Stronger: Weightlifters or PLs

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]4est wrote:
Kritikos wrote:
Hanley wrote:
I think the stupidity of this thread will only be surpassed by the amount of flames it will contain.

You got it my friend. OP, since you’re on a roll, please also ignite another American Football vs. Rugby debate, a thread asking whether bodybuilders are athletes or not, a funny-bones vs. twinkies vs. oatmeal pies debate, and finally one that ponders the life question – is Charmin truly the quilted quicker picker-upper?

I just want somebody in Canadia to explain Timbits…[/quote]

They are small donuts shaped as little round spheres. Not much else to them. The nice thing is that you can bring in a 20 pack to the office and everyone can have one or two without having to eat too much.

:slight_smile:

42

I might be going out on a limb with this one, but I’m going to say that weightlifters are stronger at weightlifting than powerlifters, and powerlifters are stronger at the big 3 than weightlifters.

Something about specificity.

43

Of course, weightlifters are more powerful than power-lifters. P=F(d)/t, that is power equals force multiplied by distance divided by time. Now compare a max clean to a max deadlift. The weightlifter moves the bar further and faster than the powerlifter. The difference in distance is greater if you compare a sumo style powerlifter to weightlifter. The weightlifter moves the bar from floor to racked on shoulders in less than a second. How long does a max deadlift take? I will be nice and say 3 seconds. How about mass? Granted a world class power-lifter can deadlift a shitload. However, the mass moved does compensate for the other variables.

Example:

Deadlift

Yuriy Fedorenko 405 kilos!

Clean and Jerk

Leonid Taranenko 242 kilos

Bodyweight of both athletes at time of lift 110 kilos.

Now I will be generous and say the distance the bar is lifted is the same, to the top of thighs for Fedorenko racked on the shoulders in full squat for Taranenko. Furthermore, I will say that floor to shoulders took Taranenko one full second, which is not likely, it must assuredly occured in less than a second. The deadlift for Fedorenko 3 seconds a very, very generous value.

Power output Fedorenko:

P=405(10)(1)/3 =1350 watts

Power output Taranenko:

P=242(10)(1)/1 =2420 watts

where 10 is the acceleration due to gravity and the 1 in the numerator is the distance.

Also consider that Fedorenko put his bar down whereas Taranenko stood up took a deep breath and then lifted his bar over his head! Again producing power output equivalent to his clean.

So weightlifters are more powerful. The physics speaks for itself. As far as athleticism, well power and athleticism are joined at the hip. Which group is stronger? Well strength is really another way of saying how much work can you do, where Work=F(d). I will leave that open to discussion, but my personal opinion is that the power-lifters stripped of their gear and challenged to a series of lifts, for instance overhead press, deadlift with feet on blocks, and max chin-ups (corrected for body weight) would get destroyed by a group of weightlifters.

44

[quote]splicer wrote:
So weightlifters are more powerful. The physics speaks for itself. As far as athleticism, well power and athleticism are joined at the hip. [/quote]

Well, this is just brilliant, really. I almost have to take my hat off to you. You have COMPLETELY changed the terms of the debate to suit your outcome.

The title of this thread wasnt who is more POWERFUL, but who is STRONGER.

No, no it is not. You dont get to make up these definitions as you go along.

One thing I’m surprised hasnt been brought up yet, in a lot of countries, weightlifters are selected from a very young age. So it may not be the specific training they undergo, so much as it is the combination of sound, consistent training with great genetics that makes them strong. As someone said earlier in the thread, Reza would be good at whatever strenth sport he was in.

Heres the common sense solution: a weightlifter who totals 375kg is stronger than a PLer who totals 900lbs. A powerlifter who totals 2100 is stronger than an OLer who totals 170kg.

Now, as far as the top goes, well, theres where it gets a bit more complicated

.
.
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ok, I’ll be honest, bolton vs Reza my money says Bolton’s stronger :slight_smile:

45

[quote]splicer wrote:
Of course, weightlifters are more powerful than power-lifters. P=F(d)/t, that is power equals force multiplied by distance divided by time. Now compare a max clean to a max deadlift. The weightlifter moves the bar further and faster than the powerlifter. The difference in distance is greater if you compare a sumo style powerlifter to weightlifter. The weightlifter moves the bar from floor to racked on shoulders in less than a second. How long does a max deadlift take? I will be nice and say 3 seconds. How about mass? Granted a world class power-lifter can deadlift a shitload. However, the mass moved does compensate for the other variables.

Example:

Deadlift

Yuriy Fedorenko 405 kilos!

Clean and Jerk

Leonid Taranenko 242 kilos

Bodyweight of both athletes at time of lift 110 kilos.

Now I will be generous and say the distance the bar is lifted is the same, to the top of thighs for Fedorenko racked on the shoulders in full squat for Taranenko. Furthermore, I will say that floor to shoulders took Taranenko one full second, which is not likely, it must assuredly occured in less than a second. The deadlift for Fedorenko 3 seconds a very, very generous value.

Power output Fedorenko:

P=405(10)(1)/3 =1350 watts

Power output Taranenko:

P=242(10)(1)/1 =2420 watts

where 10 is the acceleration due to gravity and the 1 in the numerator is the distance.

Also consider that Fedorenko put his bar down whereas Taranenko stood up took a deep breath and then lifted his bar over his head! Again producing power output equivalent to his clean.

So weightlifters are more powerful. The physics speaks for itself. As far as athleticism, well power and athleticism are joined at the hip. Which group is stronger? Well strength is really another way of saying how much work can you do, where Work=F(d). I will leave that open to discussion, but my personal opinion is that the power-lifters stripped of their gear and challenged to a series of lifts, for instance overhead press, deadlift with feet on blocks, and max chin-ups (corrected for body weight) would get destroyed by a group of weightlifters.[/quote]

So if a long distance runner picked up a decent sized rock, and ran with it durring a 25K run, would that mean he did more work, and is therefore stronger than any other athlete?

Lets say the rock weighed 2kilos, and…oh never mind.

46

Some people are better at lifting overhead than they are at benching, due who knows what anatomical / physiological reason.

If someone is competitive at oly then no doubt they are good at overhead.

If someone is competitive at powerlifing then they are prob. better at benching.

So for most at the top level a crossover probably isn’t that easy.

Note this doesn’t apply to everyone but I’d say it is pretty general.

Not to mention the years of training specialising in the different lifts during the prime of your professional life - a prime that you cannot have twice, when you switch to another specialty.

Also I’d say oly takes a lot more skill and would be harder to pickup, so oly to power would probably be easier to switch over.

I think people who ask the original question “who is stronger” don’t fully grasp how specific the strength adaption is. You adapt specifically to what you do. You can’t really compare the two.

If you have an orchard growing apples and one growing oranges, which is the better farm?

47

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
Of course, weightlifters are more powerful than power-lifters. P=F(d)/t, that is power equals force multiplied by distance divided by time. Now compare a max clean to a max deadlift. The weightlifter moves the bar further and faster than the powerlifter. The difference in distance is greater if you compare a sumo style powerlifter to weightlifter. The weightlifter moves the bar from floor to racked on shoulders in less than a second. How long does a max deadlift take? I will be nice and say 3 seconds. How about mass? Granted a world class power-lifter can deadlift a shitload. However, the mass moved does compensate for the other variables.

Example:

Deadlift

Yuriy Fedorenko 405 kilos!

Clean and Jerk

Leonid Taranenko 242 kilos

Bodyweight of both athletes at time of lift 110 kilos.

Now I will be generous and say the distance the bar is lifted is the same, to the top of thighs for Fedorenko racked on the shoulders in full squat for Taranenko. Furthermore, I will say that floor to shoulders took Taranenko one full second, which is not likely, it must assuredly occured in less than a second. The deadlift for Fedorenko 3 seconds a very, very generous value.

Power output Fedorenko:

P=405(10)(1)/3 =1350 watts

Power output Taranenko:

P=242(10)(1)/1 =2420 watts

where 10 is the acceleration due to gravity and the 1 in the numerator is the distance.

Also consider that Fedorenko put his bar down whereas Taranenko stood up took a deep breath and then lifted his bar over his head! Again producing power output equivalent to his clean.

So weightlifters are more powerful. The physics speaks for itself. As far as athleticism, well power and athleticism are joined at the hip. Which group is stronger? Well strength is really another way of saying how much work can you do, where Work=F(d). I will leave that open to discussion, but my personal opinion is that the power-lifters stripped of their gear and challenged to a series of lifts, for instance overhead press, deadlift with feet on blocks, and max chin-ups (corrected for body weight) would get destroyed by a group of weightlifters.

So if a long distance runner picked up a decent sized rock, and ran with it durring a 25K run, would that mean he did more work, and is therefore stronger than any other athlete?

Lets say the rock weighed 2kilos, and…oh never mind.[/quote]

Not unless he ran the distance very quickly - power = rate of doing work ie time is a critical constraint!

48

[quote]Cymru wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
splicer wrote:
Of course, weightlifters are more powerful than power-lifters. P=F(d)/t, that is power equals force multiplied by distance divided by time. Now compare a max clean to a max deadlift. The weightlifter moves the bar further and faster than the powerlifter. The difference in distance is greater if you compare a sumo style powerlifter to weightlifter. The weightlifter moves the bar from floor to racked on shoulders in less than a second. How long does a max deadlift take? I will be nice and say 3 seconds. How about mass? Granted a world class power-lifter can deadlift a shitload. However, the mass moved does compensate for the other variables.

Example:

Deadlift

Yuriy Fedorenko 405 kilos!

Clean and Jerk

Leonid Taranenko 242 kilos

Bodyweight of both athletes at time of lift 110 kilos.

Now I will be generous and say the distance the bar is lifted is the same, to the top of thighs for Fedorenko racked on the shoulders in full squat for Taranenko. Furthermore, I will say that floor to shoulders took Taranenko one full second, which is not likely, it must assuredly occured in less than a second. The deadlift for Fedorenko 3 seconds a very, very generous value.

Power output Fedorenko:

P=405(10)(1)/3 =1350 watts

Power output Taranenko:

P=242(10)(1)/1 =2420 watts

where 10 is the acceleration due to gravity and the 1 in the numerator is the distance.

Also consider that Fedorenko put his bar down whereas Taranenko stood up took a deep breath and then lifted his bar over his head! Again producing power output equivalent to his clean.

So weightlifters are more powerful. The physics speaks for itself. As far as athleticism, well power and athleticism are joined at the hip. Which group is stronger? Well strength is really another way of saying how much work can you do, where Work=F(d). I will leave that open to discussion, but my personal opinion is that the power-lifters stripped of their gear and challenged to a series of lifts, for instance overhead press, deadlift with feet on blocks, and max chin-ups (corrected for body weight) would get destroyed by a group of weightlifters.

So if a long distance runner picked up a decent sized rock, and ran with it durring a 25K run, would that mean he did more work, and is therefore stronger than any other athlete?

Lets say the rock weighed 2kilos, and…oh never mind.

Not unless he ran the distance very quickly - power = rate of doing work ie time is a critical constraint!
[/quote]

actually, in that instance no “work” is being done since teh direction of movement is perpendicular to the resistance being applied … thus showing the fallacy of equating physics terms to what we normally mean

49

to me this question is a no brainer. Olympic lifters, hands down, are stronger than powerlifters. In fact i dont even think its close.

A previous comment mentioned an “olympic squat” vs a “powerlifting squat.” I think what he is referring to is that oly lifters squat ass to grass every single rep.

Powerlifters rarely go any more than a few inches below parallel. Ive seen oly lifters, completely raw, not even a belt, squat over 700 for triples going low as humanly possible. I dont think there are many powerlifters that could do this.

This isnt even a world record lift and there is absolutely no powerlifer in the world that could even come close having over 550lbs over their head. - YouTube

If any powerlifters disagree with me i challenge them to attempt to snatch or clean and jerk. Once they try snatching they will realize how weak they are compared to oly lifters.

50

The great problem with everyone saying how strong weightlifters are over their head is this…

They’re not pressing the weight up!! The y dip and drive, the weight’s pushed up from the hips, knees and ankles, then the lifter drops down under the bar.

At no point is it being pressed. Of course they’re strong at pressing, but in a strict standing press better than a powerifter? (one woh actually trains the overhead press now!) I think it would be close.

51

[quote]Hanley wrote:
The great problem with everyone saying how strong weightlifters are over their head is this…

They’re not pressing the weight up!! The y dip and drive, the weight’s pushed up from the hips, knees and ankles, then the lifter drops down under the bar.

At no point is it being pressed. Of course they’re strong at pressing, but in a strict standing press better than a powerifter? (one woh actually trains the overhead press now!) I think it would be close.[/quote]

simply holding 550 lbs over your head says enough, i dont care how you get it there

52

I really apologize if this has been brought up before, but aren’t powerlifter’s stronger by definition?

I always thought powerlifting was a test of maximal strength in the big 3, whereas the C&J and Snatch are Strength/Speed or power lifts.

Powerlifters are ALL about maximal strength, while for weightlifters it’s only half the equation, so aren’t powerlifters stronger, since that is all their event tests.

That’s not to say the Oly lifters aren’t strong or that powerlifters aren’t powerful, it’s just that each sport tests different things.

If the question is which is more powerful, the answer would be weightlifters.

Asking which is stronger seems like asking who can sprint faster a 100M runner or a 400M runner, well obviously a 100M runner, because that’s the only component of their sport.

53

[quote]Cymru wrote:
Not unless he ran the distance very quickly - power = rate of doing work ie time is a critical constraint!
[/quote]

The person I was quoting was relating strength to work (after already talking about power), so that was why I only used work in my mockery.

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
actually, in that instance no “work” is being done since teh direction of movement is perpendicular to the resistance being applied … thus showing the fallacy of equating physics terms to what we normally mean[/quote]

There’s resistance from the friction of the air he is running through, but I guess the weight of the rock wouldn’t matter as much, but would add a tiny bit of resistance.

If you don’t take friction into account, then pushing a car across a flat surface would equate to no work being done, but we all know that’s not true, the rolling friction is opposing the force the person is putting on the car.

54

as a group? weightlifters.

55

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:

If you don’t take friction into account, then pushing a car across a flat surface would equate to no work being done, but we all know that’s not true, the rolling friction is opposing the force the person is putting on the car.[/quote]

I’m just pointing out the absurdity of using ForcexDistance as a rational definition of work.

56

[quote]BIG_DAWS wrote:
Hanley wrote:
The great problem with everyone saying how strong weightlifters are over their head is this…

They’re not pressing the weight up!! The y dip and drive, the weight’s pushed up from the hips, knees and ankles, then the lifter drops down under the bar.

At no point is it being pressed. Of course they’re strong at pressing, but in a strict standing press better than a powerifter? (one woh actually trains the overhead press now!) I think it would be close.

simply holding 550 lbs over your head says enough, i dont care how you get it there[/quote]

Once again, Hanley brings up an excellent point.

Big_Daws, as far as as holding 550lbs overhead, I agree, thats impressive. Of course, the same people who say that are usually the first to condemn Rychlak because his bench was assisted - despite teh fact that jsut holding 1000 lbs is impressive.

What I dont understand is why people are using carryover to the other discipline as some measure of strength. O-lifting is so technical, it takes a LONG time to learn to properly execute teh lifts, so OF COURSE PLers wont necessarily equal the O-lifters in the classical lifts.

The bottom line is that O-lifting is as much (some would say moreso) an acquired skill as it is a display of strength

57

everyone is mixing up explosive strength and maximal strength.

maximal strength- is the amount of force that one can exert under voluntary effort. This strength quality is seen during a powerlifting competition. Each athlete tries to lift the greatest amount of weight.

explosive strength- is the ability to express significant tension in minimal time.

olympic lifters are very explosive and have very good max strength.But powerlifters train solely for max strength.it is obvious that powerlifters are stronger in terms of max strength. But, olympic lifters could probably lift more in olympic lifts because of how explosive they are and their good techniques.

thats not to say that a small powerlifter is weaker than the strongest olympic lifter, but pound for pound, on average powerlifters have better max strength(are stronger). Argument settled. Those are the facts my friends, not my opinion.

58

This has definitely been beaten to death.

This is how I see it: taking the world’s best (currently and historically) from each sport, because that is really what we’re talking about. You can’t compare Dimas or Rez. to a middle of the pack, or even upper middle PL. Dimas/Rez both have untold records, and are perennial top finishers/champs.

So, taking the top from each sport

Max. Strength in big 3–PL
Power–Oly
Technique–Oly
Overall athleticism–both. This may be disagreeable, but I say this because Louie’s guys can do some crazy box jumps, and are pretty well conditioned. I’ve seen a lot of PL guys that can compete in strongman (some train to compete for both), and some crazy jumpers. Likewise, Oly lifters have a well deserved rep for athleticism from plyos and other stuff Louie has taken from them :). Remember we’re talking about the top guys in both sports here.

Crossover to the other sport takes training and conditioning the specific musculature, and especially tendons/connective tissue, required by the sport. PLers would have difficulty conditioning their shoulders and elbows to take the kind of abuse the Oly guys have grown accustomed to. Oly guys would have a hard time dealing with the chest strength and groove of the bench, esp. because training the chest is not something that they do. I’ve heard it said that a tight chest will kill the ability to fluidly execute the Oly lifts at elite levels.

Anyway, we’re all brothers in iron, so just give props where props are due. It’s all personal preference as to whether you’d rather do one or the other.

59

Powerlifting is all about reducing the distance the bar has to be moved so that more mass can be moved. The drastic back arch in the bench, the sumo style in the deadlift, and the high, bent-over squat all reduce the distance the bar must move.

The sport is judged mostly by whether the bar moves from point A to point B to point A: lock-out to chest to lock-out, or standing, “parallel”, standing, or floor, lock-out, “down”. Where the crucial factor is the concentric movement, incomplete concentric movement, no lift.

What is being judged is ability to do work. W=F(d)=mgd. Mass of barbell, gravity and distance of the concentric movement, what other factors are in play? Do you have a better definition of strength?

Weightlifters are constantly moving weight much greater distances than powerlifters. They squat with the bar high and chest up and sit all the way in the hole. If you compare a weightlifter and a powerlifter of equal heights squating the weightlifter is moving the bar 2-3 times the distance of the powerlifter. When you plug mass into the equation powerlifters are going to lose most of the time.

Then you add the ridiculous support gear used by powelifters, squat suit, 8" belts, huge wraps, double denim shirts, the bench…and you may not even really have a demonstration of strength at all, just a parlor trick.

Oh yeah, I brought up power to point out that not only are powerlifters weaker than weightlifters, by far, they are idiots who incorrectly named their sport.

60

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

Once again, Hanley brings up an excellent point.
[/quote]

Oh stop, you’re making me blush!!

To the physics guy… the shortest distance between 2 points is a staight line right? Well logically it would follow that the most efficent bar path is straight up and down. But you go on to say about the crazy forward lean squats powerlifters use. If anything, by your logic they’re making it harder for themselves and needing to do more work.

It’s obvious you’ve got a hard on for olympic lifters, and pretty much nothing anyone on this thread can say will change things, but please stop using flawed reasoning to try and sway people to your argument.

The funny thing is, that competitive athletes in either disicpline probably don’t care about who’s strong. It simply doesn’t matter to them. The ones shouting about how they’re stronger than the others are clearly very insecure if they feel the need to validate themselves.

I would have thought this point alone is enough to show they’re not strong. Regardless of what group they come from.