Strength vs Size for Nattys

Training
121

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What I have learned does not mean that they sound like a Nutritionists textbook when they speak.

95% of the crap most people worry about on these types of forums is useless mental masturbation used by people who often don’t and won’t ever stand out in a crowd from the average “frat boy training for abs”.[/quote]

I think it says something that today, compared to maybe 10-20 years ago, you can actually find a good number of guys who not only walk the walk physique wise, but possess serious advanced degrees enough to support and fully understand what they’re doing.

You’ve been prone in the past to point out that people on “these types of forums” (what other sites are we referring to?) worry too much about minor concerns. In the regard of missing the big picture, for many cases, I wholeheartedly agree. However, when the average gym rat, or anyone interested in actually learning about the pursuit of building muscle, is being made more aware of actual sources of information beyond ‘ask the biggest guy at your gym’, or the old favorite “lift big, eat big”, I can’t help but think it’s a good thing for the sport as a whole.

S

122

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

However, when the average gym rat, or anyone interested in actually learning about the pursuit of building muscle, is being made more aware of actual sources of information beyond ‘ask the biggest guy at your gym’, or the old favorite “lift big, eat big”, I can’t help but think it’s a good thing for the sport as a whole.

S[/quote]

It would be if that were all that was happening…but it isn’t. What is happening is people discrediting what people say based on steroid use. We just saw that happen when Whiteflash questioned Bauber’s advice…based only on the fact that he used steroids.

Not to mention that someone who walks the walk to me is someone who got really big and strong as well…not someone who read a lot about it.

“Lift big and eat big” is sometimes what someone needs to focus on in majority. It takes experience to know when that is.

123

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is one reason the questions being asked lately are irking me. It seems to be common “bro science” now that you have to train in some different and strange way to get big on steroids than you do if natural.[/quote]
I want to ask one more time if you think this is my position. Because I’m not confident you ever understood what I was saying.

All I was trying to get at is that people who are natural need to train right. There are people on steroids who train in absurd fucking ways and make progress anyway. If you’re natural, you shouldn’t train like them, because you will probably make zero progress.

There are also people like the Lilliebridges, Malanichev, Coan, who know how to train right, and you shouldn’t fuck with anything they say whether you’re natural or not.[/quote]

Dude, don’t worry about justifying yourself to the Brofessor. Your topic and the general discussion was good, one of the best the horrendous BSL forum has had.

124

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It would be if that were all that was happening…but it isn’t. What is happening is people discrediting what people say based on steroid use. We just saw that happen when Whiteflash questioned Bauber’s advice…based only on the fact that he used steroids.[/quote]

Yes, I do believe that things in that thread became grossly oversimplified, but in certain cases, you can’t blindly follow an enhanced users’ program. Is it solely because of PEDs? No, but to deny the better recovery abilities is just silly.

[quote]
Not to mention that someone who walks the walk to me is someone who got really big and strong as well…not someone who read a lot about it.[/quote]

Yep, I’m pretty sure that’s the definition just about 100% of the people on here would share as well. No one ever said otherwise.

[quote]
“Lift big and eat big” is sometimes what someone needs to focus on in majority. It takes experience to know when that is.[/quote]

Yes it does, but sadly, that advice instead of actually learning how to assess your own training variables and progress has left many unhappy trainers in its wake.

S

125

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

Yes, I do believe that things in that thread became grossly oversimplified,[/quote]

…which is why I spoke up about it.

[quote]

but in certain cases, you can’t blindly follow an enhanced users’ program. Is it solely because of PEDs? No, but to deny the better recovery abilities is just silly.[/quote]

You can’t blindly follow ANYONE’S PROGRAM. Being enhanced has nothing to do with it.

[quote]

Yep, I’m pretty sure that’s the definition just about 100% of the people on here would share as well. No one ever said otherwise. [/quote]

Then fine, we are on the same page. Someone who walks the walk has huge arms, legs, chest, back and everything else. I won’t be listening to the guy whop read a lot and can quote everyone on the planet…but looks like he just started lifting.

[quote]

[quote]
“Lift big and eat big” is sometimes what someone needs to focus on in majority. It takes experience to know when that is.[/quote]

Yes it does, but sadly, that advice instead of actually learning how to assess your own training variables and progress has left many unhappy trainers in its wake.

S[/quote]

That might be because they lack the basic genetics or determination…or maybe they get caught up in those small details…because frankly, everyone I know who did that for a few years built really big muscles from it.

126

I was in a hurry heading out the door, and left that vauge post. It just seems that everyone has this string of justifications (if thats a word) when I ask them if they lift or not. Ya I lift ‘’ but ‘’ I’m a natural, raw, unequipped, what ever. I don’t get it, mabey it’s the internet making guys feel insecure, because it’s common place on the net, to see a guy with 24inch arms, or squtting 1000lbs, I don’t know

It seems to me, (it could be my golden memories)back in the day, seeing a guy full squatting 405 for reps wasn’t a big deal ( funny pants and a fanny packs )I just don’t see it anymore. I have 600 member’s, and I have 2 guys that can full squat 405 for reps. The rest of the guys are saying, ‘‘if I was on juice I could squat that much too’’ Seems to me we’ve lost somthing along the way, a work ethic, a belief in our selves. There’s no more or less juice, than there used to be, and we suposedly have come so far with training, nutrition, and supps, but I don’t see as many big strong guys.

I got my first job as a trainer, back in 94, and worked my way up to being a gym owner along the way, so these are just observations from the trenches, but I kind of get what ProX is saying, I’m just not good at putting it into words. It just seems like a lot less heavy lifting and muscle building going is on, and a lot more justification. haha, just random thoughts from an old man I guess ( used to have to walk to school up hill both ways when I was a kid) Latter

127

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
…should jus be weightlifting vrs weak and lazy, Period.
[/quote]
I agree with almost all of what you said except this part.

We are all people, all human beings, and we should be helping everyone. We are no better than anyone else just because we lift weights, have 19"arms, have a 500+ pound squat, step on a stage/platform/whatever.

That sort of attitude and outlook is what causes the arguments and strife that have recently made a resurgence on this board. It isn’t an “us vs them” thing, well it shouldn’t be.

Lifting weights, being strong, getting big is a hobby for almost everyone who enjoys it. A hobby doesn’t make you better than someone else because they have different hobbies.

/rant :wink:
Most of that isn’t directly addressing you Jake. It just happened to coincide with your post and piggyback off of it.

128

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
I was in a hurry heading out the door, and left that vauge post. It just seems that everyone has this string of justifications (if thats a word) when I ask them if they lift or not. Ya I lift ‘’ but ‘’ I’m a natural, raw, unequipped, what ever. [/quote]

I’ve noticed this as well. It seems that many lifters are getting better at NOT doing things than doing them.

“Yeah, I only squat 225, but I do it ATG, not parallel, and I don’t wear wraps or a belt or sleeves, and I don’t use a stretch reflex, and I never have a full meal in me, and I don’t get 8 hours of sleep at night, plus I don’t take creatine, and I never warm-up, and I haven’t read how to train”

It’s this “implied strength” notion, that surely they would be badass if they would do all of those things, but since they don’t, you just have to imagine.

129

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
I was in a hurry heading out the door, and left that vauge post. It just seems that everyone has this string of justifications (if thats a word) when I ask them if they lift or not. Ya I lift ‘’ but ‘’ I’m a natural, raw, unequipped, what ever. [/quote]

I’ve noticed this as well. It seems that many lifters are getting better at NOT doing things than doing them.

“Yeah, I only squat 225, but I do it ATG, not parallel, and I don’t wear wraps or a belt or sleeves, and I don’t use a stretch reflex, and I never have a full meal in me, and I don’t get 8 hours of sleep at night, plus I don’t take creatine, and I never warm-up, and I haven’t read how to train”

It’s this “implied strength” notion, that surely they would be badass if they would do all of those things, but since they don’t, you just have to imagine.
[/quote]
Lol, I call this “getting the fourth white light”.

“I benched with a close grip and no arch and an extra long pause and no wrist wraps”

Okay… but no one asked you to. You don’t get bonus points at a meet for making the lift harder.

130

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
It seems to me, (it could be my golden memories)back in the day, seeing a guy full squatting 405 for reps wasn’t a big deal ( funny pants and a fanny packs )I just don’t see it anymore.
[/quote]

I think the answer is to bring back old fashion trends in the gym. Always getting PRs when I wear my Zubaz.

That and there are a good amount of dudes in my generation who need to harden the fuck up and drop the excuses. When I was at my University gym there was maybe 5 other guys who I looked at and felt that I could train with. In a school of 5,000 (most of the students are “fit” and use the gym) how are there only 5 guys who I thought brought any kind of intensity and planning in the gym?

I now go to the gym where I am easily one of the smallest and weakest guys there (quite a few guys who use go there as well as nattys). I also happen to be one of the youngest members. I do not think it is a coincidence. We all are friends and help each other but no could give two shits what your program is. As long as you are there to train. Gyms could use a good dose of everyone minding their own fucking business and worrying about their own progress.

131

[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
Gyms could use a good dose of everyone minding their own fucking business and worrying about their own progress.[/quote]
Kinda seems like this last statement contradicts the rest of your post.

The vast majority of people do indeed go to the gym just to get “fit” and obtain a body just good enough to attract the opposite sex. It doesn’t take much if anything beyond good beginner gains to acheive this. Not many people have the goal of getting massive.

132

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
Gyms could use a good dose of everyone minding their own fucking business and worrying about their own progress.[/quote]
Kinda seems like this last statement contradicts the rest of your post.

The vast majority of people do indeed go to the gym just to get “fit” and obtain a body just good enough to attract the opposite sex. It doesn’t take much if anything beyond good beginner gains to acheive this. Not many people have the goal of getting massive.[/quote]

How does it contradict my point? I never once said I judge or care what the people at my Uni gym do. I know exactly what their goals are. But these same guys who come in and program hop and never compound lift feel the urge to judge the 5 of us whose goals are to be as big and strong as we can be. They talk shit about our programs, try to offer unsolicited advice, and judge our lifestyle.

I never once concerned myself with someone else in the gym is doing. I was stating an observation that in a gym filled with my generation everyone was in each other’s business and full of judgement.

At my new gym, filled with older lifters and more serious guys, no one is concerned with each other’s routines. My first day at the gym I squatted with a guy who placed 8th in his weight class at NPC Nationals. Despite having thesame goals (quad development) he had a different program than I did but never once told me I was wrong.

133

[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
How does it contradict my point? I never once said I judge or care what the people at my Uni gym do. I know exactly what their goals are. But these same guys who come in and program hop and never compound lift feel the urge to judge the 5 of us whose goals are to be as big and strong as we can be. They talk shit about our programs, try to offer unsolicited advice, and judge our lifestyle.

I never once concerned myself with someone else in the gym is doing. I was stating an observation that in a gym filled with my generation everyone was in each other’s business and full of judgement.

At my new gym, filled with older lifters and more serious guys, no one is concerned with each other’s routines. My first day at the gym I squatted with a guy who placed 8th in his weight class at NPC Nationals. Despite having thesame goals (quad development) he had a different program than I did but never once told me I was wrong. [/quote]
Fair enough. All this was missing in your previous post. It came across to me as if you were judging them for not wanting to be huge.

134

gregron

AnytimeJake wrote:
…should jus be weightlifting vrs weak and lazy, Period.

I agree with almost all of what you said except this part.

Your right on the money here, it was a statement to make a point with that post, and it’s not actually how I feel.

In order to be profitable I opened a franchise gym, but in the back I have real ‘‘old school’’ weight pit, with racks and specialty bars, chains, and what not. So people come in and join, for the shiney cardio equipment up front. Then I do my best ( especialy with the kids) to get them into real lifting, not everyone wants to be big and jacked, but everyone can benifit from real weight training, and I do my best. I love walking in my place, and seeing a line up of kids at the squat rack, while the pec-dec sits empty. Also, even though my heart is in athletic training, I’ve become known for, and good at, helping over weight people, get slim. It seems the same routine’s that help young hockey player’s get fast and strong, also work real well to help over weight people drop 100lbs, who knew.

Anyway gregron your right, and what I say, isn’t always what I mean I guess, I think everyone can benifit from weightlifting

135

[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
I never once concerned myself with someone else in the gym is doing. I was stating an observation that in a gym filled with my generation everyone was in each other’s business and full of judgement. [/quote]

I have to agree with this. These are the types who see you curling a 55lbs dumbbell and then run online to tell everyone that is ALL a big guy could lift.

I’m so much in a zone when I lift lately I think people are resistant to bother me at all.

136

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
How does it contradict my point? I never once said I judge or care what the people at my Uni gym do. I know exactly what their goals are. But these same guys who come in and program hop and never compound lift feel the urge to judge the 5 of us whose goals are to be as big and strong as we can be. They talk shit about our programs, try to offer unsolicited advice, and judge our lifestyle.

I never once concerned myself with someone else in the gym is doing. I was stating an observation that in a gym filled with my generation everyone was in each other’s business and full of judgement.

At my new gym, filled with older lifters and more serious guys, no one is concerned with each other’s routines. My first day at the gym I squatted with a guy who placed 8th in his weight class at NPC Nationals. Despite having thesame goals (quad development) he had a different program than I did but never once told me I was wrong. [/quote]
Fair enough. All this was missing in your previous post. It came across to me as if you were judging them for not wanting to be huge.[/quote]

Yeah sorry. I guess I didn’t connect all the dots in my first post. Thanks for making me clarify though.

137

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
gregron

I agree with almost all of what you said except this part.

Your right on the money here, it was a statement to make a point with that post, and it’s not actually how I feel.

In order to be profitable I opened a franchise gym, but in the back I have real ‘‘old school’’ weight pit, with racks and specialty bars, chains, and what not. So people come in and join, for the shiney cardio equipment up front. Then I do my best ( especialy with the kids) to get them into real lifting, not everyone wants to be big and jacked, but everyone can benifit from real weight training, and I do my best. I love walking in my place, and seeing a line up of kids at the squat rack, while the pec-dec sits empty. Also, even though my heart is in athletic training, I’ve become known for, and good at, helping over weight people, get slim. It seems the same routine’s that help young hockey player’s get fast and strong, also work real well to help over weight people drop 100lbs, who knew.

Anyway gregron your right, and what I say, isn’t always what I mean I guess, I think everyone can benifit from weightlifting

[/quote]
I hear ya big man.

That sounds like an awesome gym. I would love to lift in a place like that… The pec deck is always full at my gym :frowning:

138

really great topic imo

Csulli what do you think about this natural mashup:
the crop of pretty awesome natty bodybuilders semi-internetfamous who are mostly are focusing on progressive overload in the “main” lifts
vs
someone on a John Meadows program that doesn’t repeat a single training session ever

139

^^examples of pretty awesome natty bodybuilders semi-Internet famous?

For reference of course.

140

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
I was in a hurry heading out the door, and left that vauge post. It just seems that everyone has this string of justifications (if thats a word) when I ask them if they lift or not. Ya I lift ‘’ but ‘’ I’m a natural, raw, unequipped, what ever. I don’t get it, mabey it’s the internet making guys feel insecure, because it’s common place on the net, to see a guy with 24inch arms, or squtting 1000lbs, I don’t know

It seems to me, (it could be my golden memories)back in the day, seeing a guy full squatting 405 for reps wasn’t a big deal ( funny pants and a fanny packs )I just don’t see it anymore. I have 600 member’s, and I have 2 guys that can full squat 405 for reps. The rest of the guys are saying, ‘‘if I was on juice I could squat that much too’’ Seems to me we’ve lost somthing along the way, a work ethic, a belief in our selves. There’s no more or less juice, than there used to be, and we suposedly have come so far with training, nutrition, and supps, but I don’t see as many big strong guys.

I got my first job as a trainer, back in 94, and worked my way up to being a gym owner along the way, so these are just observations from the trenches, but I kind of get what ProX is saying, I’m just not good at putting it into words. It just seems like a lot less heavy lifting and muscle building going is on, and a lot more justification. haha, just random thoughts from an old man I guess ( used to have to walk to school up hill both ways when I was a kid) Latter
[/quote]

I refuse to believe that there wasn’t “haters” back then as well, there are just so many avenues for jealous or negative people to down someones strength or accomplishments today, aspects of humanity does not change. I also think largely because of different avenues of finding information in our current age there has been more understanding about teh roidz and how while they are a great help in achieveing your asthetic / strength / performance goals they are not a magic pill and the sides are real and not simply relegating to RAGE!

20 years ago if you asked me about steroids I would have went down the company line about how they will kill you, turn you into a violent uncontrollable person…ask me now and I have a much better, much less ignorant informed opinion.

Im not sure if there is more or less “juice” than there was back then, but it is certainly easier to obtain.