styles compared. If they where lifting the same weight and you had to judge which one would you say was stronger?

Now of course the max weight of the PL might be higher, but how much higher? Can we compare raw squat to raw squat? Does the PL move 2-3X the weight in the raw squat? I doubt it. That is the use of the equation for work. It takes in consideration both variables mass and distance and the constant gravity.
[/quote]
again, I dispute the use of the physics equation of “work” as being interchangable with “strength”

[quote] oh, and by the way splicer, Force DOES NOT equal mass times gravity unless we are talking about a falling object. You just gave the equation for an object’s WEIGHT on the planet earth. You know exactly enough to be dangerous, and nothing more

This is sad considering you are calling me a moron. The force produced by a barbell is indeed equal to mg. Of course, I am giving the equation for weight. If you stop to consider why this might be relevant to a discussion about people moving weights it might help.[/quote]

the acceleration of the bar will only be equal to gravity if the barbell is FALLING tho. If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.

my internet sarcasm detector must be on the fritz today. personal comments withdrawn

71

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Anyway, we’re all brothers in iron, so just give props where props are due. [/quote]

The best sentence of the entire thread.

72

Splicer has so far made this point:

powerlifters lift the weight the shortest possible way inside the rules of their fed. This is his main point and this is why he, pointlessly and without much knowledge about the sport, flames powerlifting…

Does he with this imply that weightlifters in competition try to do things the hardest way possible? :wink: Do you remember the old presses? :wink: Why do they sit so far down in the clean and in the snatch…?

Flawed and childish logic AND flaming. Get a grip.

73

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
splicer wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

I’ve never been to a competition where the distance the bar traveled was measured, and was a factor in the competition.

exactly, according to this moron, the taller O-lifter should win even if his total is a kilo or two less than the other guy. idiocy

I will try again. Powerlifters tend to move heavy weights short distances in training and in competitions. In fact, powerlifting technique is all about reducing the distance the bar needs to move while meeting the necessary (and highly variable) criteria.

We have one lift to compare weightlifters and powerlifters with any meaning, the squat, which I think we can all agree is an excellent demonstration of strength.

Weightlifters train the squat deep in order to enhance their recovery from the catch.

If we consider two athletes of the same height and ranking in their respective sports, a PL and a WL, doing max squats. We will see without any ambiguity that the WL moves the bar a greater distance any where from 2-3X depending on the styles compared. If they where lifting the same weight and you had to judge which one would you say was stronger?

Now of course the max weight of the PL might be higher, but how much higher? Can we compare raw squat to raw squat? Does the PL move 2-3X the weight in the raw squat? I doubt it. That is the use of the equation for work. It takes in consideration both variables mass and distance and the constant gravity.

again, I dispute the use of the physics equation of “work” as being interchangable with “strength”

oh, and by the way splicer, Force DOES NOT equal mass times gravity unless we are talking about a falling object. You just gave the equation for an object’s WEIGHT on the planet earth. You know exactly enough to be dangerous, and nothing more

This is sad considering you are calling me a moron. The force produced by a barbell is indeed equal to mg. Of course, I am giving the equation for weight. If you stop to consider why this might be relevant to a discussion about people moving weights it might help.

the acceleration of the bar will only be equal to gravity if the barbell is FALLING tho. If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.

As I said in my response to SWR-1240, my misnaming of the sport/idiots comment was straight up ball-busting. If you and him want to make this personal by calling me a moron, that is fine. Enjoy you internet bravado.

my internet sarcasm detector must be on the fritz today. personal comments withdrawn[/quote]

By reading your quote of splicer, I noticed he mentioned the name calling (I didn’t see it in his post, because he’s already proven his posts to be a waste of time to read).

As far as the name calling, I called you (splicer) a moron, not only because of your ignorance, but also because you first insulted the whole sport of powerlifting and everyone who competes in it with your comment:

“…they are idiots who incorrectly named their sport.”

Or did you conveniently forget that you said that without instigation?

I guess this is a rhetorical question since I will not be reading your response, but I know you’ll be reading mine.

74

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

again, I dispute the use of the physics equation of “work” as being interchangable with “strength”

[/quote]

What is your definition of strenght?

75

[quote]harbinjc wrote:
BIG_DAWS wrote:
toughcasey wrote:
hossein is the man indeed, here he is squatting 671 twice

This video proves my point. How many powerlifters can squat 670lbs ass to grass with no belt no knee wraps no double ply squat suits no briefs that easily.

He could of done that weight 10 times. There might be handful of powerlifters that could do this but not many more

I have no reason to front squat. I have no reason to snatch. I have no reason to do an overhead log press. I have every reason to do what will make me excel at my sport. Who gives a shit about how much an O lifter could squat with gear? Who gives a shit about how much a powerlifter can front squat? I see it over and over on this site and powerlifting and o lifting websites. The people who tear the O lifters vs. powerlifters debate, the equipped vs. raw debate, etc are people who are not a part of those sports. These people are busy being athletes and doing things that will make them better, like reading literature relative to their sport. This is why I stopped writing on the forums a long time ago, and only write in my training log and any discussion around that.

I only wrote on here because I was prompted to. I dont like it when people try to turn strength sports into just another part of “working out”. I unfotunately realized that most people on T-Nation, or the internet for that matter, are not athletes who train, but people who work out. I have never participated in a baseball game in my life, so why would I argue with someone about pitching mechanics?

Kudos to those of you who do compete in olympic lifting, strongman, or powerlifting. To those of you who dont, any good athlete in the above mentioned sport would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. Otherwise, who gives a shit. I wont be back on this thread because, well, this topic doesnt really interest me or have any benefit to my training. I’m busy getting stronger.

One thing I have found out, the strongest people out there, powerlifting or olympic lifting, dont give a shit either, and I made the mistake once of asking a jackass question like this to someone I highly respect, I got a lot smarter that day. Good luck to all you guys and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. I want to help people in any way I can with training. Conversations like this have no benefit to anyones training.[/quote]

Wow that was really unneccessary. What was the point of even posting this? To prove to all of us how great you are? I started this thread to start an intelligent debate and maybe people could use a thing or two from each other’s training to better their own respective sports.

The fact is that you can take different disciplines from either sport and make yourself a better weightlifter or powerlifter. Take Westside Barbell for example. Where do you think Louie Simmons got the idea for a dynamic day and the conjugated system of training?

I’ll tell you where, books like “Managing the Training of WEIGHTLIFTERS”, by Laputin, “A System of Multi-Year Training in WEIGHTLIFTING”, by A. Medvedyev and “The Training of the Weightlifter”, by R. Roman.

I realize that at the ELITE level, to really be good you have to focus on one sport. But in my own situation I have found that alternating bouts of powerlifting training and weightlifting training has helped out each.

76

O lifters are definitely a lot stronger. The lifts are much more complex, their leg strength and flexibility has to be great to even perform the lifts at higher weights.

Not dissing powerlifting at all, but pound for pound oly lifters are much stronger all around.

77

lol, were not talking about pound for pound(relative strength) were talking about max strength, which powerlifters are stronger (have more max strength). its as simple as that, and we don’t care how far someone moves the bar, max strength is defined as how much one exerts under voluntary efforts, do u see any frickin equation in their, i think not.

its as simple as this, olympic lifters have been training their lifts for a long time, and thier lifts are more complex so they rely more on technique than anything(and explosive strength and some max strength) but powerlifting is not complex lifting, which doesn’t rely a ton on technique(some though) it just relies mostly on the lifter’s max strength in those lifts. nuff’ said.

78

Here is a link about how to use a free-body diagram

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/CLass/newtlaws/u2l2b.html#grav

I can assure you that I am correct about the force of the barbell being mg (I am a scientist and have a solid background in math and physics). The force produced by the barbell is constant when it is in a gravitational field. If the barbell only had a force when it is falling, why is it so hard to pick up?

As for the rest of the debate I will bow out and apologize to those who found my ball-busting about powerlifters being idiots for misnaming their sport difficult to handle. It was meant to add some levity to the discussion. The powerlifters I know are not as sensitive. When I call them out on the power issue, they call me a pussy for only having 1.5X Bwt bench press.

79

[quote]splicer wrote:

oh, and by the way splicer, Force DOES NOT equal mass times gravity unless we are talking about a falling object. You just gave the equation for an object’s WEIGHT on the planet earth. You know exactly enough to be dangerous, and nothing more

the acceleration of the bar will only be equal to gravity if the barbell is FALLING tho. If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.

Here is a link about how to use a free-body diagram

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/CLass/newtlaws/u2l2b.html#grav

I can assure you that I am correct about the force of the barbell being mg (I am a scientist and have a solid background in math and physics). The force produced by the barbell is constant when it is in a gravitational field. If the barbell only had a force when it is falling, why is it so hard to pick up?

As for the rest of the debate I will bow out and apologize to those who found my ball-busting about powerlifters being idiots for misnaming their sport difficult to handle. It was meant to add some levity to the discussion. The powerlifters I know are not as sensitive. When I call them out on the power issue, they call me a pussy for only having 1.5X Bwt bench press.

[/quote]

O-mighty scientist, I’m still waiting for your view on how weightlifters do their lifts the hardest way possible inside their rules… you see, that is in no way how I understand the sport, and I work out with weightlifters and powerlifters each week… :wink:

80

does it not depend on the individual? Thats like asking who is stronger, a bodybuilder or strongman competitor… Obviously if the bodybuilder weighs 220 lbs and the strongman weighs 300 lbs then the chances are the strongman will be stronger, stupid question really!