[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
O lifters are definitely a lot stronger. The lifts are much more complex, their leg strength and flexibility has to be great to even perform the lifts at higher weights.
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Oh yeah… cos being more flexible and doing more complex lifts makes you stronger???
[quote]If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.
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But they both performed an equal amount of work if the distance is equal, ergo the force has had to be equal too. If the force is equal and the mass is equal than the acceleration has had to be equal too. There is difference in the power though.
The beauty of the male ego is this…
regardless of the information provided some are too busy worrying about how to personally attack other posters than actually listen to the arguments and discuss the actual facts. I know that a vast majority of posters on this site are well intentioned intelligent and thoughtful in their content.
Unfortunately it seems to be the same small group of individuals who are involved in toxic debates, name calling, and general divisiveness. As I browse through the threads I definitely see a trend…thoughtful well written intelligent content attacked without regard for facts or intelligent debate.
TC touches on this in his latest Atomic Dog article. I have no issues with debates and attacking the LOGIC of an argument, but don’t make things personal.
The point of a debate is to attempt to sway the other side to your way of thinking. To truly make this forum useful everyone has to realize that they are not ALWAYS right. We all are guilty of faulty reasoning and incorrect assumptions. The best and brightest are willing to have a little humility and admit that maybe their argument was flawed.
We all will be better off if we didn’t take ourselves so seriously and listened and read rather than furiously typed an emotional response to another’s post.
time to get off the soap box…just trying to help
e
That the weightlifting lifts have a higher power output than the powerlifting lifts doesn’t mean that a weightlifter is more powerful than a powerlifter… it means the movement is.
still, "Power output normalised for body mass was assessed through weighted jumping. Jumps were performed at 0, 20 and 40 kg and at 30, 60 and 90 % of their 1RM squat from a 900 knee angle. The results showed that the weightlifters produced the greatest power output at any load (Figure 20).
" http://coachesinfo.com/category/strength_and_conditioning/241/
That can be interpreted in many different ways.
I think olympic lifters are also stronger. I think the distance a weight travels is important, even though it isn’t measured that way.
Some more robust guy who can bench a weight less distance, but can complete the lift by competition standard is not stronger than someone who can move the same weight further, but cannot complete the lift because he has further to go.
[quote]fedorable wrote:
I think olympic lifters are also stronger. I think the distance a weight travels is important, even though it isn’t measured that way.
Some more robust guy who can bench a weight less distance, but can complete the lift by competition standard is not stronger than someone who can move the same weight further, but cannot complete the lift because he has further to go.
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Since when does an Olympic lifter move the same weight as a power lifter? Are they cleaning or snatching as much as powerlifters are deadlifting and squatting?
Come on. The responses are getting ridiculous. They’re different movements. The only argument here is what you consider the definition of the word “strong”.
I still think long distance runners are the strongest because they can continue to work their muscles for a lot longer than any other athlete, and I think muscular endurance is the definition of strong. I’m 100% right, and nobody can tell me different.
[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.
But they both performed an equal amount of work if the distance is equal, ergo the force has had to be equal too. If the force is equal and the mass is equal than the acceleration has had to be equal too. There is difference in the power though.
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“if the distance is equal the force has to be equal” WTF? Force=mass x acceleration where the hell does distance come into the equation
Going back to the first page, I have missed alittle…
Olympic lifters are stronger, plain simple. You can sort through all the scientific literature you like, but at the end of the day, weightlifting is in the olympics for a reason. Take what you want from that.
Also, the guy who asked about my vertical jump, my standing jump pb is 30.5" and my running two foot jump is 38" A fast CNS I have, strength I do not. Hence why my 600lbs+ deadlift means jack when I have not yet front squatted 330lbs…
And my coach is the commonwealth gold medalist Michaela Breeze. Coaching is not a problem.
[quote]Brad Cutler wrote:
Going back to the first page, I have missed alittle…
Olympic lifters are stronger, plain simple. You can sort through all the scientific literature you like, but at the end of the day, weightlifting is in the olympics for a reason. Take what you want from that.
Also, the guy who asked about my vertical jump, my standing jump pb is 30.5" and my running two foot jump is 38" A fast CNS I have, strength I do not. Hence why my 600lbs+ deadlift means jack when I have not yet front squatted 330lbs…
And my coach is the commonwealth gold medalist Michaela Breeze. Coaching is not a problem. [/quote]
I think his point was, if you can deadlift 600 lbs, you have the strength to be cleaning a lot more than 250.
Oh, and saying, ‘well it’s in the olympics, they must be stronger’ has got to be one of the worst arguments of this entire thread
Lets not forget this I think the one who achieves the gold medal is more of an athlete.
Alott of powerlifters can barely do a powerclean, or a snatch for that matter.
To the guy who deads 605 and clean and jerks 242, what is just your raw powerclean with no jerk??? just curious.
olympic lifters are the most powerful, most explosive, most athletic people in the world end of story
[quote]Brad Cutler wrote:
Going back to the first page, I have missed alittle…
Olympic lifters are stronger, plain simple. You can sort through all the scientific literature you like, but at the end of the day, weightlifting is in the olympics for a reason. Take what you want from that.
Also, the guy who asked about my vertical jump, my standing jump pb is 30.5" and my running two foot jump is 38" A fast CNS I have, strength I do not. Hence why my 600lbs+ deadlift means jack when I have not yet front squatted 330lbs…
And my coach is the commonwealth gold medalist Michaela Breeze. Coaching is not a problem. [/quote]
I think you’re all missing something fairly important here.
Look at the numbers… They don’t exactly add up. I don’t for a second doubt the legitamcy of them, BUT I would hazard a guess that your arms are extremely long Brad?
Hence the deadlift WAY out of sync with the front squat and clean.
Also, the reason that weightliftng is in the olympics is cos of the history of it. Powerlifting’s a relatively new sport. And saying “weightlifters are stronger, plain and simple” does nothing to prove or disprove anyones argument on this thread.
You’re just stating you opinion. Mine’s completely different. Hell mine is that the 2 are completely imcomparable. I’ve competed at both, and train in a gym with national champs in both disiciplines.
You never hear either groups bad mouth each other. The only people that seem to care are keyboard warriors.
[quote]Kill’Em All wrote:
Alott of powerlifters can barely do a powerclean, or a snatch for that matter.
[/quote]
And a lot of Olympic lifters can barely do a good powerlifting style bench with good technique to get the most possible weight.
Point is, it doesn’t matter to either of the athletes because powerlifters aren’t training to powerclean or snatch, just as Olympic lifters aren’t training to get the heaviest bench, back squat or deadlift possible.
You Olympic nut-huggers are getting annoying. They’re all athletes performing different exercises and they all have to train very hard to be the best at their sport.
[quote]BIG_DAWS wrote:
to me this question is a no brainer. Olympic lifters, hands down, are stronger than powerlifters. In fact i dont even think its close.
A previous comment mentioned an “olympic squat” vs a “powerlifting squat.” I think what he is referring to is that oly lifters squat ass to grass every single rep.
Powerlifters rarely go any more than a few inches below parallel. Ive seen oly lifters, completely raw, not even a belt, squat over 700 for triples going low as humanly possible. I dont think there are many powerlifters that could do this.
This isnt even a world record lift and there is absolutely no powerlifer in the world that could even come close having over 550lbs over their head. - YouTube
If any powerlifters disagree with me i challenge them to attempt to snatch or clean and jerk. Once they try snatching they will realize how weak they are compared to oly lifters.
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Somehwere out there there’s a photo of Dr. Squat Freddie Hatfield doing a 280 lb. snatch. At the time of the photo he was, as I recall, a heavyweight. Then some years went by and he shifted over to powerlifting, but in the early nineties he decided to enter the U.S. Olympic lifting Masters’ meet in the 45 to 49 age group, I think.
He barely made, as a heavyweight, 80 kilos (176 lbs.) in the snatch.
My weight class at that meet was 75k. My age group was the same as his.
I snatched 82.5 k.
Go figure. It’s got to have someting to do with the CNS and free test and doubtless a whole pisspot full of other things related to aging and training that nobody’s even begun to figure out yet.
I can tell you for an absolute fact that if you’re male, the decline in what are loosely called “strength levels” really begins to slam in at age 60. It may start sooner or it may start later but the statistical point of “no return” for guys is age 60.
The same weight will begin to feel heavier and heavier, and trust me, it will be very disconcerting for those of you who haven’t gone through it.
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
eisenaffe wrote:
If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.
But they both performed an equal amount of work if the distance is equal, ergo the force has had to be equal too. If the force is equal and the mass is equal than the acceleration has had to be equal too. There is difference in the power though.
“if the distance is equal the force has to be equal” WTF? Force=mass x acceleration where the hell does distance come into the equation[/quote]
If the weight was moved 1 m in both cases than the work (W =F x d) is the same and time doesn’t paly a role at the first sight. Since the amount of work is equal W(1)=W(2) than follows F(1) x d =F(2) x d from which follows m x a(1)=m x a(2)… at the first sight. I know it’s not so, so maybe somebody more versed in physics can come up with the equation which debunks this “paradoxon”.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
You never hear either groups bad mouth each other. The only people that seem to care are keyboard warriors.[/quote]
not to try and be a dick, but I’ve heard more then a few o-lifters from FDU talk shit on Powerlifters. And I’m not talking about some of the new kids there, I’m talking about one of the teachers at the school who posts some pretty impressive numbers.
When it comes to all out limit strength I’d give the edge to powerlifters, but only in the power LIFTS.
As a rule, top level Olympic lifters are ridiculously athletic. They have speed and quickness, flexibility and explosive strength that top level powerlifters cannot and will never match. Such is the nature of these sport’s respective training.
Olympic lifting improves and enhances athleticism and trains an athlete’s speed, quickness, body-control, etc. Powerlifting trains an athlete to move heavy loads through very short ranges of motion with the aid of a lot of supportive gear.
This really is not even a discussion. As a sport powerlifting is farily near bowling in my estimation in the amount of athletic ability that’s required. Olympic lifters are simply some of the best athletes on the planet.
I’ve done both. I’ve deadlifted 575 (squatted 650) and clean and jerked 352 in competition. One is much, much, much harder than the other. And more rewarding. And more rare. And more athletic. And a better sport. And more fun. And not aided by gobs of ‘gear’.
Man, a debate that’s been beaten to death many times over. Why is it that such a thread always draws the olympic lifting elitists?
Can an elite powerlifter lift what an elite oly lifter can in the 2 classic lifts? No.
Can an elite powerlifter handle the kind of training and poundages an elite oly lifter can? No.
Can an elite oly lifter lift what an elite powerlifter can in the 3 powerlifts? No.
Can an elite oly lifter handle the kind training and poundages an elite powerlifter can? No.
So Rez can squat 700lbs ass-to-grass with ease. Fine, that’s unearthly strength. But it’s silly to believe that Reza can just put on a squat suit, half his range of motion and bust out 1200 lbs if he feels like it. Chances are it’s going to take quite a long period of specific training.
It’s also silly to wax lyrical over the complexity and technicality of the olympic lifts while talking shit about the powerlifts, to justify the stand that oly lifters are stronger. So what if the powerlifts are executed in a such a way that they allow the most amount of weight to be lifted while remaining barely legal? Guess what, so are the olympic lifts.
Oly lifters catch the bar in a squat to minimise the height to which the bar has to be lifted. Same principle behind the snatch grip. They do their best to bounce out of the bottom position. Perhaps the rules of oly lifting are better thought out than those of powerlifting, but that’s another argument.
Stupid question, really. The answer depends SOLELY on how you define the question.
If you want to define strength by the amount of athleticism, skill and range of motion required in the sport, gymnasts and acrobats will be the strongest men on the planet. Still, I’d pick a 300lb powerlifter over a 150lb gymnast if there’s heavy furniture to be moved around.
Wow- for all the enthusiastic support for weightlifting- most of it on this thread coming from my fellow Yanks, you would think that every other American ironhead was an Olympic-style weightlifter. At least that’s what you would think based on what you read on these internet sites.
I find this interesting because when I have gone to these OL meets as a specatator, they were pretty short on participants considering how few competitive opportunities exist in the for OLing in the US- one or two meets per state per year with 8-15 lifters per meet.
And, while I give props to anybody that that trains hard and takes it to a meet in any sport, the numbers people put up in state OL meets ain’t nothing to sing about. I’ve been to three of these things and have yet to see more than 150 kilos get over somebody’s head.
So, OK folks, how many of you that talk all this ra-ra-ra about weightlifting actually lift? If you lift and don’t compete, please get out there and compete and save a dying sport in this country. The sport needs you to lift more than it needs you to talk about how strong the elite few in the sport are compared to the elite few in another, totally unrelated sport.
[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
eisenaffe wrote:
If someone squats 500 lbs in 2 seconds and someone else squats it in 4 seconds, they have not applied an equal amount of force to the bar, the acceleration of the 2 second squatter was greater.
But they both performed an equal amount of work if the distance is equal, ergo the force has had to be equal too. If the force is equal and the mass is equal than the acceleration has had to be equal too. There is difference in the power though.
“if the distance is equal the force has to be equal” WTF? Force=mass x acceleration where the hell does distance come into the equation
If the weight was moved 1 m in both cases than the work (W =F x d) is the same and time doesn’t paly a role at the first sight. Since the amount of work is equal W(1)=W(2) than follows F(1) x d =F(2) x d from which follows m x a(1)=m x a(2)… at the first sight. I know it’s not so, so maybe somebody more versed in physics can come up with the equation which debunks this “paradoxon”.
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The amount of work is NOT equal. The work isnt equal because the force exerted is NOT equal to one another. The force exerted to lift an object is NOT equal to the weight of the object. It is dependent on the MASS of the object times the ACCELERATION of the object.
If that doesnt make sense, I’ll probably lose you here, but this is worht a shot: the force exerted by a lifter on an object is INDEPENDENT of the mass of that object. I can exert X newtons to lift 135 lbs and X newtons to lift 270 lbs. The ACCELERATION of the 135 lbs however, will be twice as great as the acceleration of the 270 lbs. Make sense?